Pakistan's long-term national security: insurgencies and national identity.

[TheSolution]

It's a long read, but I think these are the core issues Pakistan needs to address urgently to properly strengthen it's foundation and get back on the right track. Some stuff is probably unrealistic/easier said than done.

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[epebble]

I would posit that the most urgent core issue is arithmetic. I am a believer in A rising tide lifts all boats. Unfortunately, the situation now is Falling tide is grounding all boats. Additionally, it is also exposing all those not wearing shorts.

 

[ThunderCat]

It's a long read, but I think these are the core issues Pakistan needs to address urgently to properly strengthen it's foundation and get back on the right track.

Some stuff is probably unrealistic/easier said than done.

Agreed with all except the last part. South Asian Muslim nationalism is different from secular Pakistani nationalism which puts Pakistan first & foremost.

Additionally, all migrants including Bangladeshis need to leave. Pakistan cannot afford to accommodate foreigners when it's own people are at disadvantage.

If Bangladesh is truly a "better country" to live in than Pakistan, there is no reason for at least two million unregistered Bangladeshis to be living in Pakistan.

Enough of this ummah nonsense. Pakistani nationalism needs to go back to it's secular roots.

 

[epebble]

at least two million unregistered Bangladeshis to be living in Pakistan.

How did this happen? Are they post 1971 illegal immigrants? Seems a large number for a country with no shared borders.

 

[TheSolution]

Agreed with all except the last part. South Asian Muslim nationalism is different from secular Pakistani nationalism which puts Pakistan first & foremost.

Additionally, all migrants including Bangladeshis need to leave. Pakistan cannot afford to accommodate foreigners when it's own people are at disadvantage.

If Bangladesh is truly a "better country" to live in than Pakistan, there is no reason for at least two million unregistered Bangladeshis to be living in Pakistan.

Enough of this ummah nonsense. Pakistani nationalism needs to go back to it's secular roots.

Which part specifically?

I am also a nationalist, strictly against ummah chummah, but also pro-Islamic-influenced Pakistan in a moderate fashion. I emphasised this in the national identity section above.

Pakistan cannot exist as a secular state as it is way too diverse, and there is no real reason to keep that diversity under a single state which will lead to mass instability and separatist insurgencies. (Also most people don't want a secular state, so that's not really democratic in itself)

Pakistan at it's foundation is the inheritor of South Asian Islamic history, civilisation and culture. A moderate Islamic country.

Also I agree with deporting refugees, no objection from me but the Bengalis don't pose an immediate security risk as of now as compared to the Afghans.

 

[KaiserX]

Which part specifically?

I am also a nationalist strictly against ummah chummah but also pro-Islamic influenced Pakistan in a moderate fashion. I emphasised this in the national identity section above.

Pakistan cannot exist as a secular state as it is way too diverse, and there is no real reason to keep that diversity under a single state, leading to instability and separatist insurgencies. (Also most people don't want a secular state, so that's not really democratic in itself)

Pakistan at it's foundation is the inheritor of South Asian Islamic history and culture. A moderate Islamic country.

Also I agree with deporting refugees, no objection from me but the Bengalis don't pose an immediate security risk as of now as compared to the Afghans.

I think we should subject Pakistan to single belief or idea. Why should we confine 220+ million different people, into singular terms? Secular, Conservative, Capitalistic, Socialistic etc... We should not contain ourselves to a single policy.

We should be none and all of the above. Let the government pursue policies that best support the people. In the end the closest we can Compare Pakistan to0 is honestly Israel, In that Pakistan is a Muslim Secular Country just as Israel is Jewish Secular Country.

I know a lot of people here disagree with me but even Pakistan today the majority of laws are british law with muslims allowed to go to shariah courts for certain issues, just like Israel where british laws are followed but jews can go to jewish courts for certain personal issues. In both countries as well the Army plays a prominent role with Most President being former Army Chiefs.

In both countries Secular, Conservative, Capitalistic, Socialistic, Nationalist leaning governments will come and go, but that is where the flexibility lays in dealing with so many different cultures, peoples, beliefs, religions, etc...

 

[TheSolution]

I think we should subject Pakistan to single belief or idea. Why should we confine 220+ million different people, into singular terms? Secular, Conservative, Capitalistic, Socialistic etc... We should not contain ourselves to a single policy.

We should be none and all of the above. Let the government pursue policies that best support the people. In the end the closest we can Compare Pakistan to0 is honestly Israel, In that Pakistan is a Muslim Secular Country just as Israel is Jewish Secular Country.

I know a lot of people here disagree with me but even Pakistan today the majority of laws are british law with muslims allowed to go to shariah courts for certain issues, just like Israel where british laws are followed but jews can go to jewish courts for certain personal issues. In both countries as well the Army plays a prominent role with Most President being former Army Chiefs.

In both countries Secular, Conservative, Capitalistic, Socialistic, Nationalist leaning governments will come and go, but that is where the flexibility lays in dealing with so many different cultures, peoples, beliefs, religions, etc...

That's sort of how I see it too, Pakistan is a semi-secular Muslim state and tbh I like that. This model doesn't cross any Islamic redlines through law and society is openly practising Muslim, but isn't too extreme like the Taliban next door. It leaves room for both nationalism but also practicing your religion.

Also it's good enough to have the narrative edge labelling Islamic terrorists as Khawarij.

 

[ThunderCat]

Which part specifically?

I am also a nationalist strictly against ummah chummah but also pro-Islamic influenced Pakistan in a moderate fashion. I emphasised this in the national identity section above.

