these r my thoughts too.....in fact the thoughts that represent entity of Pakistan!unlike yr novice and tunnel vision thoughts.
Now address them! Shabash!
and dont give me another tunnel vision.
OK Mr Genius strategic studies student who relies on other people's ideas and calls the Ex ACM Saeen baba and claims that he who has the affairs of the PAF in front of him knows nothing!! Let me indulge you for one post only. I shall quote the posts 99 and 101 and respond to them. By the way from your attitude and mental maturity which you have exhibited in your post, I am old enough to be your Father and it would not go amiss for you to remember that when you address me next
We did pretty well for the past 18 years to defend our homeland against a 5th gen warfare imposed by the US. We had to bleed and sacrifice, but we stood up and looked the enemies straight in the eyes. The US also made use of NATO forces and rougue Indian intelligence apparatus to seek cover. The Americans used every ploy in the book to harm and attack Pakistan. It didn't go well for them. They used brazen Salala like attacks and they also used ethnic and religious faultlines to create chaos. I shouldn't be reiterating any of this because you already know this more than any of us.
No one in their right mind would want a confrontation with US. No one is seeking a confrontation. Ordinary Pakistanis are simply sick and tired of a backstabbing and deceitful relationship with the US. The US is like a bloodsucking leech unwilling to let Pakistan go. The vast majority of Pakistanis want bare minimum relations with the US. The current relationship is just fine where Pakistan is not a client state seeking economic and military aid in exchange for extremely harmful favors. The people want an honest and a cordial relationship with China and the neighborhood. That doesn't equal to confrontation and hostility with the USA.
This exercise means zilch to the broken relationship between Pakistan and the US. The US is clearly recognizing how it has lost the war in Afghanistan. In the process it has utterly destroyed the relationship with Pakistan. To put in perspective, 18 years of bloodshed and carnage to be precise. This amount of destruction and misery cannot be merely fixed with an exercise between PAF and USAF.
By all means go ahead with the exercise, but don't expect relations to be normal. The relationship is broken and dysfunctional on many levels. Pakistan needs to remain neutral at best.
You don't shake hands with someone who tried to rob and kill you. Even if the killer is bigger, stronger and intimidating. As a little guy you keep distance.
The post is reflective of confusion and simple misquoting of facts for the following reason:
The last 18 years mean a period from 2000-2018. There really are 2 different eras in the context of the Afghan war and equating and amalgamating one with the other is falacious. Allow me to elaborate:
I. The first era is 2000 to 20008 when Musharraf ruled the roost. I think it is generally accepted that he gave in too easily and too quickly. A few of the tales coming out from the Corps commander confferences and quoted in the press suggest that giving over of bases to the US was extracted from him. Again he need not have done so. A better deal could have been negotiated. However this is all with hindsight and therefore difficult to comment on. When Pakistan became a part of the WOT and proudly proclaimed how many Afghans its forces had handed over to the terrorists for money it became a Logical and "legitimate" target for the Afghan resistance and its lackiesTTP" who started attacking Targets in Pakistan. The US complied with its part of the deal and paid you your dues. You wanted more and they politely refused saying you have made a bargain. So you were now stuck.
One of the things which is an outcome of wars is production of a generation of people who rely on the gains of war. It seems that it is these people who became the source of much of the ills that prevailed in Pakistan. The Taliban were quick to ostracize them but the behemoth had been created and it was the result of the war rather than the US. IT NEEDS TO BE UNDERSTOOD that a large number if not all of these miscreants were Pakistanis who were just thugs for hire. This is where the RAW came in.
The US interest remained Afghanistan and not Pakistan. So to blame them for your ills is not only illconceived but downright dishonest. What is fact is that US looked after its own interest but we did not.
2. The second phase came 2008 onwards with the realization that the US will not clean our backyard for us. It had its hands full in Afghanistan and wanted to outsource the menial work to anyone who cared to take it on. The Indians took it on for their own nefarious purposes but again utilized Proxies in Pakistan OF PAKISTANI origin. When the realization dawned on the PA It started various operations to clean up its backyardand mined and fenced the border which has brought back relative calm and peace back.
So Umair my assumption is that PA and its leadership in 2000s was very much responsible for what happened to Pakistan subsequently. The US never agreed to clear your backyard for you. If you did not set the rules of the game correctly at the right time and the right price dont blame annyone else for your own lack of hindsight. For instance the mining nad fencing of the border in early 2000s could have negated this whole notion that Pak proxies were involved in attacks on US/allied forces. Again this was done to serve US interests and who would blame them.
