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Pakistan in talks with US to procure latest F-16 jets: Air chief

:o::eek: advice from zarvan!!? really? why ?:disagree:


if the acm is saying the newer f16's will be more advanced than the current ones then its extreamly likely they will be eithere block 60's or vipers.

Production of block-60 have stopped and even UAE is now going for block-61, while latest version for export is F-16V.

Blk 61 in PAF colors would be quite an eye candy! :cheers:

On a serious note, if the Blk 61's can come, so can the rest of the fleet be upgraded to "V" specs.

What is different between Block-61 and "V"?
 
ISLAMABAD — Pakistan continues to talk to the US about purchasing a new tranche of F-16 fighters, but analysts here warn that it is unclear if or when such a deal could close.

Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, head of the Pakistani Air Force, was quoted in local media here Monday saying Pakistan was "in talks with US defense officials to get some [of the] latest F-16s but the deal may take some time." He spoke at an event to mark Pakistan Aeronautical Complex having manufactured its target of 16 JF-17 Block II for 2015.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...complaints-senate-gulf-weapon-sales/77111438/
That follows reports from mid-October that Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif would use a visit to Washington to push for the sale of eight F-16s for his military.

Pakistan currently operates a number of F-16 variants, so the addition of eight more jets is unlikely to have much impact on the local power balance between Pakistan and India.

However, the US Congress has historically been skeptical of arms sales to Pakistan, in no small part due to Indian lobbying, and any discussion of defense deals naturally must take this into account.

But circumstances could now be in Pakistan's favor. In addition to the Washington's speculated desire to maintain influence in Pakistan, there is a need to keep the F-16 production line open, which in the absence of domestic US orders can only be achieved through exports.

Despite the usual obstacles in the path of a deal, Brian Cloughley, an author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, says there is now a stronger chance that a deal could be struck.

"The India lobby in Congress is quite powerful and might help to block such sales to Pakistan, but the defense production lobby is much more influential,” Cloughley said. "On that basis, it's likely such a sale would get through."

Author and analyst Kaiser Tufail, who flew F-16s among other aircraft during his Air Force career, said that if negotiations really are serious he does not "see any reason why the US would be secretive about it."

He also questioned whether the US would use the possibility of more F-16s to maintain political ties with Pakistan at a time when China is strengthening its ties with the Asian nation.

"Under the ongoing Pak-China strategic cooperation, there must be great urgency in US quarters to retain influence in Pakistan. Any rumored offer of military hardware should be seen in that light," he said.

Lockheed Martin is represented in Pakistan by Kestrel, which also represents a number of other US firms such as Sikorsky, Gulf Stream, Hawker Beechcraft and L3 Communications. However, no comment was forthcoming from the firm about details such as the potential timeframe for a deal.

"There is no doubt that the F-16C-52 is the world's best single-engine fighter. Since we already operate a squadron of this type, its additional induction would be smooth," Tufail said.

David McKeeby, a spokesman for the State Department’s Bureau of Political-Military Affairs, declined to comment on a proposed sale until it has been formally notified to Congress.

However, McKeeby noted that, “When provided in the past, Pakistan has used US-funded equipment and US-provided technology to significant effect in their counter-terrorism efforts. Pakistan's F-16 is one key example of how US support has improved Pakistan's precision strike capability and capacity to combat terrorist elements in North Waziristan.”

Those operations, he noted, are “in the national interests of both Pakistan and the United States.”

Modernization Efforts

More F-16s would certainly speed up Pakistan's modernization efforts and Aman also stated the intention to replace the older generation of jets, such as the Mirage III/5 aircraft, by 2020.


First in line for replacement has been the Chengdu F-7P, of which small numbers are still operational. According to PAF officials the more advanced double-delta winged F-7PG is likely to remain as a point defense interceptor for the time being.

Even if the F-16 sale does not materialize, however, the JF-17 program is on course, and a spokesman for the Air Force said production would be increased to meet export orders. Though no official confirmation has yet been forthcoming, Myanmar is considered by analysts to have been the first export customer.

Four Pakistani Air Force squadrons are now equipped with the JF-17 and the number will grow as China and Pakistan signed a deal in April for the delivery of 50 aircraft in the coming three years.

Some parts of the JF-17, such as the rear fuselage, are still manufactured in China by Chengdu.

Even without further F-16s, Tufail believes the JF-17 can easily replace the remaining F-7P and Mirage III/5 fleets in the desired timeframe.

"We should have no problem as it is a well-planned and a phased program. The JF-17 production capacity of one squadron (16 aircraft) per year fits in well with the plans to complete the replacement by 2020."
 
Production of block-60 have stopped and even UAE is now going for block-61, while latest version for export is F-16V.
the f16 production line will remain open beyond 2020 and they will be produced in differant varients. the block 60 cant go to pakistan as it specific to the uae requirements and it powered by ge whilst pakistani f16's are powered by pw. most likely they will get the f16-v (viper) which is being offered to indoneasia as well

What is different between Block-61 and "V"?
whats the differance between the f16 block 15 and the block 52? the block 52 is better . same principle applies with the block 60 and the 61. thats all you need to know
 
What is different between Block-61 and "V"?

