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Pakistan & Iran Joint Naval Drill

They have over 30 submarines and produce their own naval ships. The Iranian navy is better than ours (can't say the same about their Army or Air Force though).



Yeah, and better trained.



Their navy is bigger and has achieved more than ours.
You have got to be kidding me! Are you an iranian?
30 old north korean or midget submarines doesn't really mean anything. The quality and quantity of their ships which are battle worthy is abysmal.
The iranian military is very well designed to keep the non-persian ethnicities in line in term of combat they are quite bad as was evident from the iran iraq war where iranian lost much more in terms of lives and equipment. They even resorted to children fighting which no professional military ever does.
The iranian is economically very vulnerable if you take out the oil its economy it is more than halved and it is very easy to take out the oil terminal on kharg island where 90% of iranian oil is shipped.
The iranian navy is also quite small it has a lot of patrol boats and the few "destroyers" they have lack in sophistication to pose any threat. They also have no credible naval aviation. I get it they have been under sanctions but so has pakistan Yet one of PN's zulfiquar class frigate can close of the strait of hormuz for iranians and take them out economically. I suggest that you should do better research before making such outlandish claims.
 
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To all the people jumping with joy at these drills, let me inform you that Iranians hate us. we had very close relationship with them during the Shah's regime, but not anymore. If you don't believe me just go and check Iranian military forum. I went there thinking that Iran and Pakistan are brotherly nations, but after being there and reading what they write about Pakistan and Pakistani people, i have changed my mind. They actually call Pakistan a terrorist nation and are actively calling for the destruction of the country.

I have tried to reason with them to understand where the hatred is coming from, but its no use. we would be better off keeping them as far away as possible and stop calling them brotherly nation coz they are not brotherly at all.
 
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To all the people jumping with joy at these drills, let me inform you that Iranians hate us. we had very close relationship with them during the Shah's regime, but not anymore. If you don't believe me just go and check Iranian military forum. I went there thinking that Iran and Pakistan are brotherly nations, but after being there and reading what they write about Pakistan and Pakistani people, i have changed my mind.

Couldnt agree with u more. Iran is ruled by faggot mullas who are creating havoc everywhere just because of their stupid ideology.
 
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A bit off topic.
But can sound signature of submarines be recorded, and later used to trace them?
I'm sorry if it sounds really daft but I know very little about submarine warfare.
@Penguin Can you perhaps shed light onto this, please?
 
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But can sound signature of submarines be recorded, and later used to trace them?

Yes it can, Meap (Ex-submariner here:partay:. Mind you I know more about the electronics then anything else:enjoy:.).

More then just the machinery or prop design of the submarine goes into its "noise" though. The echoes made by the submarines wave-generation against the local topography (underwater mountains, trenches, etc.), the presence of natural emitters (sea life, geological movements) and, the ocean's temperature or the water's depth, the "noise" a particular item makes will vary depending on the relevance or presence of a number of factors.

Each of these emitters can also alter the EM signature of a submarine and make magnetic detection more difficult. I touched on this in a different thread:

https://defence.pk/threads/so-you-want-to-detect-a-submarine.362636/

As for what you can do with that acoustic signature... identification is the most common use. If you know it's "noise" for a given set of parameters, a submarine operating in the straight of Horuz (where we can accurately ascertain the relevant metrics of the local waters - such as a lack of undersea features, depth and average temp) can be easily identified based on store metrics, including acoustic, but also including magnetic, size and possible EM signatures (the latter dissipates quickly in water as does IR). We'd know an Iranian Fateh class from a Pakistani Agosta90 b and that from one of our Virginia's saying hello to regional undersea metallic fauna in a cylindrical shape and emitting EM signals... cables for short:D.

Based mostly around their noise for a given set of parameters, which will change as the submarines operates in different areas and waters.

Can you also use this data to help a weapon discriminate against background noise too? Say upload it to a torpedo to have it guide itself towards an enemy based on their emissions? Yes, but cable guidance is still the preferred option for submarine launched torpedoes as it's low-probability of intercept.

