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Pakistan’s China Syndrome

Fact, = Blog is about Pakistan and China

Friends = Pakistan & China

This thread = hijacked by Hindu-stanis

Comments from Indians = Hindu-stani A-hole on fire.

Thus proven, hindu-stan poeple have volatile & ballistic A holes which gets ignited at the least insecurity.
 
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What i cant understand that how come some people compare Pak-China relations with US ones ?
There is a huge difference between the two !!!
China isn't a fair weather friend like the US
China never deserted Pakistan unlike USA which did after its aims were fulfilled in Afghanistan ( 1980's ) and now they are starting the blame game
China never imposed sanctions on Pakistan instead provided intense help in hours of need unlike US which provided aid that too for the fulfillment of their own interests China helped Pakistan develop nuclear weapons , provided its most latest military hardware ( JFT , J 10 , Al Khalid , K8 Trainers , AWACS , F22p's , FAC's and now submarines and who knows what is being kept secret ??? ) but the US provided military assistance only when it was required to accomplish their mission like F 16's in 80's to protect from Soviets threatening us and now with a thousands strings attached hell it seems that we cant even fly it if they dont allow us ( only a guess )
China has invested billions in Pakistan ( Gwadar , Baluchistan , Infrastructure development in Sindh and not to forget providing nuclear reactors to help in our growing energy needs ... Was the same ever done by US ? US offered civil nuclear tech to India but not to the major non NATO ally which is the frontline state in WoT !

So people stop this madness !!! US has a tendency to create its own friends and foes ! Look at the example of Saddam Hussein and OBL who once were the best ally's because they matched well with US interests ... The same will happen with Pakistan ( like in the 80's ) but China will remain the true friend of Pakistan ... One which knows well how to treat a ally !
 
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Nobody is doubting Pakistan's friendship with China but the point the article was trying to make is psyching itself into believing there will be some kind of a war between it and US in which China would come to its help may not reflect the positions China has taken in the past.

I wish you good luck in the war you envisage

 
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What i cant understand that how come some people compare Pak-China relations with US ones ?
There is a huge difference between the two !!!
China isn't a fair weather friend like the US
China never deserted Pakistan unlike USA which did after its aims were fulfilled in Afghanistan ( 1980's ) and now they are starting the blame game
China never imposed sanctions on Pakistan instead provided intense help in hours of need unlike US which provided aid that too for the fulfillment of their own interests China helped Pakistan develop nuclear weapons , provided its most latest military hardware ( JFT , J 10 , Al Khalid , K8 Trainers , AWACS , F22p's , FAC's and now submarines and who knows what is being kept secret ??? ) but the US provided military assistance only when it was required to accomplish their mission like F 16's in 80's to protect from Soviets threatening us and now with a thousands strings attached hell it seems that we cant even fly it if they dont allow us ( only a guess )
China has invested billions in Pakistan ( Gwadar , Baluchistan , Infrastructure development in Sindh and not to forget providing nuclear reactors to help in our growing energy needs ... Was the same ever done by US ? US offered civil nuclear tech to India but not to the major non NATO ally which is the frontline state in WoT !

So people stop this madness !!! US has a tendency to create its own friends and foes ! Look at the example of Saddam Hussein and OBL who once were the best ally's because they matched well with US interests ... The same will happen with Pakistan ( like in the 80's ) but China will remain the true friend of Pakistan ... One which knows well how to treat a ally !

I agree with your entire assessment but where I disagree is that its not an emotional friendship. States don't have such fantasies - they work on the basis of what's in their national interest. All I'm saying is if/when something done by Pakistan irks the Chinese too much, their relations will take a dive. And to expect that China would take on the superpower of the world with whom it does $1 - $1.5 billion trade a day to save Pakistan sounds ludicrous.

But who knows Chinese themselves may be looking for strategic depth in Pakistan. :P

And hey, like Pakistan's vision of having a strategic depth in Afghanistan has backfired into Jihadis obtaining a strategic depth in Pakistan, I'd wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan attains strategic depth in China. :P
 
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Bl[i]tZ;2143172 said:
At the height of Pakistan’s crisis in relations with the United States, Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani reminded his Chinese guest of the words he had used to describe its relationship with China. ”Pak-China friendship is higher than mountains, deeper than oceans, stronger than steel and sweeter than honey.” In a press release issued by the prime minister’s office during a visit to Islamabad by Chinese Public Security Minister Meng Jianzhu, Gilani also promised China that “‘your friends are our friends, your enemies are our enemies and your security is our security.”

