Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[Aamir Hussain]

IMHO war with India will be short and eventually a nuclear conflict. Pakistan will have to use tactical nukes there is no going back on this given the disparity in conventional forces in all areas!!!

If we go by limited war theorists, then I guess India will launch an armored thrust supported by heavy mechanized infantry just below Chorr and try to drive towards National Highway and try linking up with an amphibious assault in the creeks area south of Badin.

Why I am saying what I am saying? Increased intelligence gathering activity has been going on in this area since last several years including HUMINT (a number of low level intercepts of couriers have been done in recent pasts) and special interest in this area. Furthermore, India has been constantly beefing up its Amphibious assets in a big way including an ex Austin/Trenton Class LPD which can carry upto 900 marines and 6 Sea Knight rotor wing craft.

This attack will put pressure on Karachi and draw troops from Kashmir. I believe, Sindh will be the focal point pf any new limited war scenario with the obkjective of mounting pressure on the two ports through both land and amphibious landings supported by naval air cover and IAF support cover from Bhuj, Jamnagar etc. I believe Jaguar Squadron is stationed at Jamanagar including MKI's and SU a/c at both these airfields.

 

[Army research]

IMHO war with India will be short and eventually a nuclear conflict. Pakistan will have to use tactical nukes there is no going back on this given the disparity in conventional forces in all areas!!!

If we go by limited war theorists, then I guess India will launch an armored thrust supported by heavy mechanized infantry just below Chorr and try to drive towards National Highway and try linking up with an amphibious assault in the creeks area south of Badin.

Why I am saying what I am saying? Increased intelligence gathering activity has been going on in this area since last several years including HUMINT (a number of low level intercepts of couriers have been done in recent pasts) and special interest in this area. Furthermore, India has been constantly beefing up its Amphibious assets in a big way including an ex Austin/Trenton Class LPD which can carry upto 900 marines and 6 Sea Knight rotor wing craft.

This attack will put pressure on Karachi and draw troops from Kashmir. I believe, Sindh will be the focal point pf any new limited war scenario with the obkjective of mounting pressure on the two ports through both land and amphibious landings supported by naval air cover and IAF support cover from Bhuj, Jamnagar etc. I believe Jaguar Squadron is stationed at Jamanagar including MKI's and SU a/c at both these airfields.

The need of the hour is mobile , credible active seeker ( unlike LY80 though they are a welcome step in the right direction ) medium long and short range SAM systems in South Punjab, Sindh.
If a surprise assault comes it will only be a follow on to a massive air strike, and no matter how many AWACS CAP you have in air , they will fire their munitions and go back in their own extensive sam coverage ,
Pakistan desperately needs good quality SAMs, which can work in an intense jamming environment and mobile to extend umbrella into foxland,
If you can hold the IAF at bay, no Indian armour would assault without at least limited air superiority,
Also needed are anti guided missiles however not guided man portable ones, these systems due to constraints of a man or 2 carrying them have limited range ,
Rather take the already present concept of land rover defender based , m113 based and potentially Hamza mcv based , long range anti tank guided missiles, with greater range than tank rounds , ( these might be expensive compared to conventional guided missiles )
Now pair jamming proof ( to a degree) SAMs, mobile long range tank hunter missiles ( a potent physiological weapon) and already present intelligence, rocket artillery and airforce , you have a very very effective deterrent, so troops are not drawn down from Kashmir,
As for the naval front I can't comment as I have really limited knowledge of war on the seas ,
But what I have mentioned above is also the thought of several battalion commanders and young officers, though let's see when the old lot actually go forward with the plans.
An effective indigenous or TOT produced SAM of 100+ km range along with a panstir equivalent is the need of the hour , the airforce is already on track to AZM and a new UAV, the army needs to think of next generation warfare too now, it's doing well in the unconventional sector, but it needs to pick up the pace in terms of conventional next gen warfare ,
The next indo pak is inevitable and will be a decisive war, with the victor taking all , it won't be like 65 or 71

 

[waz]

Brothers please keep to the topic, we can discuss war scenarios in other threads. Let's write about the Type54A or anything linked to it.

