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Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

How exactly would you:

A. Deploy this mixed bag fleet of obsolete and/or heavy fighters in a real world scenario

B. Manage the training and logistics of three types with two different generation engines and performance parameters?

C. The distance to eastern India( assuming you are wanting to fly across mainland India to get to eastern India) is about 1200mi of which 90% is over hostile airspace with air defense and interceptors. That is also roughly the same distance to the southernmost IN base.

The maximum straight line radius of operations for a JH-7 is about 1000mi with refueling and assuming no AB use and forgetting any on station time for them.

The maximum radius for the J-15/J-16 is around 1500mi to 1600mi on high altitude flight with zero evasive maneuvers and no station time(meaning it goes and comes back). Adding the real life aspects of having to engage enemy aircraft on route or means this range drops down further to around 900mi or so effective range which is really why the IAF can only consider using it’s MKIs to fly around Pakistan via air refueling.

So now we need air refueling back and forth to get to South or East India with any meaningful payload - which means that considering the threat level that High value asset so far from friendly skies is going to need its own protection that needs either a J-16 or J-15 to guard it. So now for just 4 J-16s you need 2 or 4 J-15s to guard its refueller. Then, even if these aircraft get that far they need a good indication where to look for vessels otherwise they need a MPA(another HVAA that will need support) out there to advise them where to fine tune their SEA mode searches since the flight time isn’t exactly 10 minutes and ships do move even if at a stately 25 knots.

Finally, after each sortie there is maintenance time so the average servicibikity of flanker variants even in the best of airforces barely crosses 65%. Which means of your proposed 50 mix of JH-7, J-15(why you are even including a carrier variant is beyond me) ,J-16 we have About 30 at best available of which only 20 would be the flanker variants with the pilot fatigue in that mix as well.

So even if we sent a flight of 2 armed with 4 AsHMs(which could even with a 100% success rate that never happens) take 8 ships out every time to fight their way to a target and fight it out with refueling - after the first day surge we would barely have 6-8 flankers serviceable at any given time for responses which may also be required for other duties as well besides blowing the IN out of the water.

Finally, assuming the obsolete “new” JH-7s cost $25 million , J-15s at $60 and J-16s at $65 and getting 16 aircraft each puts you at $2.4 billion for the airframes alone - add in training for pilots and technicians, facilities, spares, weapons adds another $400 million easily with higher priced spares since you cant use volume discounts nor offset with local production unlike the JF-17.

So for all that money you are getting three different systems that require a lot of support to achieve a goal that has really no need to occur with a lifecycle cost that will be too much to bear for the PN budget in the first place. Would love to see what your justifications are for A,B and C
Many people comprehend today's warfare in 50's or 60's midset (where speed and height was advantage). That's why they find a need for an outdated (sometimes less value addition equipment) and sometimes extravaganza platforms (type-55) or weapons in the Navy. The reality of today's Naval situation in IOR is that PN is and designed to be a defensive force and to challenge adversaries in their side of the ocean. Achieving the desired objectives in that part of India is only in the capability of a strategic bomber (with heavy constraints) or a carrier group, and PK has neither of them. PK will rather want to have gains in air and at land.
 
Yes indeed. PN just cannot match IN in numbers. The ONLY WAY is to have JH-7/J-15/J-16 type jets, around 50 in number, which can decimate IN, and can cover all of Eastern and Southern India and go all the way to Kerala.
J15/16 is not exportable to third country because J15/J16 are based on Russian Su33/Su30 designs, Which are Russian INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
 
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Many people comprehend today's warfare in 50's or 60's midset (where speed and height was advantage). That's why they find a need for an outdated (sometimes less value addition equipment) and sometimes extravaganza platforms (type-55) or weapons in the Navy. The reality of today's Naval situation in IOR is that PN is and designed to be a defensive force and to challenge adversaries in their side of the ocean. Achieving the desired objectives in that part of India is only in the capability of a strategic bomber (with heavy constraints) or a carrier group, and PK has neither of them. PK will rather want to have gains in air and at land.


