Pakistan-US joint air exercise - Falcon Talon III

[Aamir Hussain]

All these for a bunch of F16 ? Is the F 16 lobby that strong ?

Mr. Punit or whoever you are, please don't degrade yourself by writing things like that. If you are unable to comprehend what is written and in which context....I suggest one should refrain from opening ones mouth and letting everyone know what a fool one is. Btw this my first ever reply to an Indian poster

Is F16 still worth of you doing these?

It is not about F-16 only. The scenarios outlined by me are just some of the things Uncle Sam would like us to do for them for a greater largess including and not limited to Armaments.

 

[Aasimkhan]

Mr. Punit or whoever you are, please don't degrade yourself by writing things like that. If you are unable to comprehend what is written and in which context....I suggest one should refrain from opening ones mouth and letting everyone know what a fool one is. Btw this my first ever reply to an Indian poster


It is not about F-16 only. The scenarios outlined by me are just some of the things Uncle Sam would like us to do for them for a greater largess including and not limited to Armaments.

Days of Uncle Sams dictation are over. Times have changed. For USA winter is coming.

 

[punit]

Mr. Punit or whoever you are, please don't degrade yourself by writing things like that. If you are unable to comprehend what is written and in which context....I suggest one should refrain from opening ones mouth and letting everyone know what a fool one is. Btw this my first ever reply to an Indian poster


It is not about F-16 only. The scenarios outlined by me are just some of the things Uncle Sam would like us to do for them for a greater largess including and not limited to Armaments.

Congrats..And no need to trouble yourself any more..* ignored..*

 

[Umair Nawaz]

I would rather wait for an official word on this before starting a thread
not doubting your sources but our military and non military relations are down graded to say observer level.
if news turns out to be a dud then thread will become troll fest
even if something does get planned it might be called off due to the volatile nature of American administration and the sudden call of withdrawal of troops from Syria and Afghanistan and a known Pakistani hater Khalil lizard in the region. everyone competes in US to hate on Pakistan.


the snakes in the American power corridors would love to see confrontations between the two countries rather than such exercises so lets not play in the hands of such snakes.

imagine a snake like Hussain Haqqani who tirelessly advocated against selling us Zulus saying they were going to be used against the Indians. that scumbag will be rolling in pain when he finds out this small token exercise is taking place (if it takes place at all)

read post#99 and 101 to truly understand why we r saying this....its not about them its about us!!!!!!

 

[CriticalThought]

Aaloo ka parata ideas all over

Uncle please lehsan aur timatar ki chatni bhijwa dain. Buhat din huway hum nay aaloo kay parathay aur lehsan timatar ki chatni nahi khai.

 

[JohnWick]

Bro, F16 blk70 and J16 are different concept.

I was talking in BVR fight condition.

 

[araz]

analyse these things by not the limited lense of military, but in the entire spectrum of global relations!
Yr analysis looks very limited and hallow!
Thank You!

Perhaps you might want to share your thoughts. You need to understand that at the end of the day this is a purely military matter and analysis needs to fit the perspective. But by all means project your point of view and we can talk.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

We did pretty well for the past 18 years to defend our homeland against a 5th gen warfare imposed by the US. We had to bleed and sacrifice, but we stood up and looked the enemies straight in the eyes. The US also made use of NATO forces and rougue Indian intelligence apparatus to seek cover. The Americans used every ploy in the book to harm and attack Pakistan. It didn't go well for them. They used brazen Salala like attacks and they also used ethnic and religious faultlines to create chaos. I shouldn't be reiterating any of this because you already know this more than any of us.

No one in their right mind would want a confrontation with US. No one is seeking a confrontation. Ordinary Pakistanis are simply sick and tired of a backstabbing and deceitful relationship with the US. The US is like a bloodsucking leech unwilling to let Pakistan go. The vast majority of Pakistanis want bare minimum relations with the US. The current relationship is just fine where Pakistan is not a client state seeking economic and military aid in exchange for extremely harmful favors. The people want an honest and a cordial relationship with China and the neighborhood. That doesn't equal to confrontation and hostility with the USA.