 

[HariPrasad]

Great. Now Indian ships will have worthy opponent. Well done.

 

[Basel]

Long range coastal Anti ship batteries and our AIP subs would kill any Indian surface fleet.

Its not as simple as you post here, PN submarines will also have responsibility to go for search and destroy IN nuclear submarines which will be armed with SLBMs & SLCMs, also IN will deploy their assets like Kilo/scorpion submarines to protect their nuclear subs, so its not simple task for PN subs in future.

IMO ... I agree with @Aamir Hussain as far as the PN building composite flotillas - i.e. 1 054A with 2 F-22P/Ada plus the Harba AShM/LACM-equipped Azmat FAC. However, I also agree with @Armchair in terms of accepting the inherent limitations of the PN, even with four flotillas. These ships will not be interdicting Indian trade and forcing the IN's hand so brazenly.

Rather, I think the PN will station each of its flotillas in key areas of its EEZ for the express purpose of firing the Harba AShM, which should offer a minimum (based on the Babur 3 SLCM) range of 450 km. In effect, the 054A's purpose is to basically give area-wide AAW cover and stand-off range targeting (via the OTHR) to the Azmat FACs and, again ideally, other FACs and possibly even submarines (once their ASCMs are in the air) in the area. The idea is to maintain the ability to threaten those ships from long-range.

There's no guarantee of blocking India's supplies, but the ability to strike those targets and/or the IN from within a safety umbrella (i.e. within the PAF's range) could dissuade some activity. If not offensive, then perhaps at least an assurance that your own trade doesn't get compromised by the IN!

PN can not block Indian ports, but with SLCMs they can disrupt or put pressure on their ports by hitting some important targets

IMHO war with India will be short and eventually a nuclear conflict. Pakistan will have to use tactical nukes there is no going back on this given the disparity in conventional forces in all areas!!!

If we go by limited war theorists, then I guess India will launch an armored thrust supported by heavy mechanized infantry just below Chorr and try to drive towards National Highway and try linking up with an amphibious assault in the creeks area south of Badin.

Why I am saying what I am saying? Increased intelligence gathering activity has been going on in this area since last several years including HUMINT (a number of low level intercepts of couriers have been done in recent pasts) and special interest in this area. Furthermore, India has been constantly beefing up its Amphibious assets in a big way including an ex Austin/Trenton Class LPD which can carry upto 900 marines and 6 Sea Knight rotor wing craft.

This attack will put pressure on Karachi and draw troops from Kashmir. I believe, Sindh will be the focal point pf any new limited war scenario with the obkjective of mounting pressure on the two ports through both land and amphibious landings supported by naval air cover and IAF support cover from Bhuj, Jamnagar etc. I believe Jaguar Squadron is stationed at Jamanagar including MKI's and SU a/c at both these airfields.

Here marines and FACs with other assets will be very important for PN.

 

[Rafi]

PN has classified plans that have been war gamed that will have the potential to cripple the enemy. Part of that is here, and part of it is in the pipeline.

nuff said.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well I was interested to know if we can add our tactical Nasr Missile on these Type054
Having 1-2 Units on these ships would be a great insurance policy

 

[CriticalThought]

PN has classified plans that have been war gamed that will have the potential to cripple the enemy. Part of that is here, and part of it is in the pipeline.

nuff said.

Hangor 2 + mini subs??? One thing that is very clear to me is that asymmetric warfare will not work. There is no Nasr type solution. We either need lots of firepower distributed in smaller packages, or we need lots of firepower in a few hefty ships. In either case, emphasis is on lots of firepower. Personally, I prefer the distributed approach utilizing sub-surface, (semi-)autonomous elements.