Quick strike torpedoes, often referred to as light weight, typically will use active sonar or acoustic homing.

1920px-MK46_torpedo_launch.jpg


One such system that uses noise to distinguish between hostile targets and friendlies, and only attack those matching a given signature, is the US Navy's Mark 60 CAPTOR mine:

1280px-Mark_60_CAPTOR-DF-ST-90-11649.JPEG


The Mark 60 CAPTOR is a fancy piece of kit known as an Encapsulated Torpedo that houses one of the Mk 46 torpedoes in the above photo (two above actually).

It uses passive sonar and discrimination software to identify the noise signature of passing vessels. When it detects something that isn't friendly, the Mk 46 torpedo is launched to attack the target. It quickly switches into active sonar to be able to trace a moving, possibly evading target.

Sonar emits or receives sound waves and maps an area based on the return:

1024px-Miinitraaleri_%22Virsaitis%22_vrakk.jpg


Acoustic homing relies on microphones to sweep for "unnatural noises" or noises of interest. If a certain noise profile is uploaded, a torpedo, as shown with the CAPTOR mine, will attempt to locate and track it by using a collection of microphones to ascertain where the noise is noisiest.

Active Acoustic Homing is also known as active sonar, so there's a bit of an overlap too between the two types of guidance. Active homing does not require you to know the target's signature, it'll find it itself.

So in short, you can register their "noise" but more then just the sound the submarine's machinery, or people or operations make matters. So to do natural causes, like ocean depth or temperature or man-made disturbances such as underwater cables or surface ships, all of which will mask or alter the submarine's noise emissions.

Once you have that info for a given area (one where you know the depth, average temp, underwater topography, etc.) you can use that info for identification or attack, depending on your inclination.

...

Any questions?

30 old north korean or midget submarines doesn't really mean anything.

They're still a credible threat in their given area. They are not to be mocked except by the ignorant or arrogant.

Besides, Iran also has a few Kilos and no one dares mock their credibility.

Islamic+Republic+of+Iran+Navy+%2528IRIN%2529+Kilo+naval+diesel-electric+submarineProject+636+Varshavyanka+Project+877+Paltus+%2528Turbot%2529+anti-shipping+and+anti-submarine+operations+exercise+fired+misile+teropedo+%25281%2529.jpg


Iran doesn't have the flashiest or most modern (or largest) navy in the world and the IRGC adds only a bit to its overall capabilities, but having outdated designs doesn't mean they can't do damage. We, the USN (I work for them so, yes, we) respect what the Iranian Navy has.
 
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Yes it can, Meap (Ex-submariner here:partay:. Mind you I know more about the electronics then anything else:enjoy:.).

I m shocked, man. OMG, it means Iranians must have had recorded sound signatures of our submarine which can be used to trace our submarine in future.....They are also very close to Indians.......:angry:

To all those Pakistanis who were very happy on joint drills with Iranians....Do u know what we had done here? We always hammered our leg, every time. :angry:
 
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I m shocked, man. OMG, it means Iranians must have had recorded sound signatures of our submarine which can be used to trace our submarine in future.....They are also very close to Indians.......:angry:

To all those Pakistanis who were very happy on joint drills with Iranians....Do u know what we had done here? We always hammered our leg, every time. :angry:

oh yara is tarhan nahin hotaa. let me put it in simple language. there is a peacetime signature and then theres a wartime signature.
 
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Yes it can, Meap (Ex-submariner here:partay:. Mind you I know more about the electronics then anything else:enjoy:.)


They're still a credible threat in their given area. They are not to be mocked except by the ignorant or arrogant.

Besides, Iran also has a few Kilos and no one dares mock their credibility.

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Iran has 3 Kilo submarines without the air independent propulsion
and I am not trying to be arrogant it is a mere observation. Iran was a credible threat in terms of it control on the strait of hormuz but it is no longer the case.
 
