Pakistan to acquire six submarines from China

[azfar]

^ then how does slbm and guided torpedo get guidance?

 

[ares]

Ballistic missile are not guided by radar ..they follow a parabolic path to hit a fixed target on land(use Inertial navigation system or GPS for navgation.)

Torpedoes are either wire guided from the submarine itself or are wake homing(zeros on the other ships wake) or are have active or passive SONARs fitted into there nose cones.

Submarine relies on active and passive SONAR underwater navigation and detection of targets.

Radars are stowed in while operating underwater and radar antena in only raised ..when the sub is surfaced.

 

[Indus Falcon]

While what you are saying is right, this cannot ever happen as the MTCR does not permit missiles wit a range of more than 300 kms to be exported.

While you were busy giving me a lesson on my "Wishful Thinking", this is what happened in reality.

1) The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) was established in April 1987 by Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Great Britain, and the United States.

Neither China nor Saudi Arabia were part of this deal.

In the same year, 1987, China developed a conventional HE warhead version of the DF-3 for sale to Saudi Arabia. Therefore this deal was completely legal.

2) China agreed to adhere to the provisions of the original draft of the MTCR in 1991. In 2004 China applied to join the MTCR, but members did not offer China membership because of concerns about China's export control standards.

As of 2010 China has officially applied for membership of the MTCR and has agreed to abide by its clauses.

3) The other issue concerning the Black Shahine derivative of MBDA’s Storm Shadow stealth cruise missile. The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) defines 300 km as the current limit for cruise missiles, and the terms of the sale allow the United States to regulate which weapons the F-16s can carry.

Since the Black Shahine was deemed to have a range of over 300km, the US State Department refused to let Lockheed Martin change the data bus to permit the F-16E/Fs to carry the missile.

The MTCR does not apply to Aircraft. Its full form is Missile Technology Control Regime. It doesn't matter if they upgrade UAE F-16's to Block 1000.

Maybe you should read up on things before you put them up for scrutiny on a public forum. In civil society, we do take the word of law as practical and not theoretical. Still, any deals under the table are always a possibility, which is closer to "wishful thinking".

Appreciate your feedback, if any.

Missile Technology Control Regime
Missile Technology Control Regime
China and Multilateral Export Control Mechanisms
The UAE’s F-16 Block 60 Desert Falcon Fleet

You mentioned about MTCR (post #176), but by your own admission in Post#202 neither Pakistan nor China is a member of MTCR. The only thing that you could put forward was that China tries to practice self restraint / compliance with MTCR, which by no means, means that it is obligated to do so! Maybe you should not contradict yourself and look like a FOOL on a public forum!!

1) The point about the Black Shaheen and the F16 was - REPERCUSSIONS. Of which there were NONE.

What this tells us is that being a typical Indian you are doing the only thing you can do: trolling!!

MODS: Please delete and issue infractions for trolls derailing this thread. Thank You!!

 

[SBD-3]

You assume alot China can neutralize Space Recon ability on the Indian Side when India is also working on BMD technology

But China has already tested this a year or two ago so their tech is active now. By the way I was questioning your assumptions that considering India in context rather than US (what you pasted) how do you think that Indian carrier have the same fair chance as the US carrier

 

[Penguin]

Can we gt back to topics, please. (Don't think present discussion has anything to do with acquisition of 6 Yuan SSK....)

 

[Penguin]

^ then how does slbm and guided torpedo get guidance?

Some lower frequency active sonars are powerful enough in output, and sensitive enough in receiving, that they could detect a submarine at the point where the refracted sound waves are back near the surface. This phenomenon is called the 'convergence zone' in part because acoustic paths that have spread somewhat have converged back together.

The radius of the convergence zone depends on the water depth and temperature (and salinity plus more) - it gets closer in cold water and farther away in warm water. The usual quoted maximum practical convergence zone range is about 30 nautical miles! Or it might be as little as 15 miles in the Arctic Ocean. The width of the zone where such detection is possible is normally about 10 % of the radius of this zone.

Some tactical towed arrays are reported as having a detection range of 3 convergence zones

ASDIC, Radar and IFF Systems Aboard HMCS HAIDA - Part 5 of 12

Perhaps sonar detection by a sub should not be underestimated ?
3x30 nmi = 90 nmi [nautical mile, international] = 166.68 kilometer

See also Estimates of submarine detection ranges - Appendix 2 - The Future of Russia's Strategic Nuclear Forces - E.V. Miasnikov (Estimates of submarine detection ranges )

 

[Indus Falcon]

This is a pretty strange recent analysis.