 

[Tank131]

Well I was interested to know if we can add our tactical Nasr Missile on these Type054
Having 1-2 Units on these ships would be a great insurance policy

Why would you want to add Nasr to any ship? Its a short range rapid fire missile...which IN ship is going to exchange missiles with you at 60km? Fights between IN and PN will happen at 100+ km...any ship within 60km will be blown away by AShM from air sea and land (on both sides). Nasr is meant to annihilate large swaths of ground troops and armor in. Much the way a MBRL does, just at with the potential for nuclear tipped missiles.

 

[Armchair]

Why would you want to add Nasr to any ship? Its a short range rapid fire missile...which IN ship is going to exchange missiles with you at 60km? Fights between IN and PN will happen at 100+ km...any ship within 60km will be blown away by AShM from air sea and land (on both sides). Nasr is meant to annihilate large swaths of ground troops and armor in. Much the way a MBRL does, just at with the potential for nuclear tipped missiles.

While Nasr makes no sense, the classified range of Nasr is greater than 60km... and not marginally greater.

PN has classified plans that have been war gamed that will have the potential to cripple the enemy. Part of that is here, and part of it is in the pipeline.

nuff said.

Really excellent posts by you, thank you. However, how many shore-based batteries does PN have? How are they distributed? what happens when there is a sudden concentration of Indian Navy forces in one sector? What happens if IN / IAF air assets take out such batteries or the radars that will be used to target?

Every navy in this planet has classified plans to cripple the enemy. Question is if those plans will stand when shit hits the fan.

54As are useful for their air defence capability. They are not going to be able to attack the Indian coast. They are not going to be able to go too far away from Pakistani coast, unless they wish to be overwhelmed with numbers and firepower.

IN has a dozen destroyers and over a dozen frigates. Most outgunning the PN fleet. Its new corvettes are the size and capability of the F-22P. It has about a dozen corvettes and even more OPVs and FACs.

A large number of submarines and an aircraft carrier.

If it throws a concentrated attack on Karachi, classified plans not withstanding, another disaster will repeat itself and then some new scape-goat will be found like last time "oh we didn't have MPA" or "we didn't coordinate properly with PAF" or whatever.

The response from PN seems to be to try to utilize conventional strategies, with large submarines being the lead actress. This is a good strategy, a reasonable one, but nothing innovative or out of the box. It is a deterent to some degree, increasing the cost of a conflict threshold but not changing the outcome.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Just to reinforce what you have wrote in your post.....the attack on Karachi Port in 71' was carried out by 2 Ossa Class FAC's!! So disruption is possible with a small force too. PN at that time could not a mount an effective area denial patrol. On top of that PN destroyer Khyber was lost to another FAC attack.

 

[Armchair]

Just to reinforce what you have wrote in your post.....the attack on Karachi Port in 71' was carried out by 2 Ossa Class FAC's!! So disruption is possible with a small force too. PN at that time could not a mount an effective area denial patrol. On top of that PN destroyer Khyber was lost to another FAC attack.

Thanks Aamir, that is good recollection of history. Next one won't have only 2 Ossa Class for sure. Massive firepower at range IMHO.

 

[randomradio]

This is a piece I had written before the acquisition of Type 54A was revealed in another thread (Sparrow needed). We do talk about the weapon systems till death but seldom discuss where they fit into the strategy. So I thought let me give it a try--so here it goes. I have updated the write-up in italics in light of new acquisitions.

"IMHO and with little bit of study of Naval Power, Pak Navy's role is defensive and keeping its SLOC open during a conflict with India. Its strike element is its Submarine Force and Aviation Arm and not its surface fleet!

Adding a AAW frigate with strong AShM is at the most extending the Air Defense umbrella a little bit further into the ocean to guard its SLOC.... again essentially, a defensive role for the surface fleet.

I for one do not see PN going beyond acquiring two heavy AAW Frigates around which it can build two flotillas with a mix of one AAW and possibly two ASW frigates with heavy AShM punch. Two ASW (this was written before the announcement of Type 54A) Frigates are a min. must for an effective ASW patrol and hunting (but I have serious doubts about F22P and its ASW capability with light weight torps. and its sonar. Maybe, the next round of purchase from either Turkey or China will beef up this area). This dove tails with two Fleet Replenishment Platforms operated by PN (I believe very soon, work on the second ship of the Turkish Fleet Tanker will be started). By the latest order, of surface vessels not one but two fleet replenishment ships need to be added to the fleet to support four patrol groups.