This exercise means zilch to the broken relationship between Pakistan and the US. The US is clearly recognizing how it has lost the war in Afghanistan. In the process it has utterly destroyed the relationship with Pakistan. To put in perspective, 18 years of bloodshed and carnage to be precise. This amount of destruction and misery cannot be merely fixed with an exercise between PAF and USAF.

By all means go ahead with the exercise, but don't expect relations to be normal. The relationship is broken and dysfunctional on many levels. Pakistan needs to remain neutral at best.

You don't shake hands with someone who tried to rob and kill you. Even if the killer is bigger, stronger and intimidating. As a little guy you keep distance.

Hi,

We have yet to feel the breath of the dragon---.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Perhaps you might want to share your thoughts. You need to understand that at the end of the day this is a purely military matter and analysis needs to fit the perspective. But by all means project your point of view and we can talk.
A

read post#99 and post#101..........and no its not just a military matter u are completely overlooking its effects and implications(this is not about America, this is about us and our future and the ability of Them to influence that future!) , as i said yr looking at it in a very limited sphere and in hence yr analysis is hallow!

 

[waz]

Ithink one needs to be pragmatic. Allow me to give you an example. The Saudis have funded our Government for decades and we havs no reason to deny that their help at critical junctures has been pivotal in getting Paklands out of the pile of doo doo it had dug itself into. Yet when they asked us for contributions towards the Yemen war (at least on the surface) we refused. Does that make us untrustworthy. We went back to the Saudis and they helped us out again.
The lesson that needs to be learned by Paklands and its people is that ANY country helps you because its interests are alligned with yours. So why do we blame the US for our own stupid perceptions.
Now as to this notion that the US want to take a peek into your defence systems. COME ON. Yara in a country where every file gets sold for a couple of thousnd rupees, where most of your communication systems have US components do you think there is anything that you have which is hidden from them. How much interest would the JFT generate for the US playing around with the 22s and 35s.
So that is not the reason for them coming. If you analyze the situation closely you will realize that difference of techniques are the only thing that can surprise them. This is something you might be able to do once or twice but not always. They also are exposing their methodology for attacking and defending and you leearn from it and evolve. So it could be a 2 way street and the benefits favour PAF more than the US.
THE US is only coming to repair some of the damage that Donald Trump has wreaked. The military to military relations have always been good and their is an understanding of each other's positions. Pakistan has now got a different set of priorities but the US wants to keep Pak lands in the loop by maintaining good relations which is our need as well. So understand the situation on the ground and put your best foot forward. You can only learn from experiences.
A

Bottom line whether we like it or not....our armed forces are not equipped, trained or indoctrinated to fight a super power and take them head on. Fighting through a proxy on foreign land when top nine military powers amongst the top ten are behind you is one thing but standing against the lone superpower is....well, a tall order, today.

That is the reason, rhetoric aside, sanity prevails in the corridors of power where reality is much somber and stark. Bombastic claims will get us into a shit hole very quickly if the saner backdoor diplomacy is not followed. US does that too.

And for those who think that others will come to our aid, no one will, even China will back out of an open confrontation with US and its so called allies at this point in time. The cost is just too much to pay for them.
They will also advise GoP to play it low for another 10 years. Untill China is fully geared up. Only then things will be much more interesting.

Some of you folks wont like what i have written, but this is the reality whether we like it or not.

This exercise will have its own benefits for us. After all, we have always shown superior skills in air war thanks to our training with western air forces.

Such training is not a one way street, it does benefit both sides. Isolating ourselves is not the answer. China has not engaged in active combat for a while. The last time they did in Indo-China, they got a bloody nose as did US.

