PEW research. Majority of population favours Sharia Law.

[Maula Jatt]

Hilarious...off course...This Shariya is a Muslim system...why others should follow it?...And if it to be forced..than where is democracy?....
Afghanistan is recent example....They now have Shariya but no democracy...self imposed leadership, no election...

are you high or something

who is forcing non Muslims to follow it?

 

[Adonis]

Shariah guarantees the rights of minorities more than any other religion.
Infact I do not see any difference in what Shariah says and what they have today.

Do you have a particular query to narrow down your argument?

How much you know about other religion? Nil....

When Muslim states can't protect their minorities without having a religious system like Shariya...imagine what will happen with a Mullah judge on the seat deciding on their fate...

You can't run a modern society with a medieval religious system.....it will choke the people's freedom......What about Women's rights? In radical Muslim societies, They are treated as instrument for producing babies and pleasure...what else?... look at Talibans, not a single women in their so called government....

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

If you can educate me on this particular topic. Why have the Bedouins been kept state less? This would mean they can’t purchase property, schools etc. and develop their small clans.

This type of pettiness and injustice exists across Asia. Don't know a lot about the situation but I think Kuwait considers them Iraqi. I recall they used to have an old wall and they consider people within the wall as real Kuwaitis. Bedoon consider themselves Kuwaiti too. I can't tell them apart. Iraq makes no claim on them. They were probably people who went back and forth between Southern Iraq and Kuwait as a traditional lifestyle. Met a Kuwaiti bedoon in the West who came as refugee. Human Rights Watch and other western press have reported on it.

Amp.dw.com 2019
The Bedoons: Kuwait's stateless minority

For more than 50 years, the Bedoons have been living in Kuwait without citizenship status. Now, it seems this problematic situation is finally being addressed. There may be light at the end of the tunnel.
"I have a dream: that my child and yours can live as equals, and that my child will not feel inferior to yours." This is the message that Alaa al-Saadoun recently shared on social media in the hopes that Kuwait will afford citizenship rights to the country's stateless Bedoon minority. Hundreds, possibly thousands, of Kuwaiti nationals also read her appeal on Twitter.

Alaa al-Saadoun is a Bedoon herself. The Arabic term roughly translates to "without nationality," and refers to a group of people who live in Kuwait, yet have neither that country's nor any other citizenship. They are a stateless people.

A 2018 report by the group Human Rights Watch says there are approximately 100,000 Bedoon people in Kuwait. A special Kuwaiti state department deals with regulatory issues and renews their security cards, yet these do not count as proper proof of identity.

 

[PakAlp]

When are you moving to Afghanistan, looks like you are fan of Sharia law. Don’t be hypocrite .

I am giving examples of the true Islamic Sharia law where women rights, animal rights and even plants right are fulfilled. You are giving example of uneducated Mullahs.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

I am giving examples of the true Islamic Sharia law where women rights, animal rights and even plants right are fulfilled. You are giving example of uneducated Mullahs.

Islamic Sharia is best implemented by Prophets of God. Today they are trying to follow a system or ideology. The focus for a just governance is the individual first. Injustice and unfairness to one is injustice to all. Governments today bulldoze individuals. They are not upholding human dignity and rights under God.

 

[Bouncer]

If "Majority of population favours Sharia Law" then by all means they should have it.

The majority also don't trust anyone to implement it effectively.

Also those 34% who think it needs to apply to non-Muslims need to be send to Chinese re-education centres.

Majority of Pakistanis want it but are not qualified to define what exactly does it entail. And the Ulema who know this stuff and are supposed to lead the awaam are too busy with other things like politics.

Just to give you an example; Ribaa is something all Muslims agree on. There is no difference of opinion on it. The great Dr Israr (late) once tried to unite all Pakistani ulema and launch a movement against Ribaa. It couldn't get off the ground because most major Ulema wanted this movement under their party's banner. At the end it was Dr Israar and some 300 of his followers who stood on constitution avenue with placards.

 

[Adonis]

are you high or something

who is forcing non Muslims to follow it?

So Shariya will be applicable only on Muslims...and not non-Muslims of a state?.....

Example - As part of Shariya in Afghanistan if any Mufti imparts fatwa on music, dance.....only Muslims will follow and Non-Muslims will be spared?

Ironically Zina (for homosexuality) is punishable by death...yet the biggest supporters of Shariya that is Maulvis of Afghanistan and Pakistan are often indulge in having such relationship with boys and go Scott free.....

