Pakistani Nationalists should study Chinese and Japanese governing systems

[MultaniGuy]

Just giving examples here to explain a context.

Japanese invented Ninjutsu, Chinese invented Kung-fu - they would train at night, in secrecy to gain independence from their oppressor's. These nations had hard working public, they knew how to put in the effort and then reap its rewards. The public was willing to sacrifice itself.

In Pakistan's case, Jinnah did the hard work and put in the effort, the public did what its usually does - gathering to form a procession as a means of support to the leader, as seen on 23rd March 1940. The ultimate sacrifice from muslims of India started occurring after that and mainly in 1947 during migration, where millions perished.

In the absence of a leader like Jinnah, can public make a move on its own ?


Leader of MDP ?

Yes but the new generation of educated youth can fix the country.

China and Japan industrialized their societies. We too need to do same.

 

[Signalian]

Yes but the new generation of educated youth can fix the country.

Sacrifice ?
Nothing is gained without sacrifice.

Not a fix.

 

[Black.Mamba]

Yes but the new generation of educated youth can fix the country.

China and Japan industrialized their societies. We too need to do same.

The problem for Pakistan is while the "educated youth" will waste time reading things, learning new skills, trying to improve the country, out there will be a Brigadier, Colonel or General who will one day see great potential in Junaid Safdar or Mir Hakim.

If we keep on doing the things we have been doing for 70 years we will keep on getting the same results, for a change; a realisation needs to happen at the very top.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Sacrifice ?
Nothing is gained without sacrifice.

Not a fix.

And what sacrifice are you suggesting?

The problem for Pakistan is while the "educated youth" will waste time reading things, learning new skills, trying to improve the country, out there will be a Brigadier, Colonel or General who will one day see great potential in Junaid Safdar or Mir Hakim.

If we keep on doing the things we have been doing for 70 years we will keep on getting the same results, for a change; a realisation needs to happen at the very top.

Agreed the leaders need to be technocrats and loyal to the country. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

[serenity]

cuzz you lack the basic fundamentals of understanding!

INHERENTLY the people of this part of the world are CORRUPT at a GENETIC level!

The Chinese and Japanese have a HUGE sense of national pride. Pride in their people and the Will to be a good citizen. In their Genome there in no way near as much moral bankruptcy as we have in our region.

No matter what system you bring in. for as long as people's DNA is morally corrupt! The system you talk about will fail.

This is just not true for everyone. You think we are that much more full of sense of being a good citizen but China at least is not quite as perfect as you say. We have our own weaknesses and corruption.

Japanese are much better. They are total hive mind creatures and almost all Japanese are perfect Empire Japan soldiers. Chinese are more often going to act for themselves as individuals and care little about their country.

The difference between our nations and the modern history of our nations is the governance. The Japanese enjoy incredible loyalty levels and dedication to improve their country. If we rate them at a 10, I would say Americans are 8 (pledge of allegiance and brainwashing of western narratives everyday everywhere and generally exhibit loyalty to their empire) and Chinese I would rate as 6 in loyalty. Indians would be 7. Islamic nations definitely higher on loyalty.

Corruption is rife all over the poorer countries and this includes China. It's just maybe not as bad as many other places but it's still present. The government addresses this though unlike most places on earth. China executes many corrupt leaders. Yes many don't get caught or get off the hook because they know others and they are not touchable for a while. But despite corruption being rife everywhere I do not see other nations imprisoning for life or executing corrupt people. China does a bit better on this regard by at least making some effort although not perfect.

Development is all in policy and understanding self and understanding the problem. The problem is easy to understand. The self is hard to admit. I think the east Asian characteristic you are referring to is less about how loyal we are (we are not, except Japanese) but much more to do with east Asian tendency to be realistic and less imaginative about delusions and fantasies. Fantasies and susceptibility to adopt fantasies into policy and systemic thinking is a south Asian problem. It is a ingrained thing. Look at how much more religious it is. Europeans rebelled against the church and stood up to bring the enlightenment.

I am not saying to not be spiritual or believe in greater things but to at least separate the material world and the beliefs. Indians do this on another level altogether and they belief WILD shit and import fantasy into decision making and understanding of self and understanding problem (or enemy). It is filled with delusion and inaccurate understanding of real world at every level.

We are generalizing a lot but these things are generally true. Without understanding an engineering problem, how can one really start working on solving it? The indians are like making up their own version of the question and then telling themselves they have solved their society's problems.

 

[serenity]

The problem for Pakistan is while the "educated youth" will waste time reading things, learning new skills, trying to improve the country, out there will be a Brigadier, Colonel or General who will one day see great potential in Junaid Safdar or Mir Hakim.