But since then both countries have changed their doctrine, and tactics however US has been engaged in atleast four major conflicts that involved extensive use of air power. We can benefit from interacting with them:

Air to air refueling
Dissimilar aircraft combat including F22 and its hovering and thrust vectoring capability.
Operating under extensive jamming
Exposure to "Enemy" combat tactics.
etc.

My2C worth

Excellent posts gents.

 

[gangsta_rap]

When it served national interests of US, They gave the top of the line fighter plane to us at the time when it was being inducted in their airforce! And looked the other way on our nuclear ambitions. So AESA equipped F16 depends upon converging interests and how far we can go to deliver upon US interests in the region. Options for converging interests:

1. Be a hostile nation to Iran... High dividend game both from US, KSA & UAE perspective. High blow back at home. however, India nexus with Iran can be played cleverly with home crowd.
2. Let go of Kashmir and cozy up to India .... Lower dividends now. Mixed response at home. Need to package the deal in such a way that the bitter pill can be swallowed.
3. Let go of CPEC/China... High dividends. Ramp down CPEC, bargain for max from USA/KSA/UAE. No blow-back at home
4. Let go of our influence on Afgh Taliban...Now Med gain. Depends upon point 2.
5. Cozy up to Israel...Med dividend but high from Israel itself. High blow-back from religious groups
6. Be a full partner to the Arab adventures in support of KSA/UAE. Higher dividends. Need to package this for home consumption.

It all boils down to our national priorities. What can we do from the above lists so that we gain the max without letting go of our leverage.

A really good summary with respect to the roads that are present ahead. Point 3 however would have a high blowback from PRC.

 

[Bossman]

Hi,

We have yet to feel the breath of the dragon---.

Have you?

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Con

A really good summary with respect to the roads that are present ahead. Point 3 however would have a high blowback from PRC.

Conceded and you have valid point there. However, one must see who wants what more than the other. Indian are really good at playing this game. We on the other hand think in terms of all or nothing. Gawader or the Central Asian/Western China Land access is a card that can be played against atleast three players, US, China and UAE/KSA (Yes UAE specially, since a vibrant and fully functional Gawader will bring down the value of Jabel Ali....therefore UAE does play a low key role in Baluchistan's instability...believe it or not!)

Keep things simmering and leverage Gawader to maximize funding or support for other linked or Pak priority projects and engage KSA/UAE on projects/adventures of their interests. Share your insurgency experience help them train their forces and house some of your troops there to defend the realm (btw Koreans have almost a brigade stationed in UAE!!!). Let KSA/UAE pay for this and a lot more in return for our cooperation. And leverage this engagement to help tame the world bully, somewhat. This is all doable and digestible at home.

Retch up border security talks with Iran and their role in Baluch insurgency. This is not for US but for our sake's. Take a tough stand on this and other incursions/meddling that they do on and off in our internal affairs. We need to talk tough with them...they have been helping the Indians against us thru Kulbashan incident and Chabahar as a competing port and strategic foothold for IN etc.. These are real issues that we have with Iran but we keep this at the back burner. The pot is simmering and will boil over very soon. Need to be tough on our sovereignty with them. Do remember they support the present Govt. in Afghanistan...which is at logger head with us. This and other such steps to secure Pakistan from the west will have spillover dividends from USA/KSA/UAE. Mind you we will be doing this purely for Pakistan and should have done this earlier. Package it properly even though it is a genuine issue and people of Pakistan will support it.

We are already trying to establish and engage with the Indians to settle the Kashmir and water issue but this time around they are not playing and now demanding our side of Kashmir and lands down to Muree as part of old Princely State of Kashmir!!

As far as Israel is concerned....you will be surprised how we have worked with them, behind the scene, on some matters of national defense.

Generally, posters here take me wrong....I am not a proponent of US but advocating a pragmatic approach to our problems. We as Pakistanis tend to play zero sum games!! There need not be a zero sum game play. We need to think clearly and look towards a long term view of regional politics. What is good for us, in short term, loans that have to be repaid with markup, access to oil through deffer-ed payments, or outright Aid??? Is it good for us to buy armaments on soft loans or get them for free or partially paid for and with better technology???

