PLA's Type 052D destroyers can beat Vietnam's Su-22s: report

[BoQ77]

If you guys so sure about the win for 052D, then tell us how 052D detect and intercept approaching Sukhoi fighters at distance 125km and altitude 800 - 5,000m.

 

[Penguin]

During desert storm 1991 few Oliver hazard Perry frigates were hit by exocet missiles launched from Iraqi's mirage f1s. There was once an aircraft carrier almost hit by exocet when the cruisers and destroyers failed to intercept. A British ship saved the carrier as they knew how to defeat the missile. British forced french to tell them the secret during Falklands war after frustrated with exocets deadly attacks on British fleet.

OHPs? Wrong war! There we NO Perry frigates hit during the Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991), codenamed Operation Desert Shield (2 August 1990 – 17 January 1991) for operations leading to the buildup of troops and defense of Saudi Arabia and Operation Desert Storm (17 January 1991 – 28 February 1991).

There was a singhle OHP by the name of USS Stark that was hit on 17 May 1987, by two Exocet anti-ship missiles fired from an Iraqi Mirage F1 aircraft during the Iran–Iraq War. The plane had taken off from Shaibah at 8 pm and had flown south into the Persian Gulf. The pilot fired the first Exocet missile from a range of 22.5 nautical miles (41.7 km), and the second from 15.5 nautical miles (28.7 km), just about the time Stark issued a standard warning by radio. The frigate did not detect the missiles with radar; warning was given by the lookout only moments before the missiles struck. The first penetrated the port-side hull and failed to detonate, but left flaming rocket fuel in its path. The second entered at almost the same point, and, leaving a 3-by-4-meter gash, exploded in crew quarters. 37 sailors were killed and 21 were injured.
No weapons were fired in defense of Stark. The Phalanx CIWS remained in standby mode, Mark 36 SRBOC countermeasures were not armed until seconds before the missile hit. The attacking Exocet missiles and Mirage aircraft were in a blindspot of the STIR fire control director (part of the Mk 92 Guided Missile Fire Control System), and the Oto Melara Mk 75 76 mm/62 caliber naval gun, but in the clear for the MK 92 CAS (Combined Antenna System, primary search and tracking radar of the Mk 92 Guided Missile Fire Control System) and the Mk 13 Mod 4 single-arm launcher. The ship failed to maneuver to bring its Mk 75 to bear before the first missile hit.
On fire and listing, the frigate was brought under control by its crew during the night. The ship made its way to Bahrain where, after temporary repairs by the tender USS Acadia to make her seaworthy, she returned to her home port of Mayport, Florida, under her own power. The ship was eventually repaired at Ingalls Shipbuilding in Mississippi for $142 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31)

Read up on the tanker war section of the Iraq-iran war (September 1980 to August 1988).
Iran–Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for that carrier story.... yeah, that's the right war but the wrong story, wrong missile and wrong explanation.

Gulf War
On February 25, 1991 a shore-based Iraqi launcher fired two Silkworm missiles at the USS Missouri which was in company with the USS Jarrett and HMS Gloucester. A Sea Dart missile from HMS Gloucester shot down one Silkworm and the other missed, crashing into the ocean

Silkworm (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The night before the 24 February ground offensive began, Missouri [a WW2 era Iowa class battleship) trained her guns on Faylaka Island in a pyrotechnic display intended to convince Iraqi troops along the Kuwaiti coast that the sea-borne invasion was at hand. Wisconsin, accompanied by USSMcInerney (FFG 8) moved in close to drive that point home.
Twenty-four hours into the ground campaign, Iraqis manning the Kuwait Silkworm missile sites fired two anti-ship missiles atMissouri. The first landed harmlessly between Missouri and USS Jarrett (FFG 33). The second, headed straight for Missouri, but was intercepted by two Sea Dart missiles from the British warship HMS Gloucester (D 96)

Thunder and Lightning - The war with Iraq
(see about half way down the page)

