PLA's Type 052D destroyers can beat Vietnam's Su-22s: report

[Brainsucker]

Make sure you understand those figures. Thanks for posting that, now we discuss about meaning of them.

You may confuse at 1st item, range 125km, altitude 25m - 27km, you think that HQ-9 could shoot at aircraft flying 125km away at 5km of altitude, but it's wrong.
It can't shoot even a ai at that distance. But 125km away air target at altitude 27km.
Did you see bomber fighter fly at that altitude ? No !!! That figure for marketing purpose.

See another item of cruise missiles ( not supersonic ), range down to 7-15km. Why?
You may think that it's smaller, but let's calculate a cruise missile in 7-15km look much bigger than an aircraft in 125km.
So there's another thing, ALTITUDE, cruise AShM always fly close to sea water level.

So as I said, what happen to range of detect and intercept if the aircraft approach at very low altitude ? 60-100km of range is reasonable.

It's funny though that you want to compare 052D with SU-22 lol.

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Specifications for the
Sukhoi Su-17 / Su-20 / Su-22 (Fitter)
Ground Attack / Strike Fighter

Focus Model: Sukhoi Su-17M4 (Fitter-K)
Country of Origin: Soviet Union
Manufacturer: Sukhoi - Soviet Union / Russia
Initial Year of Service: 1970
Production Total: 2,867

Crew: 1

Length: 62.40 ft (19.02 m)
Width: 44.88 ft (13.68 m)
Height: 16.80 ft (5.12 m)
Weight (Empty): 26,808 lb (12,160 kg)
Weight (MTOW): 42,990 lb (19,500 kg)

Powerplant: 1 x Lyulka AL-21F-3 turbojet engine developing 24,802 lb of thrust.

Maximum Speed: 718 mph (1,155 kmh; 624 kts)
Maximum Range: 889 miles (1,430 km)
Service Ceiling: 49,869 ft (15,200 m; 9.4 miles)
Rate-of-Climb: 45,275 feet-per-minute (13,800 m/min)

Hardpoints: 12
Armament Suite:
STANDARD:
2 x 30mm Nudelman-Rikhter NR-30 cannons in leading edge wing roots.

OPTIONAL:
10 to 12 hardpoints for up to 9,000lbs of mixed ordnance including conventional drop bombs, napalm, drag chute bombs, runway-defeating bombs, TV/Laser-guided bombs, rocket pods, gun pods, air-to-surface missiles and air-to-air missiles.

What AShM that you're talking here?

 

[BoQ77]

 

[alimobin memon]

US diplomat once published a news that americans think 52D can detect and attack f35 easily... Su22 is nothing then

 

[BoQ77]

US diplomat once published a news that americans think 52D can detect and attack f35 easily... Su22 is nothing then

can detect or not, it's technical specs, not by diplomat mouthing.
Beside, How he did it, landed a German airplane in Red Square.
Impossible sometime possible

 

[Brainsucker]

View attachment 264183

Don't use wikipedia as your source!!!

Soviet/Russian Tactical Air - Surface Missiles

KH59 ME max range is 115 km. But even with that, there are many consideration that can affect the range of a missile. Plus KH-59ME is for Flanker Variant, not for SU-22. Or are you suggest that SU-17 / SU-22 is a flanker? or can you give me the proof that Su-22M3 can carry KH-59ME?

While KH-59 Ovod max range is 40 km. It's principle aircraft is SU-24. Or... do you mean it is SU-24 vs 052D? I thought it was SU-17 / SU-22. Say, Vietnam has SU-24?

The older KH-58 can reach 200 km. But it is an high altitude missile. You can't fire it from 500 m above the sea level.