If we keep on doing the things we have been doing for 70 years we will keep on getting the same results, for a change; a realisation needs to happen at the very top.

And what sacrifice are you suggesting?


Agreed the leaders need to be technocrats and loyal to the country. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

A big part is holding onto smart and valuable people or attracting them back home.

On this front China and Japan do much better. Japan is understandable due to heavy cultural allegiance which China honestly doesn't compare to Japan mostly due to Japan being more developed and wealthier. South Asian countries are much poorer than China and development is still at starting out levels in fact for most people it is too low. The basic level of development must first be strived for before any other thoughts about the next steps towards development.

Build sanitation, piped water, clean up cities, build decent accommodation. Start building cities or improving them to a level that begins holding onto second rate talents and then eventually first rate talents.

This is why it's ridiculous to imagine India getting anywhere in the next few decades. It has not really truly begun the ground works which take many decades to complete. India's development strategy appears to be using disproportionate resources to propel a top strata while being okay with ignoring literally more than 50% of their population. This is strategy for failure and will only produce pockets of top tier areas/talents/industries and nothing else plus nothing of true scale. As much as they talk about population dividend, all who promote that soundbite simply do not care to understand it thoroughly or benefit from misleading the stupid (which are the majority even in countries like China lol).

Clean up, sanitation, buildings, infrastructure, safety, stability, hold onto third rate talent, then second rate, then first rate and promote industry as you go along. On this, as much as India focuses more on top strata while ignoring majority, they are still doing better than Pakistan! I do not like this for one of China's strategic allies. I am not trying to hurt people's feelings but Indians are at greater level than Pakistan with this even if it's limited to maybe only the top 20% of their society if not still less. They have in the last twenty years started building for the top players to do something to lift their bottom but they aren't lifting their bottom and that's a distribution problem for them to deal with. Suffering and India go hand in hand not simply because of others (UK) but they are themselves unkind to their own bottom strata. China had similar problems until bottom strata stood up against internal enemies abusing that system and thankfully (for the nation of China) had a revolution to change things. India will not because their people's tolerance for suffering in this regard is actually higher than Chinese. I suppose certain aspects of their religion assist on this.

So many things to do that will take many decades just to get on the path of middle income country. Meanwhile the preferred action of some seem to be excuse making, attack others, make ridiculous soundbites and expect quick solutions. I do not believe South Asia will even approach middle income status until people get real and stop talking down on others and just mouthing all day rather than actually working. Again there will be ones here thinking well **** China you guys just copied paste and stole everything... to that it is exactly what I talked about above. Stay in denial and stay in delusion to those (not you guys but readers/others). The caravan moves on.

 

[MultaniGuy]

A big part is holding onto smart and valuable people or attracting them back home.

On this front China and Japan do much better. Japan is understandable due to heavy cultural allegiance which China honestly doesn't compare to Japan mostly due to Japan being more developed and wealthier. South Asian countries are much poorer than China and development is still at starting out levels in fact for most people it is too low. The basic level of development must first be strived for before any other thoughts about the next steps towards development.

Build sanitation, piped water, clean up cities, build decent accommodation. Start building cities or improving them to a level that begins holding onto second rate talents and then eventually first rate talents.

This is why it's ridiculous to imagine India getting anywhere in the next few decades. It has not really truly begun the ground works which take many decades to complete. India's development strategy appears to be using disproportionate resources to propel a top strata while being okay with ignoring literally more than 50% of their population. This is strategy for failure and will only produce pockets of top tier areas/talents/industries and nothing else plus nothing of true scale. As much as they talk about population dividend, all who promote that soundbite simply do not care to understand it thoroughly or benefit from misleading the stupid (which are the majority even in countries like China lol).

Clean up, sanitation, buildings, infrastructure, safety, stability, hold onto third rate talent, then second rate, then first rate and promote industry as you go along. On this, as much as India focuses more on top strata while ignoring majority, they are still doing better than Pakistan! I do not like this for one of China's strategic allies. I am not trying to hurt people's feelings but Indians are at greater level than Pakistan with this even if it's limited to maybe only the top 20% of their society if not still less. They have in the last twenty years started building for the top players to do something to lift their bottom but they aren't lifting their bottom and that's a distribution problem for them to deal with. Suffering and India go hand in hand not simply because of others (UK) but they are themselves unkind to their own bottom strata. China had similar problems until bottom strata stood up against internal enemies abusing that system and thankfully (for the nation of China) had a revolution to change things. India will not because their people's tolerance for suffering in this regard is actually higher than Chinese. I suppose certain aspects of their religion assist on this.

