Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214

[Contrarian]

Rupee News. Dont bet on reliability.

 

[Skywalker]

Rupee News. Dont bet on reliability.

I know an Indian cant swallow that, so what is unrelaible the purchase of the subs or local manufacturing with complete ToT.

 

[Hyde]

i don't trust Rupeenews either

I am a Pakistani - Alhamdullilah

lets wait for some better reliable source

 

[Myth_buster_1]

rupee news military news are not credible at all but some non military related stuff are okay.

 

[sergente rehan]

Glad to see that Pakistan Navy is acquiring these advance subs! ,
we really need this new stuff....althoug i wonder if PN is planing to built or acquire any Nuclear sub? i know it's realy expansive and not so easy but in the future i think we must be capable to build nuclear subs

 

[fighting sparrow]

Fellows,
Please, tell me, are we buying U214 Only,
or
with transfer of technology too ?

waiting.

I dont think so
1.the german parliament has recently discussed whether pakistan get u214 cause pakistan has the barbur and nuclear weapons but it was only a show for the pacifists, pakistan get the u214
2. germans and tech tranfer?? perhaps in the design and construction but not the AIP

 

[Patriot]

I dont think so
1.the german parliament has recently discussed whether pakistan get u214 cause pakistan has the barbur and nuclear weapons but it was only a show for the pacifists, pakistan get the u214
2. germans and tech tranfer?? perhaps in the design and construction but not the AIP

Parliament has approved the sale and i am not quite sure about TOT.

 

[fighting sparrow]

Parliament has approved the sale and i am not quite sure about TOT.

dont worry , the germans discusses every time before the sale weapons and at the end they sale it ...only a show you know

but tech transfer is difficult

 

[PAFAce]

Glad to see that Pakistan Navy is acquiring these advance subs!
we really need this new stuff....althoug i wonder if PN is planing to built or acquire any Nuclear sub? i know it's realy expansive and not so easy but in the future i think we must be capable to build nuclear subs

Fuel Cell propulsion is more modern than Nuclear Propulsion. It is also much safer and cleaner. However, the biggest reason of all is that Nuclear Propulsion is expensive and brings with it unwanted attention. Anytime the word "nuclear" is mentioned, idiots who don't know the true potential of nuclear technology get their panties all in a bunch. Therefore, anti-Pakistan propagandists, in particular the Indian media, will have a field day with "Pakistan is acquiring/building a nuclear submarine". It will only serve as a negative for international relations.

However, despite its drawbacks, I am not entirely against the idea of a Pakistani nuclear submarine. We are a country that can build nuclear weapons but not nuclear power plants. This is very sad, because we have only managed to harness nuclear potential as a weapon and not as a source of energy and development. Don't expect much in the form of indigenous nuclear technology, or any kind of thrust in the nuclear industry, if things remain the way they are. Therefore, I think a nuclear submarine program started by the Pakistan Navy will be one way to open the avenue towards indigenous nuclear power generation in Pakistan. If this does happen, it will be just one of many ways in which Pakistani innovation is spearheaded not by the politicians, but by the military.

 

[niaz]

Fuel Cell propulsion is more modern than Nuclear Propulsion. It is also much safer and cleaner. However, the biggest reason of all is that Nuclear Propulsion is expensive and brings with it unwanted attention. Anytime the word "nuclear" is mentioned, idiots who don't know the true potential of nuclear technology get their panties all in a bunch. Therefore, anti-Pakistan propagandists, in particular the Indian media, will have a field day with "Pakistan is acquiring/building a nuclear submarine". It will only serve as a negative for international relations.

However, despite its drawbacks, I am not entirely against the idea of a Pakistani nuclear submarine. We are a country that can build nuclear weapons but not nuclear power plants. This is very sad, because we have only managed to harness nuclear potential as a weapon and not as a source of energy and development. Don't expect much in the form of indigenous nuclear technology, or any kind of thrust in the nuclear industry, if things remain the way they are. Therefore, I think a nuclear submarine program started by the Pakistan Navy will be one way to open the avenue towards indigenous nuclear power generation in Pakistan. If this does happen, it will be just one of many ways in which Pakistani innovation is spearheaded not by the politicians, but by the military.