There were no other assigned escorts but the frigates Jarret and Gloucester (no cruisers, no destroyers). The Silkworm is not a particularly sophisticated missile and poses a less challenging target compared to the newer generation Exocet. It does carry a larger warhead which gives potential to inflict more serious damage. Nevertheless, I very much doubt even a Silkworm (i.e. a single 300~500 kg time-delayed semi-armour-piercing high-explosive warhead) would have posed a very significant threat to the heavily armored WW2 battleship, which at that time packed no fewer than 4 Phalanx CIWS (which it did not need to engage)

As for damage from seamines, no frigates. A LHA and a CG were damaged

naval threat was made more credible by an extensive operation to clear the mines Iraqi forces had sown in the northern part of the Gulf, specifically to defend against a landing. In this process the cruiser USS Princeton and the amphibious carrier USS Tripoli, the latter acting as a mine countermeasures command ship, were damaged.

Gulf War 20th: The War at Sea | Defense Media Network

While sweeping further toward shore, the task group was targeted by Iraqi fire control radars associated with Silkworm missile sites inside Kuwait. Task force ships moved out of Silkworm range and worked to locate the radar site. During those maneuvers on 18 February, Iraqi mines found their mark. Within three hours of each other, Tripoli and USS Princeton (CG 59) were rocked by exploding mines. As damage control teams successfully overcame flres and flooding aboard Tripoli and Princeton, Impervious,Leader and Avenger searched for additional mines in the area. Adroit led the salvage tug USS Beaufort (ATS 2) toward Princeton to tow her to safety.
Tripoli was able to continue her mission for several days before she was relieved by USS La Salle (AGF 3) and USS New Orleans (LPH 11) and proceeded to Bahrain for repairs. New Orleans provided the helicopter deck while the mine group staff moved aboard La Salle to coordinate the operation. Princeton restored her TLAM strike and AEGIS anti-air warfare defense capabilities within fifteen minutes of the mine strike, whereupon she reassumed duties as local anti-air warfare coordinator and remained on station, providing defense for the mine countermeasures group for an additional 30 hours, until relieved.
Charts and intelligence captured from Iraq showed the mine field where Tripoli and Princeton were hit was one of six laid in a 150-mile arc from Faylaka Island to the Saudi-Kuwaiti border. Within that arc, there were four additional mine-lines --a total of more than 1,000 mines --laid over a five month period.

Thunder and Lightning - The war with Iraq

 

[BoQ77]

Su-22 are obsolete. It is long known they cannot survive type 52D air defense.

Yes. they're so obsolete. But how long known, they can't survive against Type 052D ? while 052D commissioned in very short time and unproven? tell me how a ship like that detect and intercept a low altitude supersonic fighter.

Russian Su -24 scores off against the American "USS Donald Cook"

In another word, we don't know whether a Type 052D could defeat Su-22 with proper tactic and newest electronic stealth equipment called Talisman or not.

Not only Su-22, new order of Vietnam for Yak-130 also with Talisman-ready

Vietnam Su-22 with Talisman

17.08.2015 The flight tests with ADS 'Talisman' successfully accomplished in the customer's territory. In flight intercepts and air defense penetration ADS 'Talisman' confirmed its effectiveness. It was the 'electronic stealth' mode, particularly emphasized by the Customer, where contemporary fighter-interceptors failed to detect and 'kill' the aircraft fitted with ADS 'Talisman' throughout the whole time span of interception (attack).

 

[chauism]

So ship based SAM can shoot down airplanes, what is the news?

 

[BoQ77]

So ship based SAM can shoot down airplanes, what is the news?

Before, many Chinese specialists are still considering that Vietnam Su-22 is threat to their fleet in South China Sea, including Type-052C ( another so called Aegis destroyer ), but with newer Type-052D ( a new so-called Aegis destroyer ), they feel optimistic to claim that Vietnam Su-22 is no longer threat to their fleet.

In summary, the article claim that Type-052D could deny the attacks of Su-22, I guess. Because to state that Type-052D could hunt Su-22 make no logic. So as their logic, just put few Type 052D destroyers somewhere in South China Sea, they could intercept the Su-22 engagement.