Of the top of my head.

Same radar, APG-83 that's where the similarities end.

Blk 61 - In built IRST ( as opposed to a podded one), In built sensors (as opposed to sensor pods i.e.SNIPER /LANTRIN), In built EW suite, Fiber optic bus, EMP Shielding, higher thrust engine, with a longer MTBO, upgraded navigational suite etc.

Regards
 
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Of the top of my head.

Same radar, APG-83 that's where the similarities end.

Blk 61 - In built IRST ( as opposed to a podded one), In built sensors (as opposed to sensor pods i.e.SNIPER /LANTRIN), Fiber optic bus, higher thrust engine, with a longer MTBO, upgraded navigational suite etc.

Regards

With all upgrade in new upcoming model of F-16 which PAF is buying the bold part above should also be must have, it will help fly secure in very hostile and advance EW environment.
 
Not only the 8 will come but in due time in the future more to follow just watch and see ... ;)
 
@rockstar08 @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch Here is an interesting piece of news:

While U.S. lawmakers have been critical of arms sales to Pakistan,Defense News reports there is an interest in maintaining the relationship to keep the F-16 production line open. With the U.S. Department of Defense moving forward with its next-generation F-35Lightning II program, which is meant to replace the F-16 fleet, the F-16 program is relying on exports and no longer enjoys domestic demand.

Pakistan eyeing deal for U.S. F-16 jets - UPI.com
 
@rockstar08 @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch Here is an interesting piece of news:

While U.S. lawmakers have been critical of arms sales to Pakistan,Defense News reports there is an interest in maintaining the relationship to keep the F-16 production line open. With the U.S. Department of Defense moving forward with its next-generation F-35Lightning II program, which is meant to replace the F-16 fleet, the F-16 program is relying on exports and no longer enjoys domestic demand.

Pakistan eyeing deal for U.S. F-16 jets - UPI.com
the same news also states that the defence sales lobby always has more say and control compared to the Indian lobby because it wants to protect the defence production industry
the articles and programs by Hussain Haqqani in USA (the real Haqqani network) and Najam Shathi in Geo channel against Pakistani military are are acts of desperation.
 
the same news also states that the defence sales lobby always has more say and control compared to the Indian lobby because it wants to protect the defence production industry
the articles and programs by Hussain Haqqani in USA (the real Haqqani network) and Najam Shathi in Geo channel against Pakistani military are are acts of desperation.

and acts of treason, and as such should be dealt accordingly.
 
and acts of treason, and as such should be dealt accordingly.
sorry this is not treason in current government setup. you will be praised if you declare a fight against the state and kill its people
only if you declare emergency then you are a traitor
 
the same news also states that the defence sales lobby always has more say and control compared to the Indian lobby because it wants to protect the defence production industry
the articles and programs by Hussain Haqqani in USA (the real Haqqani network) and Najam Shathi in Geo channel against Pakistani military are are acts of desperation.


Hi,

You know how the defense lobby works in the US---thru congress and senators---.

So----F16 is produced in X state-----close to city XY-----. This is where the people who work in the plant live---. Where they live---that is where they vote---. Their jobs have created a dependant economy and many other people are effected by the orders coming to the factory or the lack of orders.

The congressman wants his people to work---because they are his vote bank----the senator wants his people to work---because they are his vote bank. Lack of order will create major issues and problems in the area----alongwith lost business and unemployment----the property values will be reduced---.

So---the congressman and senator from the area is fighting for the contract----he is also eyeing those senators and congressmen who are against the approval---.

So---they will work it out amongst themselves what to do.
 
the same news also states that the defence sales lobby always has more say and control compared to the Indian lobby because it wants to protect the defence production industry
the articles and programs by Hussain Haqqani in USA (the real Haqqani network) and Najam Shathi in Geo channel against Pakistani military are are acts of desperation.
The most powerful influence in the U.S is cold hard U.S foreign policy interests. The U.S is planning to stay in the region for a while, but without the Pakistan military's full cooperation, that presence would be infeasible in the long-run. Hence the F-16s, which serve as a policy bridge for the U.S.
 
Going for any imported aircraft is going to cost, better the devil you know, than the one you don't. Sorry for the crude analogy, the Blk52+ is a very formidable platform. Kindly do keep in mind, A new platform means new infrastructure, all the way from civil works ( which is the easy part), to training pilots, engineers & technicians.


SU-35 on paper is out of this world. Practically speaking, the availability rate issue plagues every air force from Indonesia, Malaysia, to Algeria. You can blame availability of spares, poor customer service by the Russians, poor preemptive maintenance etc, but the ground reality is the Russians haven't thought this one through. Sorry.

The only reason the Chinese will NOT have this issue, (and do not), is because they have the capability to repair and manufacture a lot of the parts in house.

You are right inducting a new platform is quite a difficult task, especially if the unit numbers are low.



You are comparing apples to oranges, my good friend. Why are you comparing JF17 Blk3? Where is Blk3? Has it started incorporating the new AESA radar? Is is undergoing user trials? Not that we know of.