So many things to do that will take many decades just to get on the path of middle income country. Meanwhile the preferred action of some seem to be excuse making, attack others, make ridiculous soundbites and expect quick solutions. I do not believe South Asia will even approach middle income status until people get real and stop talking down on others and just mouthing all day rather than actually working. Again there will be ones here thinking well **** China you guys just copied paste and stole everything... to that it is exactly what I talked about above. Stay in denial and stay in delusion to those (not you guys but readers/others). The caravan moves on.

I appreciate your constructive criticism when you say India is better than Pakistan in some areas.

Only an arrogant idiot would not take constructive criticism. Thank you for your advice.

 

[Beast]

This is just not true for everyone. You think we are that much more full of sense of being a good citizen but China at least is not quite as perfect as you say. We have our own weaknesses and corruption.

Japanese are much better. They are total hive mind creatures and almost all Japanese are perfect Empire Japan soldiers. Chinese are more often going to act for themselves as individuals and care little about their country.

The difference between our nations and the modern history of our nations is the governance. The Japanese enjoy incredible loyalty levels and dedication to improve their country. If we rate them at a 10, I would say Americans are 8 (pledge of allegiance and brainwashing of western narratives everyday everywhere and generally exhibit loyalty to their empire) and Chinese I would rate as 6 in loyalty. Indians would be 7. Islamic nations definitely higher on loyalty.

Corruption is rife all over the poorer countries and this includes China. It's just maybe not as bad as many other places but it's still present. The government addresses this though unlike most places on earth. China executes many corrupt leaders. Yes many don't get caught or get off the hook because they know others and they are not touchable for a while. But despite corruption being rife everywhere I do not see other nations imprisoning for life or executing corrupt people. China does a bit better on this regard by at least making some effort although not perfect.

Development is all in policy and understanding self and understanding the problem. The problem is easy to understand. The self is hard to admit. I think the east Asian characteristic you are referring to is less about how loyal we are (we are not, except Japanese) but much more to do with east Asian tendency to be realistic and less imaginative about delusions and fantasies. Fantasies and susceptibility to adopt fantasies into policy and systemic thinking is a south Asian problem. It is a ingrained thing. Look at how much more religious it is. Europeans rebelled against the church and stood up to bring the enlightenment.

I am not saying to not be spiritual or believe in greater things but to at least separate the material world and the beliefs. Indians do this on another level altogether and they belief WILD shit and import fantasy into decision making and understanding of self and understanding problem (or enemy). It is filled with delusion and inaccurate understanding of real world at every level.

We are generalizing a lot but these things are generally true. Without understanding an engineering problem, how can one really start working on solving it? The indians are like making up their own version of the question and then telling themselves they have solved their society's problems.

Lol.. what times are u living in? You think Japan is still imperial Japann in the 1940?

US has disassemble the old imperial Japan system and the total loyalty to Emperor and Japan is not more. I seriously do not know where did u get such idea? Japan is surely proud of their level of sophistication and domination in the 90s but that is eroding fast with Japan decling ever. To rate Japanese loyalty to their country of 10 out of 10 just shown u are out of touch with reality. Japanese are sure 10 out of 10 proud of their culture but 5 out of 10 for loyalty to country.

I appreciate your constructive criticism when you say India is better than Pakistan in some areas.

Only an arrogant idiot would not take constructive criticism. Thank you for your advice.

Do not trust this guy words. He got all the perception wrong and paint a wrong picture of East Asia.

I appreciate your constructive criticism when you say India is better than Pakistan in some areas.

Only an arrogant idiot would not take constructive criticism. Thank you for your advice.

Do not trust this guy words. He got all the perception wrong and paint a wrong picture of East Asia.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Lol.. what times are u living in? You think Japan is still imperial Japann in the 1940?

US has disassemble the old imperial Japan system and the total loyalty to Emperor and Japan is not more. I seriously do not know where did u get such idea? Japan is surely proud of their level of sophistication and domination in the 90s but that is eroding fast with Japan decling ever. To rate Japanese loyalty to their country of 10 out of 10 just shown u are out of touch with reality.


Do not trust this guy words. He got all the perception wrong and paint a wrong picture of East Asia.


Do not trust this guy words. He got all the perception wrong and paint a wrong picture of East Asia.

No problem, you are a trusted member here, I take your words seriously.

 

[Signalian]

And what sacrifice are you suggesting?


