Pakistan to acquire six submarines from China

[Yeti]

Without quoting it is regarded as plagiarism.

I agree it is hyped for the US navy. Any other navy would be an easy target though.

depends on the counter measures in place by the navy

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Uhn, how would you know who was who on the internet at different fora anyway?

Sorry for having a good memory

 

[tanlixiang28776]

depends on the counter measures in place by the navy

land based anti conventional ballistic missile interceptions with ideal situations is difficult for most countries. Sea based ones against a maneuvering warheads is on another level.

 

[Yeti]

land based anti conventional ballistic missile interceptions with ideal situations is difficult for most countries. Sea based ones against a maneuvering warheads is on another level.

Like the Aegis BMD sea based system, there is talk of India buying this system alongside the Barak-2 which will equip the three guided missile destroyers of the Project 15A class.

 

[Donatello]

Like the Aegis BMD sea based system, there is talk of India buying this system alongside the Barak-2 which will equip the three guided missile destroyers of the Project 15A class.

Hi,


Are you blind?

Do me a favor and read the thread title again, and tell me if it asks about your Indian input?






MODs,

Why are such people not stopped from derailing the thread? Almost every thread is being derailed.

 

[raveolution]

In a theoretical / perfect world, you would have been right.

Secondly, what you have mentioned is a view held by many Indians - it's called wishful thinking

Before you and your fellow country men start trolling, I'll close this MTCR nonsense once and for all:

1) Despite a clear violation of the MTCR i.e. Black Shaheen, the US sold F16 Blk 60 + ammo to the UAE. Further to that they are upgrading the desert falcons to Blk 70 as well.

2) The Saudi's bought CSS2 from China - clear violation of MTCR.

Do yo see anyone loosing sleep over the above?


SO please don't spoil a thread by coming up with such lame comments. Thank You!!

While you were busy giving me a lesson on my "Wishful Thinking", this is what happened in reality.

1) The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) was established in April 1987 by Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Great Britain, and the United States.

Neither China nor Saudi Arabia were part of this deal.

In the same year, 1987, China developed a conventional HE warhead version of the DF-3 for sale to Saudi Arabia. Therefore this deal was completely legal.

2) China agreed to adhere to the provisions of the original draft of the MTCR in 1991. In 2004 China applied to join the MTCR, but members did not offer China membership because of concerns about China's export control standards.

As of 2010 China has officially applied for membership of the MTCR and has agreed to abide by its clauses.

3) The other issue concerning the Black Shahine derivative of MBDA’s Storm Shadow stealth cruise missile. The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) defines 300 km as the current limit for cruise missiles, and the terms of the sale allow the United States to regulate which weapons the F-16s can carry.

Since the Black Shahine was deemed to have a range of over 300km, the US State Department refused to let Lockheed Martin change the data bus to permit the F-16E/Fs to carry the missile.

The MTCR does not apply to Aircraft. Its full form is Missile Technology Control Regime. It doesn't matter if they upgrade UAE F-16's to Block 1000.

Maybe you should read up on things before you put them up for scrutiny on a public forum. In civil society, we do take the word of law as practical and not theoretical. Still, any deals under the table are always a possibility, which is closer to "wishful thinking".

Appreciate your feedback, if any.

Missile Technology Control Regime
Missile Technology Control Regime
China and Multilateral Export Control Mechanisms
The UAE’s F-16 Block 60 Desert Falcon Fleet

 

[Yeti]

Hi,


Are you blind?

Do me a favor and read the thread title again, and tell me if it asks about your Indian input?






MODs,

Why are such people not stopped from derailing the thread? Almost every thread is being derailed.

You are free to continue discussing your future sub purchase i was talking only in regards to the hype of anti-ship missiles mentioned by some members

 

[Kompromat]

Guys , this isn't an Indian navy thread , how many times i would have to remind people ?

 

[monitor]

from pshamim
Breaking News
Pakdef exclusive

Pakistan ‘s official stance has not been to enter into an arms race with India but it is determined to not only maintain a favorable strategic parity but also maintain superiority in selected area like underwater warfare.

Latest news is that PN has been negotiating with CSTC in China to acquire up to 6 Yuan cklass diesel-electric submarines
With fuel cell based AIP systems. Each double hulled SSK is expected to cost about $230 Million.

Another intriguing news is of a possible 10 years lease of a 5500 Tons 091 HAN class nuclear submarine (SSGN) Along with these submarine, Pakistan is also expected to buy 4 Jiankai 054 class FFGs. I had reported the news couple of years ago. Now it seems that the negotiation are at a final stage

Deal was discussed in length last year with Chinese Vice President when he visited Pakistan last year.
Deals are in advanced stage with Zardari being very enthusiastic. Hopefully we may hear more in near future.