Having worked for one year at the Scottish Research Center at the NRL in East Kilbride and with one year at the Institute of Nuclear Technology at the Imperial college, albeit a very long time ago, I would like to explain why Pakistan; despite being able to explode an atomic bomb is currently not in position to build nuclear submarine.

Basic ingredients for producing an atomic bomb are the fissile materials i.e. Either Plutonium or Uranium 235. Once you have sufficient quantity of these metals, you can either use the same to build a reactor to produce power or to make a nuclear weapon. Pakistan adopted both the routes. Spent fuel processing to produce Plutonium and centrifuge method to improve concentration of U-235 for 0.7% to 35% required for weapon grade Uranium. Dr AQ Khan was responsible for the later. After we had sufficient weapon grade Uranium, designing of an implosion mechanism to trigger nuclear explosion was relatively simple. Thus Pakistan has nuclear weapons.

Designing a Nuclear Power Plant is a far more arduous task. It involves very high level of metallurgical skills and ability to produce devices from a lot of different alloys. For example we need ability to produce Magnox fuel rods, Cadmium/Boron -10 control rods, very high tensile strength steel for heat exchangers and a lot of Lead for radiation shields. Regret to say that Pakistan doesn’t have the capacity or the know how to design and build nuclear reactors. That is why we are buying these from China.

Nuclear submarines also employ PWR (Pressurized Water Reactors) similar to the power plants, only in a miniaturized form. Until such time we design and build indigenous nuclear power plants, we wont be able to miniaturize the same for naval propulsion. You don’t go to designing nuclear power plants from nuclear subs, it is the other way round.

Even India with a lot more metallurgical expertise is not able to produce nuclear subs on their own; that is why they are buying these from Russia.

 

[fighting sparrow]

Ok , so,
not TOT, only buying.
Now tell me one thing, we are expert in French, AUGUSTA, now why we dealing this ?
and
if we can make augusta, then why not "u214" I mean Hull etc,

maybe i dont know but it seems so...

all u214 will construct in pakistan ,wich means the germans show pakistan the "method of construction" (hull)

direct competition of the u214 class is france new export u boot(scorpène class )the basic version has the obsolete diesel elecktric propulsion and india orders six of them...but they will modified in a AIP (MESMA)
however the u214 has more customers than the scorpène class
and this shows the u214 is better

 

[araz]

Having worked for one year at the Scottish Research Center at the NRL in East Kilbride and with one year at the Institute of Nuclear Technology at the Imperial college, albeit a very long time ago, I would like to explain why Pakistan; despite being able to explode an atomic bomb is currently not in position to build nuclear submarine.

Basic ingredients for producing an atomic bomb are the fissile materials i.e. Either Plutonium or Uranium 235. Once you have sufficient quantity of these metals, you can either use the same to build a reactor to produce power or to make a nuclear weapon. Pakistan adopted both the routes. Spent fuel processing to produce Plutonium and centrifuge method to improve concentration of U-235 for 0.7% to 35% required for weapon grade Uranium. Dr AQ Khan was responsible for the later. After we had sufficient weapon grade Uranium, designing of an implosion mechanism to create nuclear explosion was relatively simple. Thus Pakistan has nuclear weapons.

Designing a Nuclear Power Plant is a far more arduous task. It involves very high level of metallurgical skills and ability to produce devices from a lot of different alloys. For example we need ability to produce Magnox fuel rods, Cadmium/Boron -10 control rods, very high tensile strength steel for heat exchangers and a lot of Lead for radiation shields. Regret to say that Pakistan doesn’t have the capacity or the know how to design and build nuclear reactors. That is why we are buying these from China.