I think your analysis is deeply flawed. What I've read and probably understand is, the need for a destroyer (or 3-4) is not a need, it's a must have, whether today or 5 years from now, along with LR-LE Submarines. To assume that the IN will field 3-5 AC's for "showcase" purposes only, is delusional.

In the next 5 years, the IN will probably be able to park an AC with supportive destroyers & frigates a 100 miles outside of Pakistan's EEZ (total distance to Karachi port about 500 miles). GMD's (guided missile destroyers) and LR silent submarines will come in very handy at that point. A GMD acts as a Missile silo with tremendous missile loadout to saturate any AD too.

Also, if China can't export J-11 / 16 (J-11 should be exportable as it's an internally built plane), Pakistan need to acquire the J-31 or at worst, 2 squadrons of J-10C (dedicated Naval air-arm). Sooner or later, these will become a must have.
 
I think your analysis is deeply flawed. What I've read and probably understand is, the need for a destroyer (or 3-4) is not a need, it's a must have, whether today or 5 years from now, along with LR-LE Submarines. To assume that the IN will field 3-5 AC's for "showcase" purposes only, is delusional.

In the next 5 years, the IN will probably be able to park an AC with supportive destroyers & frigates a 100 miles outside of Pakistan's EEZ (total distance to Karachi port about 500 miles). GMD's (guided missile destroyers) and LR silent submarines will come in very handy at that point. A GMD acts as a Missile silo with tremendous missile loadout to saturate any AD too.

Also, if China can't export J-11 / 16 (J-11 should be exportable as it's an internally built plane), Pakistan need to acquire the J-31 or at worst, 2 squadrons of J-10C (dedicated Naval air-arm). Sooner or later, these will become a must have.

India could not park a carrier anywhere near Pakistan during Kargil, 2001 stand off or Balakot. It will now have to contend with a Pakistan Navy that will be almost twice the size it was 20 years ago. Then there is also the case of 750km Habour/Zarb missiles based in costal battaries, AIP subs and P-3Cs.

Unsure if IN would risk it's premier asset this way, the loss of a carrier for them would actually be the biggest conventional military disaster to befall them.

Add the fast that they barely have enough MIGs to fly off it and those that do will be spent defending the carrier, the actual utility of the carrier will be akin to a tea pot made of chocolate....
 
Brothers CAN WE PLEASE STOP THE posts on Navy air wings please? Create a separate thread for it. in the last two pages all we have seen are posts about the J-series aircraft.
Or use this thread;

 
If you post other than the topic you face being thread banned now.
I’ve asked nicely.
 
Yes they did, I left those before my warning.
Dear mediator,
To begin with, I just made a couple of correction regarding the misconceptions in the discussion. The reply I made was to windup that discussion and bring it back to topic. You would have understood it, but only if you would understand the naval warfare.
Additionally I did not initiate the topic, let alone arguing and emphasizing about it. I can still see that J-series topic still present in the recent posts.
Furthermore, I don't have time nor character to get involved in prolonged arguments.
In conclusion, I am astonished to see this. I would leave it to other senior members' better judgment and experience to decide the level of mediation.

Regards.
 
Hey guys, cool it.No need to get harsh among each other.Rules are never followed 100% to their letter and spirit anyway.Let it go and lets get back to the topic.

Looks like 1st ship is in its final stages.Any news about 2nd ship?
 
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A follow up 4 Order of Type054 is the need for the Hour , the main deciding factor is of course is Chinese Engineering speed :pakistan: :china:

After 4 new Ships are ordered plan out the retirement of the older 2 British Ships or use the older ships for training (Ships from 1970's are a bit outdated for 2021), unless there are provisions to get new British Navy ships , since I am not really aware of such approach the Type054 is the ideal solution

Italy also has some good ships to offer would be also ok to get 2 Italian Ships if they are on offer



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The Dutch OPV was also a very good option for Lighter OPV , it is a in-budget ship which can be loaded with some missiles fairly good priced OPV being 90 meters , having versatility excellent ship

Lacking a Cannon at front but decent Anti Ship / Stealth / Anti Ship + Airborne Submarine Hunting chopper
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