Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214

[asaad-ul-islam]

France came up with a totally new submarine, the Marlin, and offered it to Pakistan. This is not the scorpene, a joint spanish and french project I'm talking about, this is the pure DCN Marlin.The PN rejected the Marlin, they chose the U-214. That says a lot about what's more superior.

The Scorpene will be outdated compared to the U-214 when both come into the arena, which will be roughly around the same time. This has been discussed before by our friend Jliu, who claimed that we wouldn't be getting the U-214 and India would instead.

Also, Pakistan had a lot more influence on Germany for this deal. The purchase is pretty much a joint purchase by Turkey, which is ordering a total of 6 subs, and Pakistan is currently ordering 3 and will definitely order more depending on other shipyards being built. Turkey will go on ahead and develop its own projects with the submarine-torpedoes, sonars, TAS, command and control systems, etc.-which Pakistan will also benefit from. Basically we help in places where they lack, and they help us in places we lack like radars, sonars, etc.

 

[Quwa]

France came up with a totally new submarine, the Marlin, and offered it to Pakistan. This is not the scorpene, a joint spanish and french project I'm talking about, this is the pure DCN Marlin.The PN rejected the Marlin, they chose the U-214. That says a lot about what's more superior.

The Scorpene will be outdated compared to the U-214 when both come into the arena, which will be roughly around the same time. This has been discussed before by our friend Jliu, who claimed that we wouldn't be getting the U-214 and India would instead.

Also, Pakistan had a lot more influence on Germany for this deal. The purchase is pretty much a joint purchase by Turkey, which is ordering a total of 6 subs, and Pakistan is currently ordering 3 and will definitely order more depending on other shipyards being built. Turkey will go on ahead and develop its own projects with the submarine-torpedoes, sonars, TAS, command and control systems, etc.-which Pakistan will also benefit from. Basically we help in places where they lack, and they help us in places we lack like radars, sonars, etc.

Pakistan is developing its own towed array sonar (TAS) for U214:
Modernizing Navy Boosts Pakistan's Maritime Firms - Defense News

Though there's no doubt that Pakistan will cooperate with Turkey on a lot of U214's subsystems...especially in the area of sensors, electronics, torpedoes, etc. I've heard talk of joint-cooperation in the area of fuel-cells as well...Pakistan is looking to achieve a very high margin of indigenization with this project.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Pakistan is developing its own towed array sonar (TAS) for U214:
Modernizing Navy Boosts Pakistan's Maritime Firms - Defense News

oh yes, I forgot about that.

Though there's no doubt that Pakistan will cooperate with Turkey on a lot of U214's subsystems...especially in the area of sensors, electronics, torpedoes, etc. I've heard talk of joint-cooperation in the area of fuel-cells as well...Pakistan is looking to achieve a very high margin of indigenization with this project.

do you think there's any possibility of building one or two U-214 in Turkey, especially if we go ahead and order more? we don't want to wait until 2020 to have a large fleet of 12 or more submarines.

I'm sure Pakistan has the advantage when it comes to hull building/manufacturing and other "large-scale" processes. Turkey definitely excels in the field of electronics, sonar, and command&control systems.

They will benefit more towards the "large-scale" processes I'm talking about, and we might benefit from the subsystems and electronics if complete transfer of technology is involved. I'm sure that kind of ToT we are hoping for may very well be part of the agreement, since Pakistan will definitely want more indigenization after its experience with Agostas. Besides that, we will definitely benefit from Turkish electronics, sonars (large), and command&control systems.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

This submarine is just too sexy for India, glad she will be docking in Pakistani waters.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Also Type 212 is more advanced than 214, mainly due to lack of magnetic hull on latter but the 214 has better performance, can dive deeper and is built of higher grade material.

 

[EagleEyes]

I think it is time to move for Pakistan from jst building subs to designing and developing them.

Too much to absorb in too little time.

 

[EagleEyes]

I aint need to prove anything .. if you still don't know then you are either lazy to read or too proud to accept. Compare the micro procrurement aspects and you will see the larger picture. As they say the devil lies in detail > Radar, air defense radar procrurement(for Navy), AAM,s and I can still go on. Please tell me why PN surface fleet with three odd 214 is qualitatively superior to IN. AFAIK PN surface combatants are nothing short of joke. If you can swallow some pride read about IN and its future procurements and order sheets. Why should I dig it up. Even this forum has pretty much good details with regards to IN..
IPF

Learn to behave yourself, indiapakistanfriendship. There is no need to show attitude on this forum.