It was language designed to show that even after Admiral Mike Mullen’s assertion that the Afghan militant Haqqani network was effectively a proxy of the Pakistan army, China – Pakistan’s “all weather friend” – stood at its side. The Pakistan media enthusiastically played up Meng’s visit, jumping on a relatively small offer of financial help and a dreamed-of defence pact with China to build up hopes of Chinese support.

Faced with such hyperbole, I flipped across to the website of the People’s Daily to see what it had to say about Pakistan. At the time I looked, there was no mention of Pakistan. It did however give prominence to a story about China and India holding a strategic dialogue to build economic ties.

The comparison is instructive in so many ways.

First of all Pakistan is not the centre of the world even though those of us who cover it tend to think it is. And China is a big country, setting itself on a trajectory to outstrip the United States. It pays far less attention to India than India does to China, let alone becoming as obsessed with Pakistan’s problems as Pakistan is with casting China in the role of saviour.

Secondly, Pakistan has consistently over-estimated the support it is likely to get from China for decades. As far back as its 1965 war with India – launched in a failed bid to wrest control of Kashmir – it misjudged China’s willingness to intervene on its behalf. At the time, Pakistan-China relations were riding high. China had just inflicted a humiliating defeat on India in a 1962 border war. :cry: Pakistan had then – in Indian eyes – added insult to injury by reaching a provisional border agreement with China and agreeing to build the strategic Karakoram Highway to link it properly to India’s enemy. Yet during the 1965 war, Pakistan’s expectations of Chinese help were proved disastrously wrong.

At the time of the 1971 war with India – a crisis bigger than the one faced by Pakistan today – China gave no military support when Pakistan was split in two with Indian backing to carve out the new country of Bangladesh. The United States gave little real help, either, beyond deploying the 7th Fleet to the Bay of Bengal - something that is bitterly remembered by Pakistan – but somehow China’s own record was forgotten.

Indeed history is so stacked up in favour of the argument that Pakistan has consistently over-estimated its likely support from China that it is hard to believe the Pakistan government does not know this already. If it had any doubts it would have cleared these up when the government first sought Chinese financial help in 2008 only to be rebuffed and sent packing to the IMF - a decision which left Pakistan more vulnerable to U.S. influence.

And even without the historical evidence, it would be clear that China’s concerns about Pakistan-based Islamist militants focused on its own Xinjiang province would mean that Beijing would be unlikely to come out all guns blazing in defence of Pakistan’s right to tolerate or support groups like the Haqqani network. China is also steadily building economic relations with India – which if anything is even more sensitive than the United States to any hint of tolerance for militant groups by Pakistan or its allies.

In other words, it is reasonable to assume the Pakistan government knows full well that there are limits to Chinese support in its confrontation with the United States. And that by extension its “higher than mountains, deeper than oceans” talk is designed for a domestic audience.

And this is where it gets even more interesting. What does the government’s public language about China tell us about Pakistan and particularly its civilian-military relations?

Step back for a moment and consider that Mullen’s comments have created a huge nationalistic backlash in Pakistan. Whether by design or default, the biggest beneficiary of this backlash is the Pakistan army as the one institution which can defend the country against any American military attack. (Watch this “war video” clip from Pakistan television celebrating the prowess of Pakistan’s armed forces to see how the American threats are being played domestically.)

The civilian government has never been able to wrest control over foreign and security policy from the Pakistan army. It had an opportunity after the raid by U.S. forces who found and killed Osama bin Laden on May 2 – a raid which deeply embarrassed the Pakistan army – but did not do so.

With the latest crisis in U.S.-Pakistan relations, English-language newspapers have suggested that the civilian government again seize the opportunity to assert its authority – taking advantage of a multi-party conference called by Prime Minister Gilani for Sept. 29 to discuss the situation.

”If the events of May 2 did not result in attempts to increase civilian oversight, surely elected representatives should seize Pakistan’ s current embarrassment — and the economic and security risk it presents — as an opportunity to try to correct the balance of power,” Dawn newspaper wrote in an editorial.

The Express Tribune suggested the civilian government was trying to find ”a more sensible and pragmatic approach” than the military, showing the existence of ”two centres of power at work in the country”. While the Pakistan army stands accused by the Americans of running the Haqqani network as a proxy – an allegation it denies – “when the all-party conference is held, hopefully the participants will realise that it is not in Pakistan’s interest to allow terrorists safe havens on its soil or allow such elements to launch attacks on other countries from inside Pakistan,” it said.