Agreed the leaders need to be technocrats and loyal to the country. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Stand without a leader against corruption, against dictatorships, against injustice - not just walk on the roads to protest but take practical meaningful steps to enlighten media, go through the legal system and play with it like Jinnah, flood online portals with complaints backed by video/audio proofs, be strong enough to register FIRs in POs against anyone, use community unity as a tool to put pressure on local Govt officials, use the law, constitution for yourself against the system etc. Public dwells in all forms of life - businessmen, govt officials, police, military, bank employees, etc.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Stand without a leader against corruption, against dictatorships, against injustice - not just walk on the roads to protest but take practical meaningful steps to enlighten media, go through the legal system and play with it like Jinnah, flood online portals with complaints backed by video/audio proofs, be strong enough to register FIRs in POs against anyone, use community unity as a tool to put pressure on local Govt officials, use the law, constitution for yourself against the system etc. Public dwells in all forms of life - businessmen, govt officials, police, military, bank employees, etc.

Yes I concur with you.

 

[Signalian]

Yes I concur with you.

The reason I said without a leader, coz when a group starts to work together, the person with leadership qualities starts to emerge from the group, I have seen that in different technical, management trainings and team building measures. Its better to let the leader shine from the rest based on his/her qualities rather than nominating a person from the start and then waste time training/grooming for leadership role.

 

[serenity]

Lol.. what times are u living in? You think Japan is still imperial Japann in the 1940?

US has disassemble the old imperial Japan system and the total loyalty to Emperor and Japan is not more. I seriously do not know where did u get such idea? Japan is surely proud of their level of sophistication and domination in the 90s but that is eroding fast with Japan decling ever. To rate Japanese loyalty to their country of 10 out of 10 just shown u are out of touch with reality. Japanese are sure 10 out of 10 proud of their culture but 5 out of 10 for loyalty to country.


Do not trust this guy words. He got all the perception wrong and paint a wrong picture of East Asia.


Do not trust this guy words. He got all the perception wrong and paint a wrong picture of East Asia.

Man you're too much sometimes.

It is my experience dealing and talking with Japanese and my experience with Chinese people that the loyalty is ground and sky in difference. Chinese like us are maybe 2 out of 10 who are at least understanding of how real world is and works. The other 8 Chinese out of that, at least 2 will sell their country and their mothers. Come on you know how common hanjian are right? The remaining are just neutral world citizens which are the majority of people around the world but with Japan 9 out of 10 are still the same ethos as pre war type. They are just controlled now and have been demilitarized and crippled by the US.

The Japanese are a race of very loyal and hive minded people. Culturally and individually. Chinese have much more ethnic diversity for one thing. So much province vs province with us and we have a history of self arguing. Just look at Taiwan. I have met Fujian Chinese absolutely pro China and anti Taiwan but Taiwanese are mostly Fujian people. That's how difficult we are with each other and how much we have less unity than Japanese. Japanese are scary. Only Americans nearly match the Japanese for swearing loyalty and to the point of suicidal fanaticism and even then it's only some parts of USA and some people. Can you imagine Chinese being that way? So so few. With the Japanese it's the majority. They are just simply more scared of war than they are in the past because this is the first time in Japanese history that they have been wealthy. Chinese worship brands, status, money. Japanese worship honor and their country and they used to think of their emperor as a God. Chinese killed our emperors when they did poor jobs. Japanese will kill themselves for their emperor.

But too much blind faith and obedience is never good. Even as CCP does amazing job for Chinese people, there are still I would say roughly 20% of Chinese who dislike CCP and 40% who criticize and think it can be better and complain all the time. So many relatives and friends are like this. It's a good thing a balance. Overall most still support as they do well. With Japanese, their government can be utter garbage and they will overwhelmingly still devote their lives to Japan the country and the government.

Throughout Japanese history they were regarded by not only Chinese but also Koreans as the most backwards and for 3000 years they were subsistence farmers until Meiji restoration and then opening up and first industrializing in Asia. That's their headstart but their people are not smarter than Chinese or Koreans in fact they are more stupid. It is their organization and their unity that allows them to be greater than the individual. We need more of that even though it's good now, it should be and can be better for China. Our aim is to be 10x little Japan and 100x its accumulated power. That isn't hard since Japan is so limited in land and resources. Their people had a massive head start on developing and already their edge is gone and has been for 20 years at least. It's just fumes and momentum but people still worship them due to western support of it. Just like with Korean pop and culture is now supported by the west as good asia while china is bad asia lol. Anyway who cares. There is only one thing that matters and it's wealth and power.

 

[serenity]

No problem, you are a trusted member here, I take your words seriously.

