PLA's Type 052D destroyers can beat Vietnam's Su-22s: report

[gambit]

If a Type 052D was struck by Kh-58 onto its radar tower, what happen next? help me @gambit

The ship would be blind.

But it is easier to say than done. The line of sight (LOS) limitation is a two way street. If the attacking fighter flies too low for the ship's radar, then it is also flying too low to see the ship. Same for the missile.

Flying low is one thing. But flying low to attack an unseen target is another.

Attaching an unseen land target is difficult enough, but attacking an unseen moving target like a ship is much more difficult.

So it is not as simple as saying the VAF have been practicing low altitude flight for decades and expect people to be scared. Going after an unseen moving ship require a lot of intelligence about the ship, such as its last known heading and speed. Is there real time monitoring of that ship ? What is the frequency of the target update to the attacking jets, and by frequency, I do not mean radio frequency transmissions but how often is the jets informed ? What are the potential defenses ? Do the jets have enough fuel for the mission ? What are the options for the attack direction ?

Bottom line is: Do YOU know the training the VAF gone thru over this type of combat ?

 

[BoQ77]

The ship would be blind.

But it is easier to say than done. The line of sight (LOS) limitation is a two way street. If the attacking fighter flies too low for the ship's radar, then it is also flying too low to see the ship. Same for the missile.

Flying low is one thing. But flying low to attack an unseen target is another.

Attaching an unseen land target is difficult enough, but attacking an unseen moving target like a ship is much more difficult.

So it is not as simple as saying the VAF have been practicing low altitude flight for decades and expect people to be scared. Going after an unseen moving ship require a lot of intelligence about the ship, such as its last known heading and speed. Is there real time monitoring of that ship ? What is the frequency of the target update to the attacking jets, and by frequency, I do not mean radio frequency transmissions but how often is the jets informed ? What are the potential defenses ? Do the jets have enough fuel for the mission ? What are the options for the attack direction ?

Bottom line is: Do YOU know the training the VAF gone thru over this type of combat ?

I didn't scare other by talking about low flying skill. I just tell them there's always a way to defeat defensive layers.
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Dozens US Aegis destroyers out there for decades. If asking me whether Vietnam studied method to defend against US Navy or not, I will say "Yes, always" long time ago.
No matter how enemy strong, an independent country would find the their way to protect themselves.
So it's not any new thing to start finding a way to defend against an AA destroyer.
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Vietnam is going to buy AEW platform, such as C-295 AEW, they get delivery 3 of transport variant already

Your bottom line: I don't know exactly, if I know I never share it here. In the newspaper, Su-22 is for bombing the targets at sea.

 

[gambit]

I didn't scare other by talking about low flying skill. I just tell them there's always a way to defeat defensive layers.

There is always a way. But the problem is in the execution.

The main problem that I see with laymen talking about military issues is that they seems to believe that if there is a method, it is as simple as doing it. No thoughts are given as to the details and difficulties involved.

 

[GS Zhou]

If you want to dig more on this, refer what Vietnamese pilots training everyday "fly at sea level altitude" and launch attacks at distance 50-120km.

Hi boy, the modern war today is far more complicated than before. It is nowadays a "System vs. System" war, no longer a war as simple as "one piece of weapon vs. another piece of weapon".

If Vietnam wants to use SU22 to beat 052D, there are certain expensive steps for Vietnam to follow:

1. You need to know where the 052D is! That's actually a very very difficult job! The globe is not flat, it is a sphere! This means the ground-based radar is very much short eye-sighted for a water target. You may argue that Vietnam holds some islands on the South China sea, and the radar stations on these islands could extend the search distance of Vietnam. That's true at one side; but at another side, these radar stations are very vulnerable at war times; they are the easy targets for the China Air Force, or the 2nd Artillery.
2. Satellite is the best way to get the initial / rough location information of 052D. But does Vietnam has the satellite capability now? No. It needs time, and needs tons of investment. But even if you get it one day, a cruel fact to you is that China already owns strong anti-satellite capabilities. How could you guarantee the safety of your satellite in war times?
3. Even if you get the 052D location information via satellite, you need to make sure that you could be updated with the location information constantly, because the Chinese fleet is moving constantly! The best way for this job is to use AWACS system. Because the satellite could only stay above a specific area for a short period of time. But do you have AWACS system now? No. It needs time again, and also tons of investment. Even if you have it, AWACS system itself is very vulnerable. You need to make sure such a high-value asset would not be shot down by J10, J11, J15, J16, or J20. There must be a competition among the Chinese pilots for such a target!
4. Lets assume that your satellite is not shot down by China, your AWACS is also in a safe situation. Now you find that the Chinese fleet is in a good area for your Su22. So the Su22 takes off.
5. A precondition for SU22 taking off is that the airport hasn't been bombed by the Chinese bombers (H6K) or cruise missiles (DF10), or basaltic missiles (DF11/15/16/21) yet, you'd better prey for it.
6. Now you are lucky enough. The airport is fortunately not be bombed by China yet. So the S22 takes off, and your AWACS guides Su22 to get closer and closer to the Chinese fleet. But how could you make sure the safety of your Su22 on the air? The island construction work done by China means China could easily deploy fighters to the South China Sea to protect the Chinese fleet. And China very likely to send the aircraft carrier(s) to the South China Sea for a war against Vietnam. Your Su22, or any fighters accompany with Su22, how could they grantee the air superiority when facing with the Chinese fighters?

Clear? the fight Su22 vs. 052D is no longer a fight simply between the two pieces of equipment. It needs to involve the cooperation of a much broader set of defense systems of both countries: satellite, AWACS, fighters, ships, all kinds of missiles, bla bla. Your country today obviously lack of most of the capabilities that mentioned here. They are expensive! With lots of technology difficulties! Only a few countries could own all these: US, China and Russia. If I were you, I would prey for that a war between China and Vietnam would NEVER happen!

 

[BoQ77]

If everything works as you imagined China win.
Firstly, we aren't sure they work perfectly.
Secondly, Vietnam has more assets to put into the battle.
But we should limit the range of discussion.

the thread is about ballistic missile? GDP?
No.

 

[kungfugymnast]

You STILL do not know what you are talking about.

The AEGIS-type technology is not about the phased array technology but about the data processing and network integration with other platforms. The link that I provided for you is UNIVERSAL. Radar signals DO NOT curve over the horizon. If an aircraft is beyond the radar's LOS, no matter what technology it is, the radar will not see that aircraft.

This is not a high school sandbox, kid. There are adults here and some of us adults have actual military experience. I am a USAF veteran from two jets: F-111 and F-16. In my civilian life, I taught avionics and designed field radar tests of low flying unmanned platforms, aka 'drones'. Now you are telling me, and everyone else, that phase array signals are magical that bends with the curvature of the Earth. A-freaking-mazing.

Do you know that i went aboard 1 of your Nimitz class carrier and most of the crew there are for money and benefits rather than interest. Several of the sailors are philippinos migrated to America where some of them held officer positions or higher. Asked most of the pilots about military, they don't know much apart from what they do. Some cat officers and deck crew don't even know what aircrafts are on the carrier. You taught avionics but limited to your era pulse doppler while newer generation AESA was only available on newest ships at that time.

Earlier aegis focus on intercepting ballistic missiles but later aegis focus on intercepting advanced sea skimming anti-ship missiles. At times of worse case scenario, the arleigh burke is designed to have higher chance against low level high speed anti-ship missile. If this ship doesn't work that would end up being another hms arden, what makes you think your navy would rely much on this multi-role destroyers.

That's way they need another means of radar. Like Satellite, AWACS, or helicopter to see the area beyond the horizon. But don't worry, China has them all already.

Yes, china began to catch upbon technology but several existing ships needed refitment on avionics and weapons with modifications required.

 

[GS Zhou]

If everything works as you imagined China win.
Firstly, we aren't sure they work perfectly.
Secondly, Vietnam has more assets to put into the battle.

"Vietnam has more assets to put into the battle". Great! What are these invincible Vietnam asset? You want to do a defence asset competition with China? China's defence budget is almost equivalent to Vietnam's GDP!

What is worse to you is that China could make all types of advanced equipment on its own: fighters, submarines, ships, missiles, satellite! But Vietnam needs to rely on imports! This will make the gap even larger!