One of the Patrol groups will be, in my opinion, stationed off the coast of Southern part of Oman in the event hostilities and the other will be somewhere off the coast of Gawader. Gawader becoming the primary port of entry for both oil and dry cargo and very soon and will be used as such in the event of open hostilities breaking out between India and Pakistan. Ideally there should be three patrol groups one should be based near Socotra (Using Chinese base at Djibouti as replenishment base) and the other, somewhere off the coast of Al Wusta province of Oman. The north most group should be positioned east of Gawader and its patrol area should be the approaches to the straits of Hurmuz. This way search and seizure of India bound vessels can be carried out (However, If China openly sides with Pakistan than Djibouti can be used to mount patrols by Chinese Navy and free up PN units to concentrate more towards the coast mid of Oman and Hurmuz) This strategy would require a home port for the southern most group (That will be provided by I guess Djibouti.. the Chinese Base there). PN has now pretty long experience of navigating/patrolling these waters for anti piracy operations. However such a strategy will dictate three AAW frigates and atleast four more ASW/AShM frigates.

The above strategy has been vindicated by the order of not two, not three but four Type 54A frigates! They will form the core of the four Surface Patrol/Hunter Killer Anti Submarine Groups and the fourth will be stationed behind the picket/patrol line of submarines south east of Karachi, complimenting their patrol and provide support in the event of a seaborne landings near Sir Creek area which I anticipate will happen to tie down PA troops south of Chorr away from Northern Sindh and Naara Area.

The COMSUB would most certainly use its hunter killers in a patrol arc starting about 100 KM off the coast of Runn of Kutch and ending somewhere west of Karachi but between Ormara and KHI.

The airborne LRP and Early Warning will be provided, in this area, by Orions and Karakoram Eagles and Deep Strike by the Naval Strike element out of Mehran and Masroor respectively.

Airborne LRP/Strike will be provided again by Orions and KE's out of Turbat. (One of the KE is temporarily stationed at PAF Shahrahe e Faisal. There are only Three permanent facilities for KE at Masroor. I believe the fourth and any subsequent follow-on orders for these birds will be stationed at Turbat to provide long range AWACS support West of Karachi.) In the West. Point air defense and CAP will be provided by PAF planes out of Pasni. But this needs to be beefed up as currently the PAF base over there can only handle eight fighter a/c to cover Ormara and Gawader (Pasni is situated about midway between Gawader and Ormara). Two more pens are under construction at PAF Pasni that would give 8 + 2 pens at Pasni, and 4 at Gawader. Again inadequate Point defense cover specially keeping in-view that they will be facing the Indian SU menace)

Close in Littoral defense will be the responsibility of various of corvettes and Fast Attack Missile boats being added to PN fleet. The pivot points for this defense would be the three ports of PQA, KHI & Gawader. Ormara would defend its self from air and sea attack by on Land AA/SAM assets and shore based AsHM if need be. The high powered surveillance radar at both Hawakes Bay and Ormara gives a panoramic view of the approaches to both KHI (Main Naval Base) and Ormara (Right now the secondary Naval Facility). Addition of six more FAC's are expected that will help provide the inshore defense at both Gawader and Ormara.

The strategic punch will remain with atleast two Chinese built Subs out of the eight being acquired, armed with nuclear tipped cruise missiles. By the end of the program of inducting eight subs, PN will have 11 subs (INMHO 12 are the min. required but that is my opinion). Which will be sufficient to mount effective aggressor patrols far out into and beyond our EEZ. ACNS NSFC will have direct command over the use of the two nuclear armed subs through COMSUB PN.