The poster again suggest that no one wants to take the US head on. But asserts that the exercise would do Zilch to our broken relationship. However at no place does he say he does not want the exercise to go ahead. In effect he questions the utility of exercise in mending your relations with the US.
Let us expand this further. The exercise in question is a military to military contact and an opportunity to learn from each other. So what value do we place on learning? I think it is good that we learn from each other. Also a direct refusal is rude and would be taken as a snub by the military. US decisions in this theatre are taken on the advice of Pentagon and you want to snub the only hand stretched out towards you, as Donald is clearly not looking:at Paklands with a favourable eye. So how do you see this improving relations?
The otber fact which all Pakistanis fail to understand is international relations are built up on mutual interests. Currently your and the Us interests especially with regards to China are on a collision course and you have rightly indicated that this is not negotiable for you. So if they look after their interest by going to India how is this wrong. The only solution for you is to maintain your relations with the US in light of their need of your help in Afghanistan and you are helping them because it is as much in your interest as in theirs and Afghanistan. The rest ofthe post is based on jingoism which anyone would disregard.
Post 101.
The US can be confronted, depending how much appetite you have for destruction. It is not just our armed forces that are not indoctrinated, prepared, and equipped. We are unprepared as a nation. The armed forces are constituted from the underlying population. There is no magic stick which will take 600000 personnel from an uneducated, poor population, and turn them into modern soldiers of the 21st century.
What I am against is an increasing cronyism between our forces and theirs. At times, this has benefited us greatly, such as the F-16 requested by Gen Zia, or the charisma of Ayub and the resultant concessions. But Ayub experienced the disloyalty in 65, and Zia was eliminated. These two examples should be eye openers. Yet, when I see irreligious, secular minded officers on top spots who are enamored with the West and look up to them as ideals, I fear we have lost without fighting a single battle. I shudder to think of the extent to which America controls the Pakistani Armed Forces. If I let my thought process loose, I even question the public spats we have had. Is it possible that Musharraf clued them about Osama Bin Laden? I clearly remember his address after the Lal Masjid debacle. His words: "And you won't believe the personality that we have found in there". Someone was found in Lal Masjid and transferred to an unknown location, and the matter was never discussed after that. Who was this 'personality'? Even I myself label these thoughts as conspiracy theories, but they make me uncomfortable.
Let me summarize the crux of the entire situation: for a nation that is so intellectually bankrupt and incompetent that it can not solve any of its own national problems, yes, our armed forces need to train with the best, even if the best are our sworn enemies. Without vision, foresight, innovation, rigor, scientific and technical expertise, and a sound financial backing, we cannot assert our own independence. We are mental slaves, and many amongst us are happy to be so. So yes, continue on. But please don't let the Americans assess any of the Chinese technologies.
The first paragraph of this post is regarding taking USA Head on. Well let me tell you you have as much chance of success as a mouse against an elephant(tales aside). You lack political, military, economical and national cohesive power to take US on so forget it. Now that does not mean and has never meant that you cannot disagree with the US policy. International norms give you that right and within reason you can and have already done so. It is good and will probably show you as maturing politically which means you will be able to negotiate from a strategically better position with the US.
The poster goes on to lament how increasing cronyism between forces has been bad for us. Where it has been bad has been because our leaders political and military have chosen their own pockets in favour of national interest. You cannot blame the US for it. It is simply lack of political insight and choosing the easy way out which has become ingrained oin Pakistani psyche, rather than the hard slog which has led us here today. Once again this is Our fault not the US. In military to military relations there are aspects of training and mutual learning. As long as you concentrate on that you are fine. The moment you try and turn this into political/ monetary favours you are owned. When you are owned you are used for the purpose for which you were bought not for national gains by the party buying you.. So lamenting the cronyism because of sticky fingers of your polity and brass is a rather lop sided opinion. If one acts like a hooker you dont lament a sore *** afterwards.
The poster's summary is however spot on and conforms to what I have been saying. When personal gain has preceeded national interests and you have plenty of examples of that in Pak history that is moral bankruptcy and the national suffering as a consequence of these decisions is OUR Faulat and ours alone.
There you go Mr strategic studies student . Now if you have anything further to add to the dabate then please be bothered to pen your thoughts and I shall respond.
A