We have made a hash of utilizing funding from many sources for many years including outright write off of loans, outright cash aid, tied to project aid, direct project funding etc...... Let us not blame others for not doing what we should have been doing in the first place...using these funds for social uplift projects, creating jobs, setting up world class educational institutions and setting up indigenous production of precision engineering equipment. Corruption, greed, nepotism, selfishness was not imported it was home grown..we are to be blamed for it and no other!!!

Set aside, rhetoric, 5th generation warfare and all is being faced by all countries due to social and open media etc. so no big deal there. Big deal is to make sane and balanced decisions based upon our and only our needs and priorities. Countries have ups and downs in their relationship with each other... Korea/Japan, Japan/US, Germany/US, France/US the list goes on. The trick is to weather the storm and make steady headway towards ones goal without sinking ones own boat in the process!!

 

[CriticalThought]

Con


Conceded and you have valid point there. However, one must see who wants what more than the other. Indian are really good at playing this game. We on the other hand think in terms of all or nothing. Gawader or the Central Asian/Western China Land access is a card that can be played against atleast three players, US, China and UAE/KSA (Yes UAE specially, since a vibrant and fully functional Gawader will bring down the value of Jabel Ali....therefore UAE does play a low key role in Baluchistan's instability...believe it or not!)

Keep things simmering and leverage Gawader to maximize funding or support for other linked or Pak priority projects and engage KSA/UAE on projects/adventures of their interests. Share your insurgency experience help them train their forces and house some of your troops there to defend the realm (btw Koreans have almost a brigade stationed in UAE!!!). Let KSA/UAE pay for this and a lot more in return for our cooperation. And leverage this engagement to help tame the world bully, somewhat. This is all doable and digestible at home.

Retch up border security talks with Iran and their role in Baluch insurgency. This is not for US but for our sake's. Take a tough stand on this and other incursions/meddling that they do on and off in our internal affairs. We need to talk tough with them...they have been helping the Indians against us thru Kulbashan incident and Chabahar as a competing port and strategic foothold for IN etc.. These are real issues that we have with Iran but we keep this at the back burner. The pot is simmering and will boil over very soon. Need to be tough on our sovereignty with them. Do remember they support the present Govt. in Afghanistan...which is at logger head with us. This and other such steps to secure Pakistan from the west will have spillover dividends from USA/KSA/UAE. Mind you we will be doing this purely for Pakistan and should have done this earlier. Package it properly even though it is a genuine issue and people of Pakistan will support it.

We are already trying to establish and engage with the Indians to settle the Kashmir and water issue but this time around they are not playing and now demanding our side of Kashmir and lands down to Muree as part of old Princely State of Kashmir!!

As far as Israel is concerned....you will be surprised how we have worked with them, behind the scene, on some matters of national defense.

Generally, posters here take me wrong....I am not a proponent of US but advocating a pragmatic approach to our problems. We as Pakistanis tend to play zero sum games!! There need not be a zero sum game play. We need to think clearly and look towards a long term view of regional politics. What is good for us, in short term, loans that have to be repaid with markup, access to oil through deffer-ed payments, or outright Aid??? Is it good for us to buy armaments on soft loans or get them for free or partially paid for and with better technology???

We have made a hash of utilizing funding from many sources for many years including outright write off of loans, outright cash aid, tied to project aid, direct project funding etc...... Let us not blame others for not doing what we should have been doing in the first place...using these funds for social uplift projects, creating jobs, setting up world class educational institutions and setting up indigenous production of precision engineering equipment. Corruption, greed, nepotism, selfishness was not imported it was home grown..we are to be blamed for it and no other!!!

