Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214

[Neo]

No I meant didn't IMF put conditions on Defense expenses for loan?

No pressure to reduce defence budget, says Mukhtar​

KARACHI, Nov 26: Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar said on Wednesday that IMF had not exerted any pressure on Pakistan to reduce its defence budget nor was it a condition for its loan.

He was talking to reporters after witnessing a demonstration of tanks and other Pakistan-made weapons systems during a visit to Ideas 2008.

He said he expected defence-related exports to grow considerably in the coming years.

Mr Mukhtar told a questioner that visiting delegations had liked Pakistan-made tanks and aircraft and Pakistan would soon join the ranks of countries exporting battlefield tanks. He said that progressive manufacturing of defence equipment was aimed at ensuring credible defence capability.

He said the defence forces of Pakistan were capable of defending the country because they excelled in their capability despite financial and other constraints.

He said that negotiations with many potential buyers were under way for exporting top of the series weapons, adding that many countries had evinced keen interest in the JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft jointly developed by Pakistan and China.

Reiterating Pakistan’s commitment to regional and global peace, he claimed that Ideas 2008 had provided a platform to project the dangers of conflict and the need for peace through negotiations.

 

[Nutuk]

Something what most people disregard is the tactical advantage to have similar weaponry with allied countries. This tactical advantage goes to both Turkey and Pakistan.
Suppose having the same type of ships, same type of submarines with similar layout than it would take only to paint your countries flag on those boats in times of war.

I personally advocate that Pakistan and Turkey should do much much more to make their respective armies compatible.

 

[IceCold]

Something what most people disregard is the tactical advantage to have similar weaponry with allied countries. This tactical advantage goes to both Turkey and Pakistan.
Suppose having the same type of ships, same type of submarines with similar layout than it would take only to paint your countries flag on those boats in times of war.

I personally advocate that Pakistan and Turkey should do much much more to make their respective armies compatible.

Very well versed. Indeed this should be a priority for both countries as you may never know when the need arises. Pakistan and China have many similar platforms.

On a side note, are Turkish F-16s too under strict US monitoring policy as Pakistani ones are?

 

[Nutuk]

Very well versed. Indeed this should be a priority for both countries as you may never know when the need arises. Pakistan and China have many similar platforms.

On a side note, are Turkish F-16s too under strict US monitoring policy as Pakistani ones are?

Unfortunately yes, in aircrafts we will stay dependent since we have no technological alternative to build our own but on all other fronts Turkey is working hard to reduce dependency as much as possible. Especially the navy and landforces are key priority areas.

 

[metalfalcon]

Something what most people disregard is the tactical advantage to have similar weaponry with allied countries. This tactical advantage goes to both Turkey and Pakistan.
Suppose having the same type of ships, same type of submarines with similar layout than it would take only to paint your countries flag on those boats in times of war.

I personally advocate that Pakistan and Turkey should do much much more to make their respective armies compatible.

I said in my Previous post that another benefit of selecting U 214 is that Turkey is also interested in this project and Turkey plans to upgrade the current configuration of U 214 and make it even more technologically advanced and Pakistan for sure can benefit from this Turkish effort as Pakistani Turkish ties are very Strong and Friendly.

Long live Pakistani Turkish Friendship.

 

[Super Falcon]

hoooooooooooooooooooooo

Scorpene is no match to U214 or even any russian subs which india operates even Akula is nothing infront of state of the art U214.

 

[araz]

hoooooooooooooooooooooo

Scorpene is no match to U214 or even any russian subs which india operates even Akula is nothing infront of state of the art U214.

Asad and Super Falcon
Brothers I love you for your valour and the pridein your country, but a couple of things to note. If IN surface platforms are not that good, neither are PNs. Type 21s have had their share of headachesand virtually are on the verge of retirement. We have 3 decent subs and 2 so so. Love for PN aside Idont see us in any better condition.
As to U214vs Scorpene debate, read some of Jliu's posts on the matter. He knows his stuff.
i think it is a serious mistake to underestimate the enemy and this baulshy behaviour has gotten us a drubbing so many times that I cant tell you. Pragmatism demands that we understasnd that our policy is one of deterrance and not a match for equality/quantity. We will always loose out in a conventional war beause we do not have enough resources and on top of that you need to understand the dynamics of world politics vis a cvis India Pakistan.
All that we can say is that once all our plans materialize we will make life very difficult for the Indians but that would be about it.
WaSalam

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

nope, in previous arguments, I've wasted my time providing sources and proof to back my statements, you didn't. This time, it's your duty to back yourself up.