Having said all of this, as a stop gap measure the F16 Blk52+, as of now is an excellent "defensive" platform for the PAF, TODAY. Tomorrow, InShaAllah, the JF-17 might be even better than the F-16 Blk 52+

Lets hope these 8 open up the way for more, as well as "V" spec upgrades.

We were discussing a heavy long range fighter. The F-16 doesn't genuinely fulfil the requirement of a heavy long range fighter. It would be what you rightly say, a defensive fighter in nature for the PAF. The Su-35 is what we classify as a world class long range fighter being offered by the Russians. Not so long ago, we couldn't comprehend such an acquisition. Today, such a possibility is within our grasp and we need to take it firmly with both hands.

Bro, I'm well aware of the challenges of inducting a new platform. I have already mentioned that in my previous post. Whatever the challenges and cost scenarios, we cannot ignore the threat perception across the border. We may not have similar resources as our adversary, but we can (as we always have) combine quality with a certain amount of quantity. Quality dictates that we require a long range fighter which can challenge and match the acquisitions of our foe. Realistically, the F-16 is a limited platform as far as offensive capabilities are concerned. Especially range is a concern. As our naval ambitions grow, we also need to address this requirement. The Su-35, be it in smaller numbers, certainly fits the bill. As for challenges, everything is going to have a cost including the latest F-16s that we so desperately seek. Neither should it be surprising that the new F-16s would similarly require a revised infrastructure setup, training etc. It is not like we would be able to induct the new F-16s right away off the shelf.

Every acquisition has its pros and cons. Surely, the availability and timely delivery of spares has always been an issue with the Russians. However, who can claim with certainty that the Americans would be a reliable supplier for spares during wartime? Let's face it, the F-16 is like a beautiful golden dagger (sone ki churi pet me maarna). It is irresistible because it is worth every bang for buck. Yet, it is highly sanction prone for Pakistan. Not to mention the extremely ludicrous and stringent usage conditions.

The good news is that the Chinese are also acquiring the Su-35 platform. Pakistan could easily work out some sort of deal or venture to produce spares in collaboration with our ally. Pakistan could also directly request for some sort of ToT with respect to the spares. Everthing is possible with the flexible Russians as opposed to the difficult Americans. In other words, the poor availability of Russian spares can be addressed in numerous ways as long we have the desire and will to go forward.

When I say that the latest JF-17 Block is in the same category as the F-16, I do this on the basis of a crude and general comparison. In a general sense, both are 4th gen platforms with a similar technological base. When we acquire the F-16 we won't get any quantum leap improvement as opposed to a 5th gen platform for instance. Additionally, as you have stated, an AESA radar is on the cards for the JF-17. Just because we don't have it yet doesn't mean we won't get it. In fact, the JV with China is a guarantee that we will acquire a much improved JF-17 in the near future. It is only a matter of time. Therefore, this point is not a matter of discussion to me personally.
 
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Going for any imported aircraft is going to cost, better the devil you know, than the one you don't. Sorry for the crude analogy, the Blk52+ is a very formidable platform. Kindly do keep in mind, A new platform means new infrastructure, all the way from civil works ( which is the easy part), to training pilots, engineers & technicians.


SU-35 on paper is out of this world. Practically speaking, the availability rate issue plagues every air force from Indonesia, Malaysia, to Algeria. You can blame availability of spares, poor customer service by the Russians, poor preemptive maintenance etc, but the ground reality is the Russians haven't thought this one through. Sorry.

The only reason the Chinese will NOT have this issue, (and do not), is because they have the capability to repair and manufacture a lot of the parts in house.

You are right inducting a new platform is quite a difficult task, especially if the unit numbers are low.



You are comparing apples to oranges, my good friend. Why are you comparing JF17 Blk3? Where is Blk3? Has it started incorporating the new AESA radar? Is is undergoing user trials? Not that we know of.

Having said all of this, as a stop gap measure the F16 Blk52+, as of now is an excellent "defensive" platform for the PAF, TODAY. Tomorrow, InShaAllah, the JF-17 might be even better than the F-16 Blk 52+

Lets hope these 8 open up the way for more, as well as "V" spec upgrades.


Hi,

We are used to the open supply line from china---no questions asked---everything readily available---. That is not going to be the case with russia---.

A glitch here---a glitch there---. And the countries that you gave the examples of---they are a living proof about after sales service----. It might get better with pakistan---or pakistan may use it own ingenuity and utilize its resources to keep things moving.

The predictability factor is up for debate with russia----. With the chinese----it is not a question that needs to be addressed.
 
The most powerful influence in the U.S is cold hard U.S foreign policy interests. The U.S is planning to stay in the region for a while, but without the Pakistan military's full cooperation, that presence would be infeasible in the long-run. Hence the F-16s, which serve as a policy bridge for the U.S.

That exactly is a point of worry. How will the Americans behave when they feel that they don't require Pak cooperation? The Americans are an unpredictable supplier for Pakistan. We can't rely on hardware which even has the remotest possibility of sanctions. I also don't see the Americans cooperating as far as ToT for spares is concerned. Let's not kid ourselves here. The Americans have a proven track record when it comes to applying sanctions to Pakistan.
 
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