Pakistan cannot exist as a secular state as it is way too diverse, and there is no real reason to keep that diversity under a single state, leading to instability and separatist insurgencies. (Also most people don't want a secular state, so that's not really democratic in itself)

Pakistan at it's foundation is the inheritor of South Asian Islamic history and culture. A moderate Islamic country.

Also I agree with deporting refugees, no objection from me but the Bengalis don't pose an immediate security risk as of now as compared to the Afghans.

Agreed. Most of the crime came from the Bangladeshis in the 90s, now not as much or at least much more hidden.

However Islam alone cannot unite us since many of us are non-Muslim and also divided into sects.

Our common Indo-Iranic heritage and pan-ethnicity can also unite us. There's an article titled "Ethnicity and provincialism in Pakistan" if you want me to link it. It was written in the 1970s and agrees with my argument.

 

[TheSolution]

Agreed. Most of the crime came from the Bangladeshis in the 90s, now not as much or at least much more hidden.

However Islam alone cannot unite us since many of us are non-Muslim and also divided into sects.

Our common Indo-Iranic heritage and pan-ethnicity can also unite us. There's an article titled "Ethnicity and provincialism in Pakistan" if you want me to link it. It was written in the 1970s and agrees with my argument.

Sure, I'd like to read the article.

I think the more things uniting the people, the better, if we can strengthen it with other links then it will make the foundation even stronger.

Mixed cities like Karachi and Islamabad also tend to do a good job I reckon as there's more likely to be cultural exchanges and interactions between diverse groups.

 

[ThunderCat]

How did this happen? Are they post 1971 illegal immigrants? Seems a large number for a country with no shared borders.

Indeed it is. But they are widespread an dunaccounted for. And yes they are post 1971 immigrants. Did you really think Bengalis never came to Pakistan after 1971? They came in enormous hordes.

Benazir even had to crack down at them because of all the drug and other crimes in karachi. We also had a break in at our house in Karachi in 2005.

Send them back. Why are they in Pakistan? Many work illegally as housemaids and streets vendors. I've seen them myself.

 

[epebble]

Agreed. Most of the crime came from the Bangladeshis in the 90s, now not as much or at least much more hidden.

However Islam alone cannot unite us since many of us are non-Muslim and also divided into sects.

Our common Indo-Iranic heritage and pan-ethnicity can also unite us. There's an article titled "Ethnicity and provincialism in Pakistan" if you want me to link it. It was written in the 1970s and agrees with my argument.

Why does anyone need to 'unite' anybody? Why can't people live freely in a free society minding their business? Have you thought about the option of the State or anyone not bothering the people when it is not needed?

 

[TheSolution]

Why does anyone need to 'unite' anybody? Why can't people live freely in a free society minding their business? Have you thought about the option of the State or anyone not bothering the people when it is not needed?

Unite just means reducing tension between diverse populations as to not cause internal conflict in the form of things like TTP, BLA, etc.

It has nothing to do with trying to control anyone's life or taking away a 'free' society, on the contrary it creates a stable society where people can be more safe and 'free'

 

[epebble]

They came in enormous hordes.

Since there is no land border, they came by plane or ship. Why were they admitted without a visa?

 

[ThunderCat]

Since there is no land border, they came by plane or ship. Why were they admitted without a visa?

Forged documents and other types of smuggling. Some came as "visitors" but never left.

 

[KaiserX]

Indeed it is. But they are widespread an unaccounted for. And yes they are post 1971 immigrants. Did you really think Bengalis never came to Pakistan after 1971? They came in enormous hordes.

Benazir even had to crack down at them because of all the drug s and other crimes in karachi. We also had a break in at our house in Karachi in 2005.

Send them back. Why are they in Pakistan? Many work illegally as housemaids and streets vendors. I've seen them myself.

Bengalis are a lot more integrated today and much of the crime can be attributed to afghan refugees who refuse to integrate.

Paks immigration policy is crap. Immigration is a source of strengh in the west and Israel. We have never been able to leverage our place as a “muslim homeland” infact pak has never had political scientist to the level of russia/israel that helped define its national narrative and in turn its immigration policy.

Mujahirs in the 50s, bengalis in the 80/90s have been far better at integrating into society. Why have pashtuns/afghans not been able to assimilate as easily? It could be due to pashtun nationali which is a cancer to our society. A state that is just meant to be a thorn on our side.

Likewise a iranic identity is also not strong enough. Only 25% of our population is iranic and they to have never thought themselves as iranic first or iranic/islamic… that mantle is with Iran.

In the end the best identity for us is a Muslim
Homeland with secular govt/laws with some islamic limbo. You will always have people who are more nationalistic, left leaning, secular, right wing, islamist etc… trends and moods will always change. Even when it comes to individual parties many right leaning parties have implemented left wing policies and vise versa.

When it comes to history pak must emphasise a national/ethnic identity. Sindhis/baloch/punjabis/kashmiris etc are not much diff. They lived, intermarried, and interacted with one another for thousands of years to the point its hard to differentiate in many regions and families. Go to any major city in pak and you will see all ethnicities. I would go as far as to way why not make our past as indus valley and vedic culture our strengh? Take for example greece which is proudly christian yet proud of its ancient hellenic culture or egypt which is proudly muslim yet also aware of its pharoic past? It would require introspection and education of vedic/hindu roots but somewhere we can even work with india on.

When it comes to immigration we should deport afghans and instead focus on immigrants from bangladesh, india, iraq, kurdistan, syria, lebanon. There is well know. Iraqi/kurdish/levant populace in lahore/karachi/islamabad that has been very successful even with its small population. Whats stopping us from implementing that at a larger scale?