With that conclusion, they feel more comfortable with the thinking of only 36 Su-30MK2 of VAF ( not with 38x Su-22 anymore )

But it's not simple like that. VAF keep research and find out many suitable tactic and training their pilots for their Su-22 to approach enemy destroyers at low altitude, from multiple direction.
Arm with better equipments including: AShM , Anti-radar, Electronic stealth pod ...

Those moves were proven in real situation, confirmed by both sides ( buyer, seller ), with pictures, articles.

The effectiveness as refered by a Russian Su-24 to fly overhead a US Aegis Destroyer safely ( undetected ) in Black Sea, a much narrower sea in comparison to South China Sea.

Su-22 with variable sweep wings could help to short take off, stable flying at low altitude ( above sea level ) while heavy loaded, fly high speed at low and high altitude ( run after unloaded ammunition )

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Before, many Chinese specialists are still considering that Vietnam Su-22 is threat to their fleet in South China Sea, including Type-052C ( another so called Aegis destroyer ), but with newer Type-052D ( a new so-called Aegis destroyer ), they feel optimistic to claim that Vietnam Su-22 is no longer threat to their fleet.

In summary, the article claim that Type-052D could deny the attacks of Su-22, I guess. Because to state that Type-052D could hunt Su-22 make no logic. So as their logic, just put few Type 052D destroyers somewhere in South China Sea, they could intercept the Su-22 engagement.

With that conclusion, they feel more comfortable with the thinking of only 36 Su-30MK2 of VAF ( not with 38x Su-22 anymore )

But it's not simple like that. VAF keep research and find out many suitable tactic and training their pilots for their Su-22 to approach enemy destroyers at low altitude, from multiple direction.
Arm with better equipments including: AShM , Anti-radar, Electronic stealth pod ...

Those moves were proven in real situation, confirmed by both sides ( buyer, seller ), with pictures, articles.

The effectiveness as refered by a Russian Su-24 to fly overhead a US Aegis Destroyer safely ( undetected ) in Black Sea, a much narrower sea in comparison to South China Sea.

I doubt you really understand what you are writing or what modern warfare encompassed hence I will save my breathe like many others in here educating you.

I doubt you understand the word "AEGIS" concept or how it works.

A quick one. If Vietnam were to engage in a new war with China today... it will be like what the ISIS is facing today in Syria after Russia entered into the war except it will be 5~10X more deadly.

Off course, Vietnam thinks that they can still employed the foxhole tactics and propaganda but the in the worst case scenario, Vietnam will be renamed the Province of ANNAM, PRC.

What I am trying to says is Vietnam is not the worthy competitor or match against China.

One day in Feb, 2015, I read China navy launched 3 warships whose tonnage is equal to the entire Vietnamese Navy's tonnage. Any one of the warship including smaller Type 056 or O54 frigate can easily intercept or destroyed the obsolete SU-22 and even the newer SU-30 acquired by Vietnam.

That is why China is using her CMS Coastguard vessels instead in order not to seen as bullying Vietnam.

 

[BoQ77]

I doubt you really understand what you are writing or what modern warfare encompassed hence I will save my breathe like many others in here educating you.

I doubt you understand the word "AEGIS" concept or how it works.

A quick one. If Vietnam were to engage in a new war with China today... it will be like what the ISIS is facing today in Syria after Russia entered into the war except it will be 5~10X more deadly.

Off course, Vietnam thinks that they can still employed the foxhole tactics and propaganda but the in the worst case scenario, Vietnam will be renamed the Province of ANNAM, PRC.

What I am trying to says is Vietnam is not the worthy competitor or match against China.

One day in Feb, 2015, I read China navy launched 3 warships whose tonnage is equal to the entire Vietnamese Navy's tonnage. Any one of the warship including smaller Type 056 or O54 frigate can easily intercept or destroyed the obsolete SU-22 and even the newer SU-30 acquired by Vietnam.

That is why China is using her CMS Coastguard vessels instead in order not to seen as bullying Vietnam.

Are you just spamming?

@Deino

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Are you spammer?
China has no Aegis combat system, I only use "so-called Aegis"

Really China has NO AEGIS. You sure or certain about that or understand what "AEGIS" concept is all about?