Hans are old news and at least 5 confirmed. At least 2 Shang class were confirmed with more unconfirmed. 095 is also comng in just a few years.

At least 7 Yuan confirmed as well.

For something so recent it sure has a lot of inaccuracies.

Xiōngdì, (did I say that correctly?) you are absolutely right!

The reason I posted this article was not to highlight the number of systems in operation, but to highlight the impressive technical advancement of the Chinese. Hope this clears up any misunderstandings.

 

[Penguin]

Can we gt back to topics, please. (Don't think present discussion has anything to do with acquisition of 6 Yuan SSK....)

 

[alimobin memon]

according to this we will eventually go for 9 subs and atleast 6 will be yuan class
Pakistan Military Review: Federal Cabinet Approve Joint Development of New Gen AIP Submarines with China

 

[fatman17]

ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2011


Defence Weekly

Pakistan to start formal talks with China to buy submarines

Farhan Bokhari Correspondent - Islamabad


Pakistan's cabinet on 14 March approved a Ministry of Defence request to open formal negotiations with China for the purchase of six new submarines.

"Beijing has offered to sell submarines to Islamabad," said Minister of Information Firdous Ashiq Awan, although she refused to give details of the exact type of boats under discussion. A successful programme would allow the Pakistan Navy to reduce a growing capability gap with India in the northern Arabian and the Indian Ocean region, its main area of operation.

In an interview with published on 17 February 2011, Admiral Noman Bashir, chief of Pakistan's naval staff, said the navy's most pressing requirement was the replacement of two French-supplied Agosta 70 submarines that have been in service since the 1970s.

While describing the Pakistan Navy's submarine fleet as the "backbone of our navy", Adm Bashir admitted that "over a period of time, our submarine strength has dwindled and today we have five submarines, which is far short of our requirement". The five submarines include three Agosta 90Bs (Khalid class), purchased from France in the 1990s.

The Pakistan Navy tried to purchase three German-built Type 214 submarines in 2009 but the plan was put on hold due to cost issues. A Western defence official said three Type 214 boats specific to Pakistan's requirements could cost more than USD2 billion.

A NATO defence official based in Islamabad said Pakistan appeared to have settled for inferior technology to that on offer from a European source, but that the country's defence planners probably believed China would soon catch up with Western manufacturers.

Pakistan has additional incentives to sign a deal with China, which is a close military ally and has jointly manufactured fighter aircraft, frigates and main battle tanks.

"China's deep commitment to Pakistan probably means that the Chinese financial terms will be far more affordable for Pakistan. Rather than delay a new submarine order for cost reasons, this is probably the best way out for Pakistan," the NATO official said.

The Pakistan Navy operates five submarines, including three Khalid-class (Agosta 90Bs), built in France. (Pakistan Navy)

 

[fatman17]

"There has been some articles like this this week about Pakistan acquiring Chinese conventional submarines. I don't think it's official, but such talks have been going on for the past couple of years. I think that if it does happen, it will be for the Yuan class submarines that are currently under mass production. They won't be as quiet as the Western options, but they do satisfy the AIP requirement. At the same time, they have much improved combat system and sonars compared to previous Chinese submarines."

 

[Mani2020]

"There has been some articles like this this week about Pakistan acquiring Chinese conventional submarines. I don't think it's official, but such talks have been going on for the past couple of years. I think that if it does happen, it will be for the Yuan class submarines that are currently under mass production. They won't be as quiet as the Western options, but they do satisfy the AIP requirement. At the same time, they have much improved combat system and sonars compared to previous Chinese submarines."

thats what i m concerned about ,Chinese technology specially the submarines are far inferior than the western one i think PN would have concentrated more on quality than quantity but anyways just cross your fingers and lets see what Yuan class holds but no doubt whatever it holds its still going to be inferior than U boats

 

[Rafi]

Don't believe everything you read, the Chinese boats that are coming out now, are as good as western tech.

 

[araz]

Don't believe everything you read, the Chinese boats that are coming out now, are as good as western tech.

Rafi Saheb
Do you want to elaborate a bit more. I personally dont know much about subs and especially chinese ones.
Araz

 

[Rafi]

Rafi Saheb
Do you want to elaborate a bit more. I personally dont know much about subs and especially chinese ones.
Araz

With pleasure Araz bro, the Chinese are catching up in every facet of defense technology, the latest subs, with their AIP propulsion and sensor's are on par with, and in some cases surpassing western technology. With countries like Pakistan which previously had many western weapons - that recognition of the improvement will become more well known.