I once had the honour(?????????!!!!!) of debating with you. Only to find out that I had wasted time in providing detailed links to Indian Super computing programmes (thinking you were a professional)only to find that you were someone full of empty rhetoric , hot air from you.The only source you gave about Pakistani Super computing programme was a pathetic online tech magazine with a vauge article... To sum it up you are not one worth providing source.

If you want proof, you can find a lot in this forum itself.

my proposal still stands, start a thread and explain in full detail how your navy can dominate right now or in the future, whichever you choose. enlighten us on what ships the indian navy operates, and what weapon systems are utilized on those ships.

a. For starters check the systems, subsystems, vendor who hawks them, the very systems that will be arming the so called "numerically only" superior Indian Navy.
b. Read the future procrurement plan of IN
c. Before doing that read the current inventory and procurement ..
Huge and bulky those destroyers may be but its the subsystems that make thw qualitative difference. Anyone who is well versed in Naval matters will know and agree to what I say.

Also, please do not confuse the audience by switching timelines for both navies, like most indians do on these defense forums. for example, a typical indian will start blabbering about Scorpenes when comparing Agostas, although Scorpenes will be inducted not too long before we get our U-214's.

a. You don't have iota of knowledge(first hand) regarding both the platform, so quit talknig like you have worked with the sub.
b. Does induction date even matter, what difference will 3 U 214 make. At best it will make IN's life little difficult. Even this is nullified with investment in ASW assets by IN.
c. If IN thought U 214 was the best out there after taking a look at it, it would have got them, period. Unlike you I don' see factors like embargo, spares etc being a deciding factor. So If IN rejected it there must be a sure damming reason..
d. Even if there is a qualitative difference between Scorpene and U 214(which s at best minimal), did it even occur to that the chances of both engaging each other will be minimal .
e. Do you have plans to counter IN's procurement plans for second line of subs.

IPF

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

@ our thick head indopakfriend.

.

Did I even talk to you...

no matter how much you try the fact still remains that german U-214 is way advanced then your u-209, akula class and Scorpene subs.

I did not know that you were with your Naval chief when HDW briefed you Navy...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

a. You don't have iota of knowledge(first hand) regarding both the platform, so quit talknig like you have worked with the sub.
b. Does induction date even matter, what difference will 3 U 214 make. At best it will make IN's life little difficult. Even this is nullified with investment in ASW assets by IN.
c. If IN thought U 214 was the best out there after taking a look at it, it would have got them, period. Unlike you I don' see factors like embargo, spares etc being a deciding factor. So If IN rejected it there must be a sure damming reason..
d. Even if there is a qualitative difference between Scorpene and U 214(which s at best minimal), did it even occur to that the chances of both engaging each other will be minimal .
e. Do you have plans to counter IN's procurement plans for second line of subs.
IPF

a. lol thats coming from a bha-***-chakafanboy.
b. you are really delusional with your fishing boat hunter navy. IN 6 scorpene will enter service in 2012-2017 period if every thing goes to plan. by the time we get 3 U-boats in 2015-16 PN will have a better none-nuclear sub fleet along with 3+1 Agosta-90B AIP which probably might have gone through MLU. even with the induction of first IN project76 batch PN technically will have a upper hand and second u-214 batch will be ordered around that time frame. and mind you we are talking about sub fleet so no need to bring none sub ASW support here.
c. oh really is that your assessment of why IN rejected U-214? so "if" one day IAF chose Fa-18 will that mean they have technically chosen a better platform over Rafael, EF-2000 and Gripen NG? lol.
d. why? is IN not planning to use Scorpene in war time because PN will defiantly will be putting them in action.
e. second line subs? lol. say that to a german, italian, greek, korean, turk and you will get a real good smack at your face. lol.


hope you dont come up with something really dumb as yourself.

regards.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

a. lol thats coming from a bha-***-chakafanboy.

Whatever...

b. you are really delusional with your fishing boat hunter navy. IN 6 scorpene will enter service in 2012-2017 period if every thing goes to plan. by the time we get 3 U-boats in 2015-16 PN will have a better none-nuclear sub fleet along with 3+1 Agosta-90B AIP which probably might have gone through MLU. even with the induction of first IN project76 batch PN technically will have a upper hand and second u-214 batch will be ordered around that time frame. and mind you we are talking about sub fleet so no need to bring none sub ASW support here.