Thanks.

 

[araz]

Hello all.
Friends we have a lot of hot temper being exhibited here, which is not in keeping with the spirit of the forum. Kindly control your tempers and think logically. At the end of the day we are all friends here interacting with and exchanging information and consequently learning from each other. And PLEASE who so ever is writing in RED please stop it. I would hate to see some one banned. Remember, we all learn from each other NOt THRUST OUR IDEAS DOWN EACH OTHERS THROATS. If you disagree make a valid point, not an angry remark.
KEEP smiling
Araz

 

[araz]

I thought I would have my input in a second email.
Someone raised the PN vs IN debate. Indian Navy is a lot larger and certainly more developed. There might be a slight qualitative advantage to PN in the Subsurface fleet, but this is minimal and will soon be over ridden when the Scorpenes join the fleet. They are a generation ahead of the Agostas that we have and MESMA in its own rights will not cut too much grass when it comes to a fightout(GOD FORBID).
Secondly the question of german vs french. I am as much of a novice as Joe blog. But what I have learnt over the yrs is that PN,s choice was swayed in favour of the Germans due to 2 or 3 reasons.
A. The german platforms are being procured by a few friendly countries and therefore there will be a level of security with regards to spare parts and services. In any case the german setup is a much better one as they are better with supplying parrts for U214 as they are in service with their own navy. The Agosta is not(Janes ) currently in French inventry.
B: U214 has had its teething porblems sorted and is an established sub in many Navies. The Turkish order helped PN in its decision making as there may be a lot of scope in developing things further without it costing an arm and a leg. The Marlin was a paper submarine and the Scorpene cannot be sold to PN due to contract restrictions by the IN.
C: capability wise they are pretty much in the same class, but from Pns point of view it provides them with capabilities which they have argued for for quite some time.
D: I am certain that german boats will form the backbone for PN and Turkish next generation submarinewith SLCM facilities. Iam certain that U214s have 533mm torpedo ports from which CMs can be launched .
My 2Ps worth
WaSalam
Araz

 

[Munir]

Adding to that U214 is including Harpoon and anti air (IrisT) option. That means a lot of potential included... Something PN had to pay for to get as an extra from the French option....

 

[fatman17]

Defense | 26.11.2008

Pakistan to Buy German Submarines

A German company will produce the submarines in Pakistan

Pakistan, which has relied on French defense suppliers, is buying German-made submarines for the first time, but is still technologically behind its nuclear rival India.

Pakistan has formally agreed to buy three Type 214 German submarines under deal worth more than $1 billion (773.7 million euros) that the two countries are expected to sign within the next few months, according to a media report on Wednesday.

The German shipbuilding company Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) will construct the diesel-electric submarines in a shipyard in Pakistan's southern port city of Karachi, Pakistan's English-language daily The News reported.

"The commercial contract has been finalized up to 95 percent," said Walter Freitag, the chief executive officer of the HDW, the largest conventional submarine maker in the world.

Freitag, who was interviewed by the newspaper during a defense products exhibition called IDEAS 2008 in Karachi, said that once the contract is signed, the first submarine would be delivered to the Pakistan navy in 64 months, with the rest delivered in the following 12 months.

Pakistan has traditionally relied on French submarines for its naval defense. This is first time that Karachi has opted for German boats.

Earlier, the French firm Armaris, a subsidiary of Thales group, had lobbied for the sale of three Marlin type submarines. The company delivered the last one to Pakistan in 2006.

"The Pakistan navy understands submarines and ours are the best," Freitag said. "We use higher grade steel material, which allows greater diving depth. Also, we have fuel cell AIPs and can integrate Harpoons with the Type 214."

The non-nuclear Type 214 is a 65-meter-long boat which can dive more than 25 meters, but it lacks the technology to avoid detection.

Pakistan's quest for new submarines was prompted by its traditional nuclear-armed rival India reaching a 1.5-billion-euro deal in 2005 with a French company for seven Scorpion submarines.

dpa news agency (df)

 

[eagleeye]

I think it is the best choice for both Countrys. the most importent is, that Turkey will use there own Command and Control system Sub version of genesis. I hope PN will integrate the same subsystems like Turkey. Both Nayvs are able to integrate different Weapons and systems if they want. After then all embargoes are meaningless. I think its not long way to integrate sub Version of Babur .