My opinion is...this Shariya will also be exploited by the powerful as Islam has been..... Shariya will be imposed on common people and powerful and influenced one will get away from it....

 

[jamahir]

Lol. Bosnia in the survey but not India. Practising Muslims in Bosnia are very rare whereas in India there are so many that they regard themselves as Muslims first and then Indians.

@xeuss @jamahir @fitpOsitive

- PRTP GWD

1. First we have to understand what a "practising Muslim" is. A Tablighi Jamaati can pray 20 times a day because he or she thinks Islam is all about all-day prayer in manner of a Hindu Brahmin priest. But this TJ person will not have understood the philosophy of Islam and the evolutionary socio-economic and environmental ideas it brought. But the TJ person will not be respectful of these thoughtful aspects of Islam but will only be concerned with all-day prayer, dress code and grooming. Can the TJ person thus be called a "practising Muslim" ?

2. Islam, like Communism, is a pan-human transnational ideology and nation states are artificial entities anyway. Is there a natural boundary between USA and Canada and between China and Mongolia ? Whereas Hinduism for the last 3000 years of its existence in India sees India as its religio-nationalist container. All of Hinduism's current holy sites are located in modern India and this also is the reason for Hindutvadis to champion the idea of "Bharat Mata" and impose this idea on other communities. Still, don't you find practising Western Hindus giving more loyalty to the Hindus in India than to the Western lands they may have lived for two generations ? So you cannot fault Indian Muslims for finding brotherhood with Muslims elsewhere. But yes, progressive Muslims in India like me who are the ones who actually understand the philosophy of Islam and thus the real practising Muslims really want the real political and socio-economic problems in India to disappear and for India to become a harmonious country and this remaking of India the religio-nationalist Hindutvadis are not concerned about. They are just concerned about prayers, all-year chaotic festivals, hating Pakistan and oppressing various communities in the country. Show me one Hindutvadi leader who has proposed to eradicate the 3000-year-old extremely Capitalist socio-economic system in India because of which just between 1995 and 2015 more than 300,000 Indian farmers committed suicide.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

Brother IMO the difference between what normal banks call “interest” and what Islamic banks call “murabaha” is trivial, murabaha is just the same as the current banking system’s concept of interest but with extra steps.

The only legitimately Islamic thing about Islamic banks and finance is their prohibition of immodest industries, alcohol or tobacco, gambling etc. Even that isn’t unique to Islamic banks, plenty of secular organisations don’t lend to these businesses. Green and ESG finance often excludes these industries too.

But essentially, banks don’t lend for free. They don’t provide banking services for free. Some banks charge fees or commission, others charge interest, the difference is often trivial. If you are familiar with the concept of “time value of money”, it basically says that money isn’t free. Nobody lends for free (unless it’s charity or family support etc.), to rent money you have to pay a return. Put it this way... in a normal shop, you go in and look at products on the shelf, the price is quoted in cash. But you go into a bank and you want a stack of cash that is lying on a shelf (loan), the price is not quoted in cash, for convenience it’s quoted in interest.

So banks can lend you 100 dollars today, they can say the cash price is 5 dollars, the yearly fee is 5 dollars, the interest rate is 5 dollars, murabaha (Islamic banking) is 5 dollars. It’s all the same thing.

IMO Islamic prohibition of interest dates from a time when interest lending was a predatory practise by and large, used to fleece people, prey on the vulnerable. It used to be that a debt contract could land you in indebted servitude or slavery. Today you know what happens if you don’t pay a bank a loan? As long as no collateral was pledged and you are validly broke, you can simply say “I’ll default on the loan” and walk away.

And when it comes to monetary economics, all money that exists in this world, with the exception of things like cryptocurrency, is all issued by central banks. They quote the price of money as an “interest”, only for convenience. Central banks do NOT make any money, they don’t generate profits, they are civil servants. Fiat currency requires a system where money has a time value, you can quote that time value as interest, some weirdly complex version of murabaha, in cash price etc. It doesn’t matter, it has nothing to do with profit, exploitation or immorality, it just has to do with trying to set a value for cash across time.

Anyway, IMO if we want to do away with interest. First we must understand why and how, and what is this interest that we want to ban, or is something called interest that has nothing to do with the Islamic prohibition context, will naming it something else make it halal, or was it just trivial to begin with?