Guess what ... you are way off the mark. The contract has not been completely done yet. Add to that retooling your docks etc .. You are on a tangent on your timelines.

Any ways like I said It will at best make life little difficult. I don't see any earth shattering changes in balance of power. Anyways PN has been a Sub focussed navy.

ASW is the most important part of discussion. I have included it as Mr Assad had talked about IN as a whole.. ASW is the most predominant way to engage sub. Period. Learn and then post.

c. oh really is that your assessment of why IN rejected U-214? so "if" one day IAF chose Fa-18 will that mean they have technically chosen a better platform over Rafael, EF-2000 and Gripen NG? lol.

Yup if IAF chooses F18 then they have a better platform over the said competitors. F 18's sensor suites outclasses the rest any given Sunday.

d. why? is IN not planning to use Scorpene in war time because PN will defiantly will be putting them in action.

Ok quit posting to me if you don't know what you are talking about except mongering pathetic oneliners..... IN surface and maritime reconissance wing will be primarily engaging PNsubs...

e. second line subs? lol. say that to a german, italian, greek, korean, turk and you will get a real good smack at your face. lol.

Whatever... I guess your education does that to you..

hope you dont come up with something really dumb as yourself.

Yeah yeah... for someone who envisions naval warfare as cowboy country shootout.. I appriciate your suggestion.. Good work mate...

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

I once had the honour(?????????!!!!!) of debating with you. Only to find out that I had wasted time in providing detailed links to Indian Super computing programmes (thinking you were a professional)only to find that you were someone full of empty rhetoric , hot air from you.The only source you gave about Pakistani Super computing programme was a pathetic online tech magazine with a vauge article... To sum it up you are not one worth providing source.

lol... you still failed to prove your claim on india's so-called hydrogen "big" bomb. the only source you could find is a naval officer with no experience with the nuclear field, struggling in an uphill battle to prove that india detonated a hydrogen bomb.

a. For starters check the systems, subsystems, vendor who hawks them, the very systems that will be arming the so called "numerically only" superior Indian Navy.
b. Read the future procrurement plan of IN
c. Before doing that read the current inventory and procurement ..
Huge and bulky those destroyers may be but its the subsystems that make thw qualitative difference. Anyone who is well versed in Naval matters will know and agree to what I say.

Like I said, please "enlighten" us. Show us which ships are in use, what weapons systems are being utilized, subsystems, etc. Back it up with sources.
I'm not the one who should have to look, you made a claim so back it up.

a. You don't have iota of knowledge(first hand) regarding both the platform, so quit talknig like you have worked with the sub.
b. Does induction date even matter, what difference will 3 U 214 make. At best it will make IN's life little difficult. Even this is nullified with investment in ASW assets by IN.

lol... is that some sort of joke? please do enlighten us on IN ASW assets. I'm definitely sure now, you have no idea what you are talking about.

c. If IN thought U 214 was the best out there after taking a look at it, it would have got them, period. Unlike you I don' see factors like embargo, spares etc being a deciding factor. So If IN rejected it there must be a sure damming reason..
d. Even if there is a qualitative difference between Scorpene and U 214(which s at best minimal), did it even occur to that the chances of both engaging each other will be minimal .
e. Do you have plans to counter IN's procurement plans for second line of subs.

There's no small difference, it's a difference of one generation in sub-design. I've explained the reasons above. Why don't you "enlighten" us on india's procurement plans for second line of subs?

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Asad and Super Falcon
Brothers I love you for your valour and the pridein your country, but a couple of things to note. If IN surface platforms are not that good, neither are PNs. Type 21s have had their share of headachesand virtually are on the verge of retirement. We have 3 decent subs and 2 so so. Love for PN aside Idont see us in any better condition.
As to U214vs Scorpene debate, read some of Jliu's posts on the matter. He knows his stuff.
i think it is a serious mistake to underestimate the enemy and this baulshy behaviour has gotten us a drubbing so many times that I cant tell you. Pragmatism demands that we understasnd that our policy is one of deterrance and not a match for equality/quantity. We will always loose out in a conventional war beause we do not have enough resources and on top of that you need to understand the dynamics of world politics vis a cvis India Pakistan.
All that we can say is that once all our plans materialize we will make life very difficult for the Indians but that would be about it.
WaSalam

Araz sahib, this is what Jliu had to say,

There is no formal generation classification per se for SSKs among navies and even then there are various methods of assessing platform capability. This is because as I have mentioned earlier different vendors taking different 'philosophical' approaches to SSK design. The French prefer an incremental 'phasing' approach ie. simply developing an "mini" SSK version of an existing SSN design as we can see with the Scorpene/Rubis and Marlin/Barrcauda. The Germans, Swedes and to an extent Russians prefer a mission driven and focused design approach resulting in numerous versions of one design optimised for a certain mission set or geographical locale.