Type-091 have been retrofitted and modernized. Either Changzheng 3 (403) or Changzheng-4 (404) is expected to end up in Pakistan for 10 years.


The details are not classified and many countries are already in the knowledge. I have been assured of that and cleared to break the news. More non-classified informations will be posted on the subject soon

 

[SBD-3]

The first point to make is that (unless it is using a nuclear warhead) it is going to need terminal guidance to fine tune the warhead’s trajectory as it reenters the Eearth’s atmosphere. This is true regardless of how well China needs the position of the target carrier—the only target worthwhile shooting at. Consider the scenario China’s military must assume: as soon as a DF-21D is launched (and hence detected by US early warning satellites) every carrier anywhere near the missile takes off at maximum speed in some random direction. If the DF-21D is launched at maximum range (again something China’s military planners would need to assume), each ship could be some 13 km away from where it was a the time of launch. The DF-21D would have to correct for that change sometime during its flight. The most logical place to correct for those changes are sometime after the end of the boost phase since the target carriers—the only targets worth shooting at—can zig and zag at anytime.

Okey but under this assumption, there are two arguments, 1) None of the country has used its Anti Space Weaponary 2) The DF-21 is launched from a very large distance or Maximum range. But applying these assumption will not hold significantly in case of India as 1) China can neutralize Space Recon ability on the Indian Side 2) The probable distance between Indian Carrier in Indian Ocean will be much lesser from a US Carrier in say Atlantic or Pacific.

 

[IceCold]

Another intriguing news is of a possible 10 years lease of a 5500 Tons 091 HAN class nuclear submarine (SSGN) Along with these submarine, Pakistan is also expected to buy 4 Jiankai 054 class FFGs. I had reported the news couple of years ago. Now it seems that the negotiation are at a final stage

Ohh nice. Now we are talking.

 

[SBD-3]

well we need sub which can destroy air targets when it is beneath the sea and also capable to destory any enemy ship and be able to be stealthy as well and hard to detect for enemy

and this comes from a "premium member", well to let you know, though there were experiments on IRIST being lanuched from German sub. However, this missile is only short ranged and can be only use with little effect as "last resort". its not the job of a Sub to hunt the "Hunters (Orion,Posiedon)" but to avoid them. As i posted before, a sub is best when it is sitting underwater blind from what is above because at that time what is above does also not know that there is something below. Making any such attempt will easily jeoperdize the position and thus conventional sealth (ability to stay undetected) of firing sub and other party can easily concentrate its ASW asset on highlighted area, increasing the threat instead of decreasing it.I agree on the second point but to clear things up , "stealthy" in Sub language is not what we presume in Aircraft language, it means making lesser noise, there are two types of noises, external noise created by outter body i,e, propeller and second one is the internal noise created by operation of internal equipment and AFAIK, internal noise is a significant part of overall profile. Yuan C is thought to be purposefully built with silence in mind. So if PN goes Yuan C then its not a bad choice at all as Yuan (A,B) on general is approximately 8 times quiter than song class

 

[Yeti]

Okey but under this assumption, there are two arguments, 1) None of the country has used its Anti Space Weaponary 2) The DF-21 is launched from a very large distance or Maximum range. But applying these assumption will not hold significantly in case of India as 1) China can neutralize Space Recon ability on the Indian Side 2) The probable distance between Indian Carrier in Indian Ocean will be much lesser from a US Carrier in say Atlantic or Pacific.

You assume alot China can neutralize Space Recon ability on the Indian Side when India is also working on BMD technology

 

[azfar]

and this comes from a "premium member", well to let you know, though there were experiments on IRIST being lanuched from German sub. However, this missile is only short ranged and can be only use with little effect as "last resort". its not the job of a Sub to hunt the "Hunters (Orion,Posiedon)" but to avoid them. As i posted before, a sub is best when it is sitting underwater blind from what is above because at that time what is above does also not know that there is something below. Making any such attempt will easily jeoperdize the position and thus conventional sealth (ability to stay undetected) of firing sub and other party can easily concentrate its ASW asset on highlighted area, increasing the threat instead of decreasing it.I agree on the second point but to clear things up , "stealthy" in Sub language is not what we presume in Aircraft language, it means making lesser noise, there are two types of noises, external noise created by outter body i,e, propeller and second one is the internal noise created by operation of internal equipment and AFAIK, internal noise is a significant part of overall profile. Yuan C is thought to be purposefully built with silence in mind. So if PN goes Yuan C then its not a bad choice at all as Yuan (A,B) on general is approximately 8 times quiter than song class

how is radar range/performance affected under water considering a sub cant have conventional large antina radar?

 

[ares]

how is radar range/performance affected under water considering a sub cant have conventional large antina radar?

Radar does not work underwater!!