Right now, you are the only one SPAMMING the discussion with your silly, illogical and childish questions.

Hahaha

You are right in a way because China refer to them "Zhonghuashendun / 中华神盾" but it is only the Western Military experts who called AEGIS or more precisely Chinese AEGIS.

 

[Brainsucker]

@BoQ77 :

052D is one of the most advanced anti air warship in modern world. Plus, it won't be alone facing your SU-22. there are also AWACS and military sat work together with Chinese version of data-link to cover all the air space. So when your old SU-22 come to attack this ship, they will know first about your SU-22 where about before you can even detect 052D location. remember, 052D is a stealth destroyer.

Then, when it really happen, it's already game over to your SU-22.
First, you'll have to face 052D long range AAM missile. When you have an ace pilot who can survive that, you still have to face HQ-9 short to medium range. After that, there's still Chinese RAM, FL3000, then at the closer range, there's their finest CIWS. How could your Su-22 survive that, without modern data link and support from AWACS and satellite?

And I have to add that China has also their own electronic warfare weapons. So, as the best ship belong to them, 052D is surely equipped with the best ECM and other ECW that China possess today.

Basically, it is vastly superior than your SU-22.

 

[Deino]

... even more You have to ask, what kind of weapon could a Su-22 use against a ship of that class ? Is there anything available with such a long range that they are out of the ship's defence ?

I think these plain "this generation fighter against that generation" or this versus that are plain stupid and have more the level of Quartets (that card game) than a true discussion even if we are all - or at least most of us - are only enthusiasts.

Deino

 

[BoQ77]

@BoQ77 :

052D is one of the most advanced anti air warship in modern world. Plus, it won't be alone facing your SU-22. there are also AWACS and military sat work together with Chinese version of data-link to cover all the air space. So when your old SU-22 come to attack this ship, they will know first about your SU-22 where about before you can even detect 052D location. remember, 052D is a stealth destroyer.

Then, when it really happen, it's already game over to your SU-22.
First, you'll have to face 052D long range AAM missile. When you have an ace pilot who can survive that, you still have to face HQ-9 short to medium range. After that, there's still Chinese RAM, FL3000, then at the closer range, there's their finest CIWS. How could your Su-22 survive that, without modern data link and support from AWACS and satellite?

Okay, you are all experts, now experts just tell me, what is the longest range to counter supersonic aircraft at five thousand / five hundred meters altitude of Type 052D ?

In details,
1. The attackers would come at your weakest point not the strongest. When you put all assets you have on the table to just make sure more chance of win for destroyer, you just stop to study the case attackers could penetrate your sphere of protection.
2. Tell me how military sat could help? The Su-22 also not come alone,
3. "to face 052D long range AAM" and "HQ-9 shot to medium range" ... just tell me about the range of detection, of interception ... to a supersonic fighter fly at altitude 500 meters above sea water level. That's what the Su-22 would do in real combat.
4. At least 12 AShM from multiple direction from 6 Su 22 launched at distance over 100km away from the destroyer.
5. Su 22 armed with the electronic stealth mode by Talisman ADS equipment. I don't think 052D more stealthy than Su-22
@Deino : the range of approaching is 60-120km away from 052D that doesnt count the effectiveness of Talisman
Su-22M4 could launch the AS-17/AS-18 or KH-31P/Kh-59MK

 

[Brainsucker]

In details,
1. The attackers would come at your weakest point not the strongest. When you put all assets you have on the table to just make sure more chance of win for destroyer, you just stop to study the case attackers could penetrate your sphere of protection.
2. Tell me how military sat could help? The Su-22 also not come alone,
3. "to face 052D long range AAM" and "HQ-9 shot to medium range" ... just tell me about the range of detection, of interception ... to a supersonic fighter fly at altitude 500 meters above sea water level. That's what the Su-22 would do in real combat.
4. At least 12 AShM from multiple direction from 6 Su 22 launched at distance over 100km away from the destroyer.
5. Su 22 armed with the electronic stealth mode by Talisman ADS equipment. I don't think 052D more stealthy than Su-22
@Deino : the distance is 120km

Are you serious? What is the purpose of AWACS then? With Satellite, AWACS, and 052D own radar, they cover more space than your radar. They can even cover the low altitude area. They'll definitely detect your SU-22 first before you can even detect their assets.