Nuclear submarines also employ PWR (Pressurized Water Reactors) similar to the power plants, only in a miniaturized form. Until such time we design and build indigenous nuclear power plants, we wont be able to miniaturize the same for naval propulsion. You don’t go to designing nuclear power plants from nuclear subs, it is the other way round.

Even India with a lot more metallurgical expertise is not able to produce nuclear subs on their own; that is why they are buying these from Russia.

Niaz Saheb.
thank you for a very informative post. While a novice in this field, all that i have to add is that a respected poster on our sister forum had posted that work is on going in this field and there is a lot of excitement and expectations of some good news in the near future. Having said that with the financial melt down, inept and corrupt governance, I can only hope that things are progressing in the right direction. However, like you i questioned the poster on the actiual need for a Nuke sub for a defensive Navy, and did not get a satisfactory answer.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[PAFAce]

Until such time we design and build indigenous nuclear power plants, we wont be able to miniaturize the same for naval propulsion. You don’t go to designing nuclear power plants from nuclear subs, it is the other way round.

Even India with a lot more metallurgical expertise is not able to produce nuclear subs on their own; that is why they are buying these from Russia.

Thank you Niaz for the information. I think you may have miunderstood my post, but you have proven what I wanted to say nonetheless. My point was not that we should build nuclear subs before a power plant, but rather that if Pakistan was interested in building or operating a nuclear submarine, we must first become able to harness nuclear energy for electricity. For this, the government will need a push, which will have to come from the Pakistan Navy.

 

[sergente rehan]

Yeah we can use Nuclear energy to fulfill our electricity need....if i'm not wrong currently we had a couple of nuclear plants Chashma and another.
PN must start a nuclear sub project too because it's one of the most fearsome weapon! and if we have to target an enemy like Israel a Nuclear sub will do a great job...may be i'm wrong, i'm just a noob in this subjet!!

 

[PAFAce]

Yeah we can use Nuclear energy to fulfill our electricity need....if i'm not wrong currently we had a couple of nuclear plants Chashma and another.
PN must start a nuclear sub project too because it's one of the most fearsome weapon! and if we have to target an enemy like Israel a Nuclear sub will do a great job...may be i'm wrong, i'm just a noob in this subjet!!

Nuclear Submarine is a term usually used for submarines that use nuclear fission for propulsion, instead of gas or fuel cell technology. It does not generally mean a submarine capable of carrying nuclear warheads (though this is a common error).

If Pakistan were to try to acquire a nuclear-weapon-capable submarine, our neighbours would go crazy with propaganda. At this time, we do not need more enemies in the international community, so we should stick with our current plans. In the future, once we've managed to master nuclear energy, we can purchase/co-produce a nuclear propulsion submarine. Also, for threats like India and Israel, we don't really need nuclear-weapon-capable submarines. Our missile program is more than enough for that. Also, if you are looking at threats farther away (Europe or Americas), then an ICBM program will be more within our reach than a nuclear-capable submarine.

There are two operational nuclear power plants in Pakistan, Chashma Nuclear Power Plant (CHASNUPP-1) in Mianwali, Punjab and Karachi Nuclear Power Plant (KANUPP) in Karachi, Sindh. KANUPP is a CANDU reactor (Canadian Deuterium), a Canadian design, and became oprational in 1972, whereas CHASNUPP-1 was built with the help of China and became operational in 2000. We are also currently building CHASNUPP-2 with the help of the Chinese. I have worked for the company that designed KANUPP (Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd.) and I strongly believe that nuclear power is a technology we should invest in, along with hydro. I realise that it is difficult to build nuclear power plants, but we have experience working on nuclear projects, large-scale mettallurgy (ex. submarines), power generation systems (ex. hydro plants) etc. Therefore, it is the right time to begin indigenous projects and to stop using international designs.

Lastly, since China is our ally, we can establish an energy sharing system, much like the US and Canada, where both countries work together to satisfy each other's energy requirements, building a huge network and solidifying ties in the process.