Thanks for understanding my post isn't to condemn or to disparage people. I want to see non western countries rise and improve. It is saddening to see middle income trap for most developing nations and the poorer ones barely even getting up still. Leveraging your advantages to full extent. Pakistan is geographically located in good position to take advantage of China, Middle East, and Europe trade and routes. This is CPEC. It is a project that in short and medium term (also long term) serves China but in long term can benefit Pakistan as well. Imagine what things are like in 50 years time. The balance of power, the multipolarity and the continued trade of the Mackinder heartland.

The other is population but it cannot be used until it reaches (for nearly everyone and this improves slowly over generations even China is still eradicating poverty) a certain minimum standard. Build up your country, get rid of mess and corruption as much as possible and realistically doable and keep improving. The Japanese (and western engineering term) for this is Kaizen. But the word comes from the Chinese GaiZeng meaning improve, adopt, change. Constant non stop new optimal points raised because the situation and status changes. That constant reforming it is not just simple ingredients to use at point X but constant dynamic reform. This is why India is simply soundbite nation and won't be anything more because they really do not understand things at all. Even to a low surface level, they miss everything.

Well one other thing is to become realistic and rational. Remove irrationality, fantasy, and delusions as much as possible. Reserve religion and belief systems for the individual's mind/soul but separate it from productivity. While the west won their way to the top by stealing from all over Asia and Africa and colonizing rich lands, it is harder for global south to pick up because we cannot outbuy the west. They can buy up and own everything that's useful. The only hope is they slide due to internal society degeneration while we do as much as we can to pull ourselves up. Indians could be improving at much better rates for the last 70 yeas but they have a cultural tendency towards fantasies and self delusion. Take that as a small lesson for what to do and what happens when a big society partakes in a shared delusion. Chinese equivalent of the past were old stupid traditions and superstitions not too unlike Indians.

 

[Beast]

Man you're too much sometimes.

It is my experience dealing and talking with Japanese and my experience with Chinese people that the loyalty is ground and sky in difference. Chinese like us are maybe 2 out of 10 who are at least understanding of how real world is and works. The other 8 Chinese out of that, at least 2 will sell their country and their mothers. Come on you know how common hanjian are right? The remaining are just neutral world citizens which are the majority of people around the world but with Japan 9 out of 10 are still the same ethos as pre war type. They are just controlled now and have been demilitarized and crippled by the US.

The Japanese are a race of very loyal and hive minded people. Culturally and individually. Chinese have much more ethnic diversity for one thing. So much province vs province with us and we have a history of self arguing. Just look at Taiwan. I have met Fujian Chinese absolutely pro China and anti Taiwan but Taiwanese are mostly Fujian people. That's how difficult we are with each other and how much we have less unity than Japanese. Japanese are scary. Only Americans nearly match the Japanese for swearing loyalty and to the point of suicidal fanaticism and even then it's only some parts of USA and some people. Can you imagine Chinese being that way? So so few. With the Japanese it's the majority. They are just simply more scared of war than they are in the past because this is the first time in Japanese history that they have been wealthy. Chinese worship brands, status, money. Japanese worship honor and their country and they used to think of their emperor as a God. Chinese killed our emperors when they did poor jobs. Japanese will kill themselves for their emperor.

But too much blind faith and obedience is never good. Even as CCP does amazing job for Chinese people, there are still I would say roughly 20% of Chinese who dislike CCP and 40% who criticize and think it can be better and complain all the time. So many relatives and friends are like this. It's a good thing a balance. Overall most still support as they do well. With Japanese, their government can be utter garbage and they will overwhelmingly still devote their lives to Japan the country and the government.

Throughout Japanese history they were regarded by not only Chinese but also Koreans as the most backwards and for 3000 years they were subsistence farmers until Meiji restoration and then opening up and first industrializing in Asia. That's their headstart but their people are not smarter than Chinese or Koreans in fact they are more stupid. It is their organization and their unity that allows them to be greater than the individual. We need more of that even though it's good now, it should be and can be better for China. Our aim is to be 10x little Japan and 100x its accumulated power. That isn't hard since Japan is so limited in land and resources. Their people had a massive head start on developing and already their edge is gone and has been for 20 years at least. It's just fumes and momentum but people still worship them due to western support of it. Just like with Korean pop and culture is now supported by the west as good asia while china is bad asia lol. Anyway who cares. There is only one thing that matters and it's wealth and power.

Lol.. I have seen enough people like pretend to have experience or dealing with others who just make up 0.0001 % of the reality. Japanese loyalty to country is different from their proud heritage of their culture. I think u are mixing up these 2. You ask how many Japanese now day will kamikazi for their Japan. Lol, virtually zero.