So what would a civilian government seeking to assert its influence over foreign policy and adopt a more pragmatic approach do?

1) Encourage the hawks, the populists and jingoists, and the anti-American right by insisting that Pakistan has a superpower ally of its own which will defend it down to the deepest ocean and up to the highest mountain? 2) Avoid hyperbole in the interests of convincing the people of Pakistan of the limits of Chinese support and the need to work – somehow – with the United States?

The visit by China’s Meng probably told us more than we realise. It did not tell us very much about what China will do – if past history is anything to go by it will do very little and try to keep itself out of the fray. But it did tell us rather a lot about Pakistan – and the likelihood of the country’s civilian and military leaders closing ranks in the face of American pressure.

Pakistan’s China Syndrome | Pakistan: Now or Never?

Yaar woh kahawat to suni hogi "Pani me reh kar magar se bairr".Americans to do saal bad chaale jayenge.Use badd zardari , gilani aur sharif kyan karenge.Marwaoge kya unhe.

Well it is quite easy to write editorials that pakistani politicians should have grabbed the opportunity presented by Abottabad raid but forget that Pakistani politicians have to survive even after Americans withdrew from Afghanistan.What would these politicians do after that.
 
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Does it make a difference? In either case of war,they never transferred tech that would tilt the war in Pakistan's favor now did they?

And what weapon did they had in 71 that would have tilt the war in favor of Pakistan? Come on be factual. They provided us with reasonable help. That's it.

If they gave you toys in either of the wars it would have been help.


Read Santro's post.Post # 23.
 
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they helped with delivery systems for nukes what more toys pakistan needs? lol

My point is they could have single handedly won wars for Pakistan with their support,yet they didn't.
 
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Fact, = Blog is about Pakistan and China

Friends = Pakistan & China

This thread = hijacked by Hindu-stanis

Comments from Indians = Hindu-stani A-hole on fire.

Thus proven, hindu-stan poeple have volatile & ballistic A holes which gets ignited at the least insecurity.

Not really pal.China instigated antagonism is pushing other Asian nations towards our path and Pakistan's gripe with the United States is again pushing the US to pursue closer ties with India.Ironically, the biggest beneficiaries of your ties with China have been us!!!
 
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Still looking for the british journalist in that blog..
Still a blog.

Apparently.. China's free giveaway's of jets and AA has been forgotten by the naysayers of no help in 71.
If jets sold at wholesale rates or given free isnt help.. I wonder what is.

Well US sent an Aircraft carrier even when there was a threat of Escalating tensions with Soviets.I do not see pakistanis being beholden to USA.

And at that time china was operating planes from soviet design.won't their have been interoperability factors since Pakistan has mostly Nato Planes in its Inventory?

Well china could have helped Pakistan immensely if it would have feigned an attack on India.Only feigned not actually attacked as india would have to divert its assets to protect it's eastern border.So much for Higher than seas and deeper than mountains.
 
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Pakistan claims its friendship with China is deeper than the oceans and higher than the mountains. But what has China done to help Pakistan in:

> The 1965 war?

> In the 1971 war?

> Kargil?

> The promised $250 million in aid for Pakistan's flood victims has mostly remained on paper.

> Monetary aid requested by Pakistan was rebuffed by China and Pakistan had to go to the IMF instead.

> Pakistan-China trade amounts to a paltry $14 billion as per the economic survey for 2010-2011.

Apart from 'moral, political and diplomatic' support, what has China actually done on ground for Pakistan? The projects undertaken by China in Pakistan are not free. Pakistan has to pay for them. There are no free binges.

And by the way, both China and India are galloping ahead and are now the worlds fastest growing economies. Trade between them is of the order of $50 billion and slated to reach $100 billion by 2015!

In the meanwhile Pakistan is busy on a single point agenda of trying to achieve so called 'strategic depth' in Afghanistan, never mind the poverty, lack of health care, education, and a floundering economy. These don't count. The obsession with India is the be-all and end-all of the Pakistan Establishment's very existence.

Little does Pakistan realise that China is using Pakistan only as a buffer and proxy to keep its Southern flank protected against India. No wonder it is going all out to arm Pakistan with military hardware, nukes and delivery systems. So much for Pakistan-Chini bhai bhai!!
 