And HHQ-9 can reach 200 km, not only below 100 km.

And an advanced Anti Air Warship like 052D is more capable to cover 360 degree area. They carry more AAM than the AShM that your 6 SU-22 can carry. They have 64 VLS tube! Just count how many missiles they're carrying? They even carry LACM. They can even target your SU-22 airbase from the sea.

Plus, 052D won't attack your country alone. China build more than one 052D. Sending 4 052D won't be hard for them in near future. Just imagine, 4 052D with 64 VLS each. It's at least 256 missiles, and can be more, if they put smaller missile and pack 4 missiles in 1 tube.

 

[BoQ77]

And HHQ-9 can reach 200 km, not only below 100 km.

At what altitude, do you know?
weather balloon at 27,000 meters above

not this

If you put more assets, AWACs, more destroyers. We could put "AWACS killer" "Radar killer" "Submarine" into the recipient

 

[Brainsucker]

At what altitude, do you know?
weather balloon at 27,000 meters above

not this

If you put more assets, AWACs, more destroyers. We could put "AWACS killer" "Radar killer" "Submarine" into the recipient

FD-2000 / HQ-9 SAM Characteristics

Operational Range (Aircraft Target) 7 - 125 km
Operational Altitude (Aircraft Target) 25 m - 27 km

Operational Range (Cruise Missile Target) 7 - 15 km
Operational Altitude (Cruise Missile Target) >25 m

Operational Range (Ballistic Missile Target) 7 - 25 km
Operational Altitude (Ballistic Missile Target) 2 - 15 km

Operational Range (Supersonic Missile Target) 7 - 50 km
Operational Altitude (Supersonic Missile Target) 1 - 18 km

CPMIEC HQ-9 / HHQ-9 / FD-2000 / FT-2000 Self Propelled AirDefence System

And they can carry more HHQ-9 compared to your 6 SU-22 can carry their AShM. So how can your SU-22 with old targeting system can pass the air cover of 052D?

 

[BoQ77]

This is HQ-9 Characteristic,
They can shoot an aircraft at 7 - 125 km range, and altitude from 25 m - 27 km.

FD-2000 / HQ-9 SAM Characteristics2
Operational Range (Aircraft Target) 7 - 125 km

Operational Altitude (Aircraft Target) 25 m - 27 km

Operational Range (Cruise Missile Target) 7 - 15 km

Operational Altitude (Cruise Missile Target) >25 m

Operational Range (Ballistic Missile Target) 7 - 25 km

Operational Altitude (Ballistic Missile Target) 2 - 15 km

Operational Range (Supersonic Missile Target) 7 - 50 km

Operational Altitude (Supersonic Missile Target) 1 - 18 km

CPMIEC HQ-9 / HHQ-9 / FD-2000 / FT-2000 Self Propelled AirDefence System

Make sure you understand those figures. Thanks for posting that, now we discuss about meaning of them.

You may confuse at 1st item, range 125km, altitude 25m - 27km, you think that HQ-9 could shoot at aircraft flying 125km away at 5km of altitude, but it's wrong.
It can't shoot even a helicopter at that distance. But 125km away air target at altitude 27km.
Did you see bomber fighter fly at that altitude ? No !!! That figure for marketing purpose.

See another item of cruise missiles ( not supersonic ), range down to 7-15km. Why?
You may think that it's smaller, but let's calculate a cruise missile in 7-15km look much bigger than an aircraft in 125km.
So there's another thing, ALTITUDE, cruise AShM always fly close to sea water level.

So as I said, what happen to range of detect and intercept if the aircraft approach at very low altitude ? 60-100km of range is reasonable.
====================
The attackers would approach at 500 meters above sea water level, to the distance 60-100km, climbing, launch the missiles and turn away, .. diving to 500 meters above sea water level and go home.
@gambit : will it work?