 

[BoQ77]

"Vietnam has more assets to put into the battle". Great! What are these invincible Vietnam asset? You want to do a defence asset competition with China? China's defence budget is almost equivalent to Vietnam's GDP!

What is worse to you is that China could make all types of advanced equipment on its own: fighters, submarines, ships, missiles, satellite! But Vietnam needs to rely on imports! This will make the gap even larger!

you are derailing the topic.
Our land based radar station could help to spot 052D at 400km away. Su30 could help to spot 052D too. It's the big and slow target.
We dont have but going to have AEW airplane soon.
We imported most of weapon but we have less enemy than China.
China defence budget spent most for feeding big quantity of personnel. Our troops dont get paid monthly salary

 

[GS Zhou]

you are derailing the topic

A "system vs. system" war is the reality of the 21st century. But I will not be surprised that you fear of the reality that you may never imagine before!

 

[kungfugymnast]

Sampson AESA

EL/M-2248 MF-STAR

===========================================
Aegis has very powerful radar which can detect even small RCS targets at huge ranges and with high rate of update, but as result it is very heavy and located low, reducing the detection range of skimmering missiles. Its illumination radars are also very powerful and long range (can fire at 240 km), but they can only address 3 targets simultaneously (to sides, front - only 1).

Sachsen class destroyer has much higher located multifunctional AESA radar (APAR). It can detect skimmering missiles at longer range than Aegis and engage much more targets simultaneously. But its much smaller and as result max range is limited to 150 km (for low RCS even lower). It has also SMART-L radar for long range detection, but this radar has low update rate and it cant illuminate targets and make terminal guidance. The update rate especially important vs ballistic missiles.

Conclusion: Aegis is much better vs. ballistic targets and long range high flying targets. Sachsen is much better vs. big number of low flying targets.


Source: The Great Asian Showdown: India’s Kolkata Class v/s China’s Type-52D Destroyer | Page 10

You're probably angry right now and so are the Chinese who posted here. Whoever came up with this article about su22 vs type052d probably 1 of the culprits trying to disrupt the china~vietnam attempt to rebuilt ties. Not just this article alone. In fact many other sensitive issues being brought up lately as if certain parties trying to keep Chinese and Vietnamese relation sour. Just treat this thread as knowledge brainstorm and drive to improve Vietnam economy so that Vietnam could buy more new advanced Russian weapons in future.

The kolkatta destroyer fitted with aesa radar on high mast is trying to substitute the use of having 4 separate large AESA on 4 corner edges of the ship. It is cheaper to have 1 for all directions than 4 facing separate directions to cover all angles. Having 4 advantage is better failsafe, if 1 failed or knocked out, the other 3 still working. Yes, you're correct on Sachsen on longer detection range against low level missiles which is why the newest type055 destroyer will come with mast mounted AESA and 4 standard AESA on 4 edges. The type052 has independent sensor type1150 ciws paired with FL3000 anti~missile defenses.

As for your question on what will happen if a destroyer is hit by 1x kh31 or kh59, expect casualties even if the ship could still operate but crippled.

 

[GS Zhou]

China defence budget spent most for feeding big quantity of personnel. Our troops dont get paid monthly salary

Let me repeat again: China's defence budget is equivalent to the GDP of Vietnam! How much could Vietnam spend on defence? 2%, or 3% of your GDP?
Open the google earth, and find the Jiangnan shipyard of china. You can find there are six to seven 052d destroyers be constructed simultaneously in just one shipyard! If China wants, we could have more 052D than the number of SU22 that you have!

Frankly, the best chance for your SU22 to beat China was to use it during the conflicts in 1980s. Our ships at that moment even didn't have sea to air missiles! But I couldn't understand why your country didn't use it? The saddest thing for your country is that: once you missed the chance, you missed it forever.

 

[Shotgunner51]

several existing ships needed refitment on avionics and weapons with modifications required

Yes bro, only the 052D-class is in mass production.
Currently three older DDG classes are already under refitting (modernization), they are 956, 051B, 02B, total 7 ships.
I suppose the other three classes, i.e. 052, 051C, 052C, total 10 ships, are to be refitted later.