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Yes it can, Meap (Ex-submariner here:partay:. Mind you I know more about the electronics then anything else:enjoy:.).

More then just the machinery or prop design of the submarine goes into its "noise" though. The echoes made by the submarines wave-generation against the local topography (underwater mountains, trenches, etc.), the presence of natural emitters (sea life, geological movements) and, the ocean's temperature or the water's depth, the "noise" a particular item makes will vary depending on the relevance or presence of a number of factors.

Each of these emitters can also alter the EM signature of a submarine and make magnetic detection more difficult. I touched on this in a different thread:

https://defence.pk/threads/so-you-want-to-detect-a-submarine.362636/

As for what you can do with that acoustic signature... identification is the most common use. If you know it's "noise" for a given set of parameters, a submarine operating in the straight of Horuz (where we can accurately ascertain the relevant metrics of the local waters - such as a lack of undersea features, depth and average temp) can be easily identified based on store metrics, including acoustic, but also including magnetic, size and possible EM signatures (the latter dissipates quickly in water as does IR). We'd know an Iranian Fateh class from a Pakistani Agosta90 b and that from one of our Virginia's saying hello to regional undersea metallic fauna in a cylindrical shape and emitting EM signals... cables for short:D.

Based mostly around their noise for a given set of parameters, which will change as the submarines operates in different areas and waters.

Can you also use this data to help a weapon discriminate against background noise too? Say upload it to a torpedo to have it guide itself towards an enemy based on their emissions? Yes, but cable guidance is still the preferred option for submarine launched torpedoes as it's low-probability of intercept.

Quick strike torpedoes, often referred to as light weight, typically will use active sonar or acoustic homing.

1920px-MK46_torpedo_launch.jpg


One such system that uses noise to distinguish between hostile targets and friendlies, and only attack those matching a given signature, is the US Navy's Mark 60 CAPTOR mine:

1280px-Mark_60_CAPTOR-DF-ST-90-11649.JPEG


The Mark 60 CAPTOR is a fancy piece of kit known as an Encapsulated Torpedo that houses one of the Mk 46 torpedoes in the above photo (two above actually).

It uses passive sonar and discrimination software to identify the noise signature of passing vessels. When it detects something that isn't friendly, the Mk 46 torpedo is launched to attack the target. It quickly switches into active sonar to be able to trace a moving, possibly evading target.

Sonar emits or receives sound waves and maps an area based on the return:

1024px-Miinitraaleri_%22Virsaitis%22_vrakk.jpg


Acoustic homing relies on microphones to sweep for "unnatural noises" or noises of interest. If a certain noise profile is uploaded, a torpedo, as shown with the CAPTOR mine, will attempt to locate and track it by using a collection of microphones to ascertain where the noise is noisiest.

Active Acoustic Homing is also known as active sonar, so there's a bit of an overlap too between the two types of guidance. Active homing does not require you to know the target's signature, it'll find it itself.

So in short, you can register their "noise" but more then just the sound the submarine's machinery, or people or operations make matters. So to do natural causes, like ocean depth or temperature or man-made disturbances such as underwater cables or surface ships, all of which will mask or alter the submarine's noise emissions.

Once you have that info for a given area (one where you know the depth, average temp, underwater topography, etc.) you can use that info for identification or attack, depending on your inclination.

...

Any questions?



They're still a credible threat in their given area. They are not to be mocked except by the ignorant or arrogant.

Besides, Iran also has a few Kilos and no one dares mock their credibility.

Islamic+Republic+of+Iran+Navy+%2528IRIN%2529+Kilo+naval+diesel-electric+submarineProject+636+Varshavyanka+Project+877+Paltus+%2528Turbot%2529+anti-shipping+and+anti-submarine+operations+exercise+fired+misile+teropedo+%25281%2529.jpg


Iran doesn't have the flashiest or most modern (or largest) navy in the world and the IRGC adds only a bit to its overall capabilities, but having outdated designs doesn't mean they can't do damage. We, the USN (I work for them so, yes, we) respect what the Iranian Navy has.
Thank you for your input, I really do appreciate it :-).
I guess one such fear of mine is true. Any one snooping about our submarines in the sea can gain access to it's signature.
Personally for the PN, bringing out our submarines into military exercises is potentially lethal for our defense at sea, as our submarines are perhaps the only asset we have out there.
 