Let say that you have KH-59 ovod on your obsolute SU-22. You have go at the range of 40 km to fire it. The problem is Earth is round. Even if your SU-22 can fire 052D from 40 km, but the question is, can your radar detect 052D from the position of 500 m above the sea level? Remember Vietnam doesn't has GPS, GLASNOSS or Beidu. They don't have satellite and no AWACS. Even if you have those support, SU-22 computer doesn't have the data link to get the benefit from your AWACS and Satellite. So basically, your pilots are at their own. They'll be massacred by 052D.

While at the same time, 052D get the benefit from the AWACS, military satellite and beidu. Their missile can be more accurate then yours. They can detect your fighters earlier and get the benefit from that.

So basically, you're dead.

 

[Brainsucker]

Am I right that you are Chinese?
Vietnam Su-22 is Su-22M4
Su-22 cruise at 500 meters but climbing at attack phase and retreat.

Vietnam has satellites, namely Vinasat-1, Vinasat-2
Su-22 has Su-30MK2 support behind with better radar

The Vinasat-1 and Vinasat-2 are commercial satellites. They are not military satellites. The purpose are different.
To be honest, I'm tired. I don't think that you're really-really know what you're talking about. I had even a suspicious that you're just a kid out there. So I decide to stop this nonsense here. You can say anything and I won't respond anymore.

Am I Chinese? I think I have told everyone here about who I am. I'm Indonesian, not a false flagger, so don't worry about it. But my ethnicity is Chinese / Han.

 

[Deino]

View attachment 264183

Again simply from Wiki ... show me one image of a Vietnamese Su-22M4 with a Kh-59ME ... show me any image !

 

[BoQ77]

Again simply from Wiki ... show me one image of a Vietnamese Su-22M4 with a Kh-59ME ... show me any image !

You can't find any photo, even of a Su-30MK2V with any important missile.
I must say VAF keeps that very secret. We have no way to prove that.
So you could say, Vietnam has no KH-59, no KH-31, no long-range AA.
They just use unguided bomb and rocket and canon.

Do you think Vietnam Su-22 with Talisman ADS has some effect, or not?
Means VAF still continue to upgrade Su-22 to have combat ready level against enemy with modern aircrafts, warships... another guess, Vietnam could put KH-35 ( domestic variant KCT-15) onto Su-22 as subsonic airborne AShM with range upto 130/260km.

 

[Deino]

Again Your black and white views only ! Only since I say Kh-59ME is simply not integrated to the Su-22 and there are no images available does not mean in return that they will only throw stones !

You really don't want to discuss ?? ... or You can't argue?

 

[BoQ77]

firstly it make sense to know the range type 052D could defend against attacks from aircrafts and cruise missiles effectively. But you guys dont do that so far.
Can you now?

to me the range just about 40-60km against low altitude aircraft.

If Talisman ADS has some effect on Type 052D like Russia did against Aegis ABD, Sukhoi 22 could come much closer.

 

[Deino]

Would You first answer our question instead of again leading this senseless discussion into yet another direction ?

 

[BoQ77]

Would You first answer our question instead of again leading this senseless discussion into yet another direction ?

what question?

 

[Deino]

Show us any proof of Your claim that the Su-22 can carry the Kh-59ME or tell us at least what ASM they could use ?

 

[kungfugymnast]

OHPs? Wrong war! There we NO Perry frigates hit during the Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991), codenamed Operation Desert Shield (2 August 1990 – 17 January 1991) for operations leading to the buildup of troops and defense of Saudi Arabia and Operation Desert Storm (17 January 1991 – 28 February 1991).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31)

Read up on the tanker war section of the Iraq-iran war (September 1980 to August 1988).
Iran–Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for that carrier story.... yeah, that's the right war but the wrong story, wrong missile and wrong explanation.