Modernisation of Three Old DDG Classes: 956, 051B, 052B

 

[jhungary]

Do you know that i went aboard 1 of your Nimitz class carrier and most of the crew there are for money and benefits rather than interest. Several of the sailors are philippinos migrated to America where some of them held officer positions or higher. Asked most of the pilots about military, they don't know much apart from what they do. Some cat officers and deck crew don't even know what aircrafts are on the carrier. You taught avionics but limited to your era pulse doppler while newer generation AESA was only available on newest ships at that time.

Earlier aegis focus on intercepting ballistic missiles but later aegis focus on intercepting advanced sea skimming anti-ship missiles. At times of worse case scenario, the arleigh burke is designed to have higher chance against low level high speed anti-ship missile. If this ship doesn't work that would end up being another hms arden, what makes you think your navy would rely much on this multi-role destroyers.

Yes, china began to catch upbon technology but several existing ships needed refitment on avionics and weapons with modifications required.

To be fair, you did not disparager @gambit point other than claim you went on board US carrier and talking about how sailor on board that ship were in it for money rather than interest.

A point that dodgy at best as:

A.) We don't know you actually went aboard a US carrier you can claim whatever you say but at the end of the day, we can only take your word for it, which isn't really much.

B.) I had all access to US Navy asset and I personally know some O-5 or O-6 which command ships in the navy. And if you are a lifer, you need certain interest in the military hardware to be promoted to that point, I myself served 7 years in the Army. I knows the ins-outs of what I do and to be fair, the point "In it for money" is kinda invalid given the US Military pays less than Macdonald in the states (Or other commercial job). Do you even know how much I got pay and how much I can get if I did the same thing outside the US military circle? I got pay $6,500 a month (With benefit) as a Army O-3 and I can get a job twice to triple that outside...

 

[gambit]

You taught avionics but limited to your era pulse doppler while newer generation AESA was only available on newest ships at that time.

You STILL do not know what you are talking about.

Pulse doppler is a COMPONENT of the whole radar signal, therefore, pulse doppler processing or radar is a component of a greater system, which usually mean a multi-modes or multi-capabilities system. When the pulse doppler mode is selected, the system reconfigure itself to seek out differences among many many many pulse doppler signals and extract the one and/or the few that matches a threshold.

I bet you do not understand a word I said above.

Anyway...It means any radar system, from the classical concave dish to planar slotted array to individual active modules, can have the pulse doppler processing mode/capability. It also mean that the pulse doppler mode is OPTIONAL. Pulse doppler processing is primarily data processing, not hardware. If a radar system is designed to be pulse doppler alone, it mean the computer, not the antenna/array, is purposely designed to process those doppler differences.

You do not even know the basic components of a radar signal and here you are telling me that an AESA signal will follow the curvature of the Earth ?

Do you want to know what kind of radar signals that can do the curve ? How about the really low freqs whose physical wavelengths are literally hundreds of meters in length and whose output is powerful enough to literally cook you from in the inside out ?

So is that what you are saying for the Chinese ships with Chinese designed AESA systems ?

 

[BoQ77]

You're probably angry right now and so are the Chinese who posted here. Whoever came up with this article about su22 vs type052d probably 1 of the culprits trying to disrupt the china~vietnam attempt to rebuilt ties. Not just this article alone. In fact many other sensitive issues being brought up lately as if certain parties trying to keep Chinese and Vietnamese relation sour. Just treat this thread as knowledge brainstorm and drive to improve Vietnam economy so that Vietnam could buy more new advanced Russian weapons in future.

The kolkatta destroyer fitted with aesa radar on high mast is trying to substitute the use of having 4 separate large AESA on 4 corner edges of the ship. It is cheaper to have 1 for all directions than 4 facing separate directions to cover all angles. Having 4 advantage is better failsafe, if 1 failed or knocked out, the other 3 still working. Yes, you're correct on Sachsen on longer detection range against low level missiles which is why the newest type055 destroyer will come with mast mounted AESA and 4 standard AESA on 4 edges. The type052 has independent sensor type1150 ciws paired with FL3000 anti~missile defenses.

As for your question on what will happen if a destroyer is hit by 1x kh31 or kh59, expect casualties even if the ship could still operate but crippled.

No. Don't let emotion and need for win by any price in discussion overwhelmed our mind. that leads to derail topic and insult others.

Why 052D but not 052C can stop Su-22, could you define the logic in the article?