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To all the people jumping with joy at these drills, let me inform you that Iranians hate us. we had very close relationship with them during the Shah's regime, but not anymore. If you don't believe me just go and check Iranian military forum. I went there thinking that Iran and Pakistan are brotherly nations, but after being there and reading what they write about Pakistan and Pakistani people, i have changed my mind. They actually call Pakistan a terrorist nation and are actively calling for the destruction of the country.

I have tried to reason with them to understand where the hatred is coming from, but its no use. we would be better off keeping them as far away as possible and stop calling them brotherly nation coz they are not brotherly at all.
So what do you suggest? Just live in isolation? Who loves us anyway? China? Turkey may be? who else would you add to this list?

Plus note that there is not much love or hate between countries. There are just national interests. If the national interests of two nations overlap and they can find some mutual interest they will become allies. This said, the factor of religion and race cannot be simple thrown out here. These things do matter to some extent, even if it is just as a tool to find some mutual interest.

For your analysis of Iran-Pakistan relation, i agree that there are problems but understand this, we cannot afford to just walk away from this situation. We are fast losing friends in the world and there is no way one can survive in this modern day global village all by himself. We need friends and any little help must be welcomed. The global alliances can change pretty fast, you just need to be on your toes when such developments occur!
 
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I m shocked, man. OMG, it means Iranians must have had recorded sound signatures of our submarine which can be used to trace our submarine in future.....They are also very close to Indians.......:angry:

To all those Pakistanis who were very happy on joint drills with Iranians....Do u know what we had done here? We always hammered our leg, every time. :angry:
If they could record ours, we could record theirs ...
 
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This is a good news. At last we are doing something with Iran. Remember Iran was the first country that internationally recognized sovereign status of Pakistan. We should build more good relations with our neighbor.
 
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To all the people jumping with joy at these drills, let me inform you that Iranians hate us. we had very close relationship with them during the Shah's regime, but not anymore. If you don't believe me just go and check Iranian military forum. I went there thinking that Iran and Pakistan are brotherly nations, but after being there and reading what they write about Pakistan and Pakistani people, i have changed my mind. They actually call Pakistan a terrorist nation and are actively calling for the destruction of the country.

I have tried to reason with them to understand where the hatred is coming from, but its no use. we would be better off keeping them as far away as possible and stop calling them brotherly nation coz they are not brotherly at all.

Dont go by internet forums to understand the perceptions other nations have of you. Internet forums especially those of defence related issues tend to have a lot of nationalists, and emotions run high whenever incidents resulting in the death of their soldiers are involved. Iranian solders have died in Balochistan at the hands of smugglers and terrorists, no doubt about it. They blame Pakistan for a lack of control and monitoring of the border region. We are starting to do this now with Afghanistan and will gradually move down to the Iranian border as well (CPEC demands a stable Balochistan region). Therefore relations with Iran should improve, especially since China has agreed to fund the Pakistani part of the IP gas pipeline.

Making enemies where non exist is extreme folly. Granted Iranians arent pro Pakistan on Indo-Pak issues, but that doesnt mean they have to be anti-Pak either. We need to ensure that the Indians arent able to use the Iranians against us and that means we have to work with the Iranians to understand our differences. The more hate we have for Iran, the more they will lean towards India, and trust me, given that more than 70% of our borders are shared with hostile nations (India + Afghanistan), we do not need a hostile Iran as well. At the end of the day international relations are complex and things can change overnight. No point in holding grudges against anyone. You never know, yesterdays enemy might be your todays friend :)
 
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