We must also understand the context of the global financial system. When Pakistani companies, government agencies, even the military, and banks, interact with the outside world, they use the international convention of quoting in interest. Nobody in this world exists in a bubble. Countries like Britain were one of the first to introduce modern finance into their economies, they made laws to protect both borrowers and investors, they established a central bank before most of the world did, they created the concept of the national debt, which was then used to fund their national objectives. It’s partially upon this system that they built their empire.

Anyway, I digress. There are some smart ways in which I believe one can change the system to either remove all mention of interest. Or more radical experiment ideas. However what we can’t do is somehow make a financial system that runs on kindness and not profit. Getting rid of interest for the most part would just be getting rid of what others call interest, and calling it something else. Please excuse the long post. Not a rant, just an interesting conversation.

Dear Brother:
You have made some excellent arguments regarding the issue, although I disagree with some. But before I divulge, based on what I know as a layman that Islamic Finance is a very vast and complicated field, especially in reconciling with certain global economical and financial issues of this age. It has a lot of gray areas as well, and I am definitely neither qualified in finance and economy in general let alone the niche of Islamic Finance.

About the interest now:

1) Yes interest is a reality that we all have to deal with one way or another, as the leaders and developers of intl finance and economy were not Muslims. Islam does prohibit it, but then understand that there is a difference in penalty for taking interest income (the worst) and giving interest (bad but not worse). And its prohibition is quite clear in Islam. Now in matters of faith we can take guidance from ulema of our area - so follow their guidance on the issue. I am not qualified so, I cant say this is haram or that is halal easily.

2) As I said interest as a reality is there and this was prophesied in a Hadith by the Prophet SAW, which is summarized as that before the end of time riba will be so common that no one will be able to escape or be safe from it, and even a truly believer will at least get effected by the dust of the riba - In my opinion we do seem to be in this time where even if we some how manage to not use mortgages, credit cards etc, our paychecks and economy is still affected by it no matter what we do.

3) Islamic finance as I said is a complex field and it has some solid foundations. I would not equate interest to profit so easily. Yes as an end user your cash flow may seem the same but the structure of the agreement still matters. The agreement structure does include the bank buying something and the selling back to you at a higher price for profit in installments. You can get more authentic details from proper scholars, but to my understanding these are pragmatic halal financial instruments. Now as I said even if you have the same cash flow happening, the agreement structure matters. Take the example of halal food - you could argue that a livestock slaughtered by a non muslim without taking Allahs name, biologicaly the meat is exactly the same as the one who read BismiLlah, but one is still halal and the other isn’t even though their physical properties might seem identical.

4) But in the end I do see some very serious efforts being made in shariah compliant financing and investments - so to say that we cannot follow shariah in this day and age is wrong. It is a challenge for Muslims of course and we are supposed to do the most sincere effort - and leave the rest on Allah.

 

[GHALIB]

Highlights from the research. Especially important is Pakistan.


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Chapter 1: Beliefs About Sharia

According to the survey findings, most Muslims believe sharia is the revealed word of God rather than a body of law developed by men based on the word of

www.pewforum.org

Majority Pakistanis want legislation to be influenced by Islam, survey reveals

78pc population “strictly supports” idea that teachings of Holy Quran should influence the country’s laws.

www.dawn.com

Chapter 1: Beliefs About Sharia

According to the survey findings, most Muslims believe sharia is the revealed word of God rather than a body of law developed by men based on the word of

www.pewforum.org

Although preferance for Sharia law existed for decades but normal people were never bothered by the current set of laws in Pakistan as their was harmony and tolerance in a society where moderate liberals, moderate religious people and devout religious segment in our society all go about their daily lives. Their religious values or their culture did not feel threatened. Condemnation of extremism/terrorism came from all segments of our society.

Now with the recent extreme push towards liberal extremism especially giving the very minute minority and their agendas more platform and voice especially in the grab of so called freedom of expression where as actively subduing/suffocating/denying the voice of majority by labelling anyone with even moderate religious views as backward, illiterate and extremist.
Actively mocking Islam teachings and its values.
Promoting indecency, infidelity, promiscuity, adultery, LGBT trends as fashion and anyone who who does not agree is called a mullah who is against right to work, right to education, freedom to choose who you marry as a tool to suppress criticism ( in fact Islam allows everything).