 

[Myth_buster_1]

PN U-214 deal with Germany will only be a basic version. it will be very disappointing if PN upgrades the u-214 later in 2025 with turkish systems. other customers are paying alot for the u boats but since our is a basic version its cheap. or other reason could be that PN does not want some german systems on board over more advance turkish indigenous systems.

my version of PN 2019 sub fleet

- 3 + 1 Agosta-90B AIP
- 3 + 3 U-214
- 2 Chinese latest Nuclear powered Sub.
PN should try to push for another U-214 batch.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

I thought I would have my input in a second email.
Someone raised the PN vs IN debate. Indian Navy is a lot larger and certainly more developed. There might be a slight qualitative advantage to PN in the Subsurface fleet, but this is minimal and will soon be over ridden when the Scorpenes join the fleet. They are a generation ahead of the Agostas that we have and MESMA in its own rights will not cut too much grass when it comes to a fightout(GOD FORBID).
Secondly the question of german vs french. I am as much of a novice as Joe blog. But what I have learnt over the yrs is that PN,s choice was swayed in favour of the Germans due to 2 or 3 reasons.
A. The german platforms are being procured by a few friendly countries and therefore there will be a level of security with regards to spare parts and services. In any case the german setup is a much better one as they are better with supplying parrts for U214 as they are in service with their own navy. The Agosta is not(Janes ) currently in French inventry.
B: U214 has had its teething porblems sorted and is an established sub in many Navies. The Turkish order helped PN in its decision making as there may be a lot of scope in developing things further without it costing an arm and a leg. The Marlin was a paper submarine and the Scorpene cannot be sold to PN due to contract restrictions by the IN.
C: capability wise they are pretty much in the same class, but from Pns point of view it provides them with capabilities which they have argued for for quite some time.
D: I am certain that german boats will form the backbone for PN and Turkish next generation submarinewith SLCM facilities. Iam certain that U214s have 533mm torpedo ports from which CMs can be launched .
My 2Ps worth
WaSalam
Araz

Araz sahib,
there is a very strong reason why I asked trolls to create totally new thread, and support themselves with facts and full detail. It's true the Indian Navy's surface fleet is large, but the question is, what ships?

Pakistan does not have just a slight qualitative advantage in the submarine field, we have a large advantage. I suggest you read up on just how many of india's submarines are "willing and able" to head out into sea. Secondly, please check up on the age of their sub-surface fleet.

I also made it very clear to the indians, "PLEASE do not switch timelines around!" for example, when talking about Agosta's, indians will bring up Scorpenes which won't be inducted far from when we get our first U-214. Also, in terms of subsystems, electronics, sonars, etc, our Agosta's are not that inferior to their Scorpenes as you think, if not equal.

Third, some of your reasons for purchasing the U-boat are correct, some are wrong. We purchased these subs, obviously because they are more superior to the Scorpenes. Secondly, these subs are more superior to the Marlin as well and are more reliable, unlike the Marlin which is a paper design. Much of the Marlin will have similar qualities you find in the Scorpene.

The Germans (HDW) are the best conventional submarine designers/manufacturers in the planet. Pakistan's choice is largely based on the submarine's capabilities, not because of spares. Spares and sanctions is not that big of an issue, we are building these subs ourselves. Trust me, we are in a far more better position than we were when we built our Agostas. Please do not be so pessimistic about our armed forces, they aren't sitting there. Also, do not buy into this crap floating around on almost every forum, all of which are hijacked by indians, that their equipment is so superior... cough...MKI.

 

[metalfalcon]

Who is being personal ? U donot know anything about submarines but are ready to lecture people like me which is the best submarine.

BTW how are you going to intergrate the Harpoon on the U 214 ?

Regards

As i said before " I think You are Mr. I KNOW EVERYTHING, Dear if you can read English well and understand it correctly, what i said was that this SUB U-214 is ONE of the Best NOT NO 1, but its good for Navies like Pakistan and Turkey.

And please don't challenge me I know about Subs and other military stuff a lot and i don't give a damn what India is interested in or why she is not buying that stuff and buying that stuff, Please don't judge other people so that they don't judge you and i don't want to lecture you.

BTW how are you going to intergrate the Harpoon on the U 214 ?

Leave this to us and Germans. You take care of yourself