This makes it difficult to categorise design generations so most Western navies and industry have decided to assess "generations/tiers" (and by implication capability) by a) the time period of design conceptualisation and b) the technological base of the platform. Present Tier Three platforms include the U212 and derivatives U214 and Dolphin, Marlin, S-80A, Swedish designs/Collins class and the Japanese Soryu and Oyashio. There is disagreement over whether the Scorpene should be included (I believe not) but it has been added (IN variant only) after the sensor fit of the Indian P75 project became known.

T3 platforms were conceptualised in the 2000's and incorporate Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) technology in the sensors and Combat Management System (CMS) with the open systems architecture model providing flexible improvements in computing/processing power to be added to the platform when available. However what clearly separates Tier Three designs from previous designs is 'sensor fusion' capability which combines a certain standard of high quality data from all sensors into a big picture via the central CMS as elaborated by P2BP's post earlier on this page. The second distinction between a T3 and non T3 platform is the hydrodynamics of the T3 platform that facilitate the placement and effectiveness of sensors mounted on the hull. T3 platforms feature overwhelmingly CAD 'teardrop' (cigar shaped) hulls that optimise flow (with the placement of sensors all over the hull and behind it) as well as certain performance related characteristics such as X shaped Tailplanes and thrusters? for littoral maneuvering eg. U212 and Marlin although it should be noted that other T3 designs such as the S-80A and U214 feature normal Cross shaped Tailplanes. This is what truly distinguishes T3 platforms from non T3 platforms say a new build Agosta90 that has been fitted with the latest sensors.

Other indications of a T3 design include the fit of an AIP system and the use of a new generation of torpedos such as the Blackshark, DM2A4, Mk48 and the upcoming French improvement on the BS (although these are generalisations). Therefore we only make the distinction between non Tier Three and Tier Three platforms except in the case of specific country comparisons such as the Indo-Pak undersea arms for TRADOC purposes. The reason for all the hype surrounding T3 designs is that by nature SSKs and all submarines are area/sea denial weapons in an era where 95% of the world's transport particularly of food and petroleum is carried by sea. T3 designs promise unprecedented survivability for an SSK and cause give naval strategists around the world nightmares in terms of one sitting in a national SLOC. Indeed, my job is to devise ways in the TRADOC field to kill SSKs in the most efficient and quick way.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

ol... you still failed to prove your claim on india's so-called hydrogen "big" bomb. the only source you could find is a naval officer with no experience with the nuclear field, struggling in an uphill battle to prove that india detonated a hydrogen bomb.

Cut the crap.. the debate was about Pakistans facility to perform simulation and you proved jack..

Like I said, please "enlighten" us. Show us which ships are in use, what weapons systems are being utilized, subsystems, etc. Back it up with sources.
I'm not the one who should have to look, you made a claim so back it up.

Simple read the forum... I am not jobless like you... Enough has been posted and debated in this forum itself.

There's no small difference, it's a difference of one generation in sub-design. I've explained the reasons above. Why don't you "enlighten" us on india's procurement plans for second line of subs?

Doe it even matter, why don't you google it yourself.. The point is you dont have one in your charts to counter it..

IPF

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Cut the crap.. the debate was about Pakistans facility to perform simulation and you proved jack..

it was also about a hydrogen "big" (courtesy of BJP) bomb failing to explode, which you rushed to defend.

Simple read the forum... I am not jobless like you... Enough has been posted and debated in this forum itself.

Don't worry, I have a life, studies, and a computer that overheats. You make a claim, you prove it, that is a rule on this forum.

Doe it even matter, why don't you google it yourself.. The point is you dont have one in your charts to counter it..
IPF

you make a claim, you prove it. It's not my job or headache. do everyone a favor, don't waste anyone's time anymore with your pa"trolling" duty, there's enough hindutva cyber warriors lurking around.