Set aside, rhetoric, 5th generation warfare and all is being faced by all countries due to social and open media etc. so no big deal there. Big deal is to make sane and balanced decisions based upon our and only our needs and priorities. Countries have ups and downs in their relationship with each other... Korea/Japan, Japan/US, Germany/US, France/US the list goes on. The trick is to weather the storm and make steady headway towards ones goal without sinking ones own boat in the process!!

These are luxuries afforded by nations who have strong institutions. Today, our beureacracy is destroyed. Let me explain the depth of the rot. Nations today are continuously coming up with governance frameworks through shared consensus. If implemented, they lead to closer cooperation. The implementation of these frameworks defines a nation's standing in the 'comity of nations'. One small example is the smart cities initiative. A few years back a seminar was held by Sydney government because they are working towards this aim. In this seminar, they listed other nations part of this initiative. Guess what? India was amongst a handful of nations involved.

Similarly, there are now legal frameworks. Then there is legislation by important world powers that controls their actions. Navigating all this requires intellectual, educated people serving the nation through careers that span a lifetime.

Today political meddling has set us back by decades. And you want to project a strong foreign policy? If you are going to beg for money to pay next month's bill, you cannot have a strong foreign policy.

You talk about strong arming Iran. You are already at risk from two sides. You have absolutely zero propensity for tough talk with Iran. More than that, you NEED Iran just like you really needed ISIS. As long as America is involved in these issues, it is not concentrating on you. Mark my words: after Iran it will be Pakistan and our nukes. Iran has the luxury that it can sell us out if it wants. We need Iran until such time that we can claim Afghanistan as our own peaceful, prosperous, brotherly backyard.

It is easy to think big, but in the real world it requires decades of dedicated effort to act big.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

These are luxuries afforded by nations who have strong institutions. Today, our beureacracy is destroyed. Let me explain the depth of the rot. Nations today are continuously coming up with governance frameworks through shared consensus. If implemented, they lead to closer cooperation. The implementation of these frameworks defines a nation's standing in the 'comity of nations'. One small example is the smart cities initiative. A few years back a seminar was held by Sydney government because they are working towards this aim. In this seminar, they listed other nations part of this initiative. Guess what? India was amongst a handful of nations involved.

Similarly, there are now legal frameworks. Then there is legislation by important world powers that controls their actions. Navigating all this requires intellectual, educated people serving the nation through careers that span a lifetime.

Today political meddling has set us back by decades. And you want to project a strong foreign policy? If you are going to beg for money to pay next month's bill, you cannot have a strong foreign policy.

You talk about strong arming Iran. You are already at risk from two sides. You have absolutely zero propensity for tough talk with Iran. More than that, you NEED Iran just like you really needed ISIS. As long as America is involved in these issues, it is not concentrating on you. Mark my words: after Iran it will be Pakistan and our nukes. Iran has the luxury that it can sell us out if it wants. We need Iran until such time that we can claim Afghanistan as our own peaceful, prosperous, brotherly backyard.

It is easy to think big, but in the real world it requires decades of dedicated effort to act big.

Yes agreed to most of your points.

Btw Iran already landed us in hot soup on the nuclear issue when they fingered Pakistan as the source of P1 centrifuge drawings...and India came out on top because of that saga, a more mature and sober Nuclear entity as compared to the two. What India could not do for so many years, Iran did it for them and that too, very effectively.

We need ISIS and Iran to deflect the blows from US. I see serious flaws here in this approach. Instead of keeping quiet on things that directly effects us a nation and hurts us, we should be gauging who we can have converging interests with and then act upon that and become part of comity of nations or group of nations that matter to us in the region.

Decades of neglect does not mean that we can not start now or never should. Dair aye durst aye....maybe that will help here.

As far as think big.... I am just suggesting a possible course of action and nothing more. Just trying to bring some saner voice to the jingoistic narrative and chest thumping that usually goes on this forum without much thought or gauge of magnitude of the issue at hand.