I also believe that PN is looking for an effective deep strike Air Element to counter the IN Carrier Group. Also lacking is a coherent and credible Air defense of the coastal belt West of Karachi. PAF has neglected this area and I do not see any significant activity on ground to close this gap. In total there are not more than a dozen or so hardened pens in the entire Markran Coastal Belt!! In past wargames conducted at the War College, SU-30 long range and the threat of its use towards the western approaches was a real headache. This was validated in a number of simulations played over many courses at the War College. I am not divulging a military secret here. It is a known fact and was played out even where foreign course participants/officers were part of the simulations.

I acknowledge that there are definite holes in the above scenario. But the general deployment would be similar to what I surmise above.

My 2C's worth. Please feel free to shoot holes in it!!"

Everything from Sir Creek all the way to Karachi is bad for amphibious landings.

And if you throw numbers around, you will find that we will have too many fighter aircraft for the PN to contend with.

 

[Tank131]

Really excellent posts by you, thank you. However, how many shore-based batteries does PN have? How are they distributed? what happens when there is a sudden concentration of Indian Navy forces in one sector? What happens if IN / IAF air assets take out such batteries or the radars that will be used to target?

Every navy in this planet has classified plans to cripple the enemy. Question is if those plans will stand when shit hits the fan.

54As are useful for their air defence capability. They are not going to be able to attack the Indian coast. They are not going to be able to go too far away from Pakistani coast, unless they wish to be overwhelmed with numbers and firepower.

IN has a dozen destroyers and over a dozen frigates. Most outgunning the PN fleet. Its new corvettes are the size and capability of the F-22P. It has about a dozen corvettes and even more OPVs and FACs.

A large number of submarines and an aircraft carrier.

If it throws a concentrated attack on Karachi, classified plans not withstanding, another disaster will repeat itself and then some new scape-goat will be found like last time "oh we didn't have MPA" or "we didn't coordinate properly with PAF" or whatever.

The response from PN seems to be to try to utilize conventional strategies, with large submarines being the lead actress. This is a good strategy, a reasonable one, but nothing innovative or out of the box. It is a deterent to some degree, increasing the cost of a conflict threshold but not changing the outcome.

Nobody in Pak Military thinks outside the box. I have for years advocated a stronger for a small strategic bomber fleet in PN for heavy saturating Cruise Missile strikes on IAF SAM and FOB positions and similarly advocated for increasing the numbers of PNs ASW aircraft fleet, specifically the Y-8GX6 which can carry 8 torpedoes or 4-6 AShM. The Orions are capable of delivering Harpoons (4 per aircraft). Using naval assets like JF-17 for strike is fool hardy in pitched battles. For patrol is one thing but if IN brings a CBG you will need those JF-17 To take out fighters in order to attack the ships. Using the JF-17 as escorts you can deliver far greater weaponry to target with ASW aircraft like the Y-8 and P-3c.

 

[Army research]

Nobody in Pak Military thinks outside the box. I have for years advocated a stronger for a small strategic bomber fleet in PN for heavy saturating Cruise Missile strikes on IAF SAM and FOB positions and similarly advocated for increasing the numbers of PNs ASW aircraft fleet, specifically the Y-8GX6 which can carry 8 torpedoes or 4-6 AShM. The Orions are capable of delivering Harpoons (4 per aircraft). Using naval assets like JF-17 for strike is fool hardy in pitched battles. For patrol is one thing but if IN brings a CBG you will need those JF-17 To take out fighters in order to attack the ships. Using the JF-17 as escorts you can deliver far greater weaponry to target with ASW aircraft like the Y-8 and P-3c.

Think about it this way , 2 Pakistani bombers, costing the same as 8-9 17's , take off from pasni, cruise missile range 1200 KM , Indian radar picks them up , ( bombers tend to have a large RCS) , ships perform evasive manuvers, flanker and rafale from mainland take off to bag the prize asset bombers, Mig 29 from CBG lift off ,
Bombers only work when you have at least limited local air superiority,
An asset is only good if it can be reused