Silkworm (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Thunder and Lightning - The war with Iraq
(see about half way down the page)

There were no other assigned escorts but the frigates Jarret and Gloucester (no cruisers, no destroyers). The Silkworm is not a particularly sophisticated missile and poses a less challenging target compared to the newer generation Exocet. It does carry a larger warhead which gives potential to inflict more serious damage. Nevertheless, I very much doubt even a Silkworm (i.e. a single 300~500 kg time-delayed semi-armour-piercing high-explosive warhead) would have posed a very significant threat to the heavily armored WW2 battleship, which at that time packed no fewer than 4 Phalanx CIWS (which it did not need to engage)

As for damage from seamines, no frigates. A LHA and a CG were damaged

Gulf War 20th: The War at Sea | Defense Media Network



Thunder and Lightning - The war with Iraq

It's still the same gulf, same ships and same missiles anyways. It's not different war, continuation of Iraqis war.

Put aside the battleship near hit case, the US carrier almost hit by exocet was hottest topic at that time when the news was spreaded by US and British sailors. The Brits just can't stop bragging how good they were in shooting down the exocet when it got within visual range of less than 10 miles away while Americans began to panic. British often bragged they are smarter and better.

Before, many Chinese specialists are still considering that Vietnam Su-22 is threat to their fleet in South China Sea, including Type-052C ( another so called Aegis destroyer ), but with newer Type-052D ( a new so-called Aegis destroyer ), they feel optimistic to claim that Vietnam Su-22 is no longer threat to their fleet.

In summary, the article claim that Type-052D could deny the attacks of Su-22, I guess. Because to state that Type-052D could hunt Su-22 make no logic. So as their logic, just put few Type 052D destroyers somewhere in South China Sea, they could intercept the Su-22 engagement.

With that conclusion, they feel more comfortable with the thinking of only 36 Su-30MK2 of VAF ( not with 38x Su-22 anymore )

But it's not simple like that. VAF keep research and find out many suitable tactic and training their pilots for their Su-22 to approach enemy destroyers at low altitude, from multiple direction.
Arm with better equipments including: AShM , Anti-radar, Electronic stealth pod ...

Those moves were proven in real situation, confirmed by both sides ( buyer, seller ), with pictures, articles.

The effectiveness as refered by a Russian Su-24 to fly overhead a US Aegis Destroyer safely ( undetected ) in Black Sea, a much narrower sea in comparison to South China Sea.

Su-22 with variable sweep wings could help to short take off, stable flying at low altitude ( above sea level ) while heavy loaded, fly high speed at low and high altitude ( run after unloaded ammunition )

Basically, any aircraft that is upgraded to carry advanced long range anti~ship missile would pose serious threat to even latest aegis ship.

If an su22 could carry 4 such missiles and there are 6 attack aircrafts altogether launching 24x fire and forget advanced anti~ship missiles at 1 or 2 aegis destroyers, the destroyers are at great risk. The su22s would have to fly at high altitude in order to launch the missiles at maximum effective range and quickly turn around to get out of long range hq6 SAMs range.

It depends on the ships ability to shoot all the missiles and jam/spoof missiles without mistake. A ship is always a large target. In most situation, ships would rely on fighter support for protection engaging enemy aircrafts before they get within anti-ship missile range.

 

[Penguin]

It's still the same gulf, same ships and same missiles anyways. It's not different war, continuation of Iraqis war.

Perhaps in your mind it is.

Put aside the battleship near hit case, the US carrier almost hit by exocet was hottest topic at that time when the news was spreaded by US and British sailors. The Brits just can't stop bragging how good they were in shooting down the exocet when it got within visual range of less than 10 miles away while Americans began to panic. British often bragged they are smarter and better.

So, and which US carrier would this be? And when, where would this have taken place? There were four carrier battle groups operating in the Persian Gulf, together with the two additional battle groups in the Red Sea. None of these came under fire from Exocet (or Silkworm, for that matter).
US Navy in Desert Shield/Desert Storm

Here your Brit angle: it is the Gloucester i.e. BB Wisconsin story. The only difference between the US and the RN escort was that the Brits had more recent experience (Falklands), not that their Sea Dart was somehow superior to the SM1MR.
Missile vs. Missile – HMS Gloucester’s Finest Hour | Defence of the Realm