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One thing Pakistani Posters forget while claiming "Higher than seas and deeper than mountain" is simple cold reality of geopolitical facts.

If China sticks to its pledge that "Pakistan's security is our security" and does full monty for pakistan in case of a conflict with India(They would not even consider declaring war on US for sake of Pakistan),they would drive India completely into US camp.Well now consider you are Chinese premier would you want to be in a situation where your primary enemy is allied to Japan(3rd largest Economic power),Europe(Technological powerhouse and a Nato partner),India(Economically 9th largest in nominal and 3rd largest in PPP and second fastest growing and militarily having 2nd largest army with 1.2million active and another 2 million in reserve),Korea,Japan,Australia,Vietnam and this list could go on.Well if i am chinese premier what i would want is to prevent the alliance against China from being formed in first place.

India cannot join an alliance against china until china becomes openly hostile to India as being neighbour in case of a conflict India would suffer more than America.Ditto with other elements of any anti china alliance.

Would china risk an openly hostile India?

well i dont think so.After all combined might of Nato,India,Japan,Korea would be too much even for superduper china as many chinese posters would think(That too after not taking into account middle income trap or a social upheavel).
 
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One thing Pakistani Posters forget while claiming "Higher than seas and deeper than mountain" is simple cold reality of geopolitical facts.

If China sticks to its pledge that "Pakistan's security is our security" and does full monty for pakistan in case of a conflict with India(They would not even consider declaring war on US for sake of Pakistan),they would drive India completely into US camp.Well now consider you are Chinese premier would you want to be in a situation where your primary enemy is allied to Japan(3rd largest Economic power),Europe(Technological powerhouse and a Nato partner),India(Economically 9th largest in nominal and 3rd largest in PPP and second fastest growing and militarily having 2nd largest army with 1.2million active and another 2 million in reserve),Korea,Japan,Australia,Vietnam and this list could go on.Well if i am chinese premier what i would want is to prevent the alliance against China from being formed in first place.

India cannot join an alliance against china until china becomes openly hostile to India as being neighbour in case of a conflict India would suffer more than America.Ditto with other elements of any anti china alliance.

Would china risk an openly hostile India?

well i dont think so.After all combined might of Nato,India,Japan,Korea would be too much even for superduper china as many chinese posters would think(That too after not taking into account middle income trap or a social upheavel).

exactly now its time for india to form some anti china alliance,china is arming pakistan to its core and will continue to do so,japan,south korea,vietnam and india should engage in military activities vigorously.
 
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Mr Rehman Malik told visiting Chinese vice-prime minister Meng Jianzhu "China's enemy is Islamabad's enemy,"
"China's enemy is Islamabad's enemy," interior minister Rehman Malik told visiting Chinese vice-prime minister Meng Jianzhu on Tuesday, and vowed to "strike very hard against" Uighur militants based in his country. Alongside, ISI chief Shuja Pasha was dispatched to Riyadh to hold talks with Saudi officials.
OMG !!! I don't understan
 
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A bharati talking about Bogeys. lol. :lol:

Hanste hanste rona seekh rahe ho kya Sir. You guys are too much. That is what a whole generation of chasing mirages does to the national psyche it seems. No one in India is obsessed with Pakistan anymore. It is now becoming quite boring. Whatever obsession was there would have been long gone had it not been the love and need of the Pakistani army to scare their countrymen and to stay in eteeerrrrnaaall power by showing the India bogey. Now if you think that India should not have taken protective and counter measures than I am sorry Sir that we disappointed you by not being defeated by your commando and superior 1 = 100 generals. And before you ask me the question that what am I then doing on this forum and this thread, well I am learning about how a society and country can go wrong. Also the occasional entertainment of the frequent hyperboles is too enticing to decline.

In fact I love this cesspool situation so much that I will not follow the others to say that you guys should wake up to smell the coffee. I think the situation is more serious than that. It is best that you guys stay just as blissfully unaware of your situation as you are currently else there will be another spate of conspiracy theories and who knows what the beautiful mind could conjure this time. May be that picture from NFP the other day = Qasim on a camel on the moon.

And hey, China is your all weather friend and they will help Pakistan a lot like the 1.5 Million USD PROMISE that they made yesterday. That is a hell lot of money. Spend it wisely please. I think that best way to spend will be to buy some stuff from China. May be a locomotive. That will be a very good decision going by the recent performances of these locomotives.
 
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