The Constitution of our society is not very far off from Afghanistan. Same as a limited kabul circle, the most vocal in Afghanistan mistaken for voice of majority turned out to be a negligible minority on ground. Don't fool this over representation of certain sponsored agendas and western ideologies and promote destabilisation and extremism in our society.

they deserve sharia law .

If "Majority of population favours Sharia Law" then by all means they should have it.

they should get it , they should not be deprived of it .

 

[Maula Jatt]

So Shariya will be applicable only on Muslims...and not non-Muslims of a state?.....

Example - As part of Shariya in Afghanistan if any Mufti imparts fatwa on music, dance.....only Muslims will follow and Non-Muslims will be spared?

Ironically Zina (for homosexuality) is punishable by death...yet the biggest supporters of Shariya that is Maulvis of Afghanistan and Pakistan are often indulge in having such relationship with boys and go Scott free.....

My opinion is...this Shariya will also be exploited by the powerful as Islam has been..... Shariya will be imposed on common people and powerful and influenced one will get away from it....

This is what they did in ottoman empire

 

[VCheng]

The only problem is the inbred authoritarian clerics who masquerade as pious folks using Shari'ah as a tool to oppress people... That is the risk all too often demonstrated especially in modern manifestation of Shari'ah.

The only issue I see with or without Sharia is their are no proper jurists well versed enough to implement it in Pakistan or else-where in the Islamic World.

The above comments are incompatible with the following statemnt made earlier:

Shari'ah if all compiled together is adjudication and precedent of over 4000 pages and volumes and volumes. It is rooted in Islamic Qur'anic law but has over one thousand four hundred years of interpretation from different ages .

How can a divinely ordained system be studied and interpreted for hundreds and hundreds of years, and yet we are left with no one to implement it properly, or clerics who use it to oppress people? Something is not right here.

Your questions again seems to imply that Quran and Shariah is faulty and cannot be followed, and hence if it truly was from God then it would be a lot easier and widely practiced as well - is this the right understanding I got from your posts?

Please see the above, and clearly note that I have not mentioned any issue with the Quran, and the only thing about Sharia is the observation that Muslims have clearly struggled with implementing it. Why that should be so despite all the time and effort spent in understanding it is the real question I pose. If we assume that sharia itself is perfect from its divine origins, surely it must mean that our implementation of it over hundreds and hundred of years is lacking. Is it because it is too difficult? No, because Allah has made religion easy for us. So what is left as an answer?

they should get it , they should not be deprived of it .

Yes, they clearly deserve to get what they want, if that is what they want.

 

[CatSultan]

This survey is rigged. If you pay close attention to nation's with higher numbers towards being religious, you'd also see in some key areas (important for any religious community today) include implementing it onto masses, adultery, etc. The ratios suddenly go off. To be fair, if a Survey was to be done about Judaism or Christianity, we might see similar context on some important things that matter to every religious family man.

I don't think any religion should implement it's use on population that doesn't believe in it. That's not just and right.

Shariah graunts minorities their own courts

 

[Clutch]

The above comments are incompatible with the following statemnt made earlier:

Shari'ah Law is one thing... But interpretation of it by ignorant people is another. Every Muslim loves Shari'ah as its derivatives from the Qur'an and teaches justice.

Think of it this way .. you may have a physics textbook that explains the physical sciences however if you have unscrupulous physicist that create a nuclear bomb and blow people up with that text books knowledge and laws... It isn't the text book or the laws of physics or nuclear fission at fault.... It's the fault of the corrupt physicist. I can still love physics and its laws.

yet we are left with no one to implement it properly, o

Who said nobody implements it properly.... Many many Muslim scholars do and Muslims to this day follow it. It's the uneducated clerics that misuse it. Unfortunately, the Western and other media like the Hindu extremist media that misrepresent reality of shari'ah.

 

[nang2]

Shari'ah Law is one thing... But interpretation of it by ignorant people is another. Every Muslim loves Shari'ah as its derivatives from the Qur'an and teaches justice.

Think of it this way .. you may have a physics textbook that explains the physical sciences however if you have unscrupulous physicist that create a nuclear bomb and blow people up with that text books knowledge and laws... It isn't the text book or the laws of physics or nuclear fission at fault.... It's the fault of the corrupt physicist. I can still love physics and its laws.

Then this Shari'ah law is not the law that can be used for enforcement. It can only used to explain things. Just like physics law. Do you see any government enforces physics law?