Pakistan gave China access to 'stealth' chopper from Bin Laden raid: Report

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

China does not have anything to lose if Pakistan became the next NK, does it?

Actually they do, from a strategic perspective - a viable pro-China Pakistan is far more useful to China as an ally than a Pakistan ala North Korea.

 

[A1Kaid]

Exactly - the US betrays' its ally Pakistan in carrying out an illegal, unilateral raid, despite Pakistan's billions of dollars in losses (far exceeding US aid), tens of thousands of lives lost, and more AQ leaders and members neutralized than any other country, and on top of humiliating and betraying its ally Pakistan, it expects Pakistan not to retaliate ...

What hubris on the part of the US Establishment ...

And Pakistani Government and probably Army betrays it's people...

 

[VCheng]

Once the war, invasion and occupation of Afghanistan was inevitable, this was the best of bad choices ...

So given that it was a choice, what did Pakistan gain? Or is it your contention that the choice was so bad that nothing good came out of it?

 

[Patrician]

One the war, invasion and occupation of Afghanistan was inevitable, this was the best of bad choices ...

The war was inevitable.

The invasion and occupation of Afghanistan was inevitable.

BUT...

The participation of Pakistan in this war was not inevitable.

The extent to which Pakistan bent for the US was not inevitable.

You could have said NO.

..but then your Generals would not have made the money they did through the aid.

...now please don't tell me that cliche of "No proof£ etc.

Surely all that $20bn aid that Uncle Sam has given to your Generals in the past 10 years has gone somewhere.

and guess what? That 'somewhere' lies somewhere in Rawalpindi.

 

[Guest01]

Exactly - the US betrays' its ally Pakistan in carrying out an illegal, unilateral raid, despite Pakistan's billions of dollars in losses (far exceeding US aid), tens of thousands of lives lost, and more AQ leaders and members neutralized than any other country, and on top of humiliating and betraying its ally Pakistan, it expects Pakistan not to retaliate ...

What hubris on the part of the US Establishment ...

Yeah exactly my point. Even after the IED factories and the 1800 Haqqani experiences, the US had no business not telling ISI about the raid. It had to be a joint exercise even if OBL was US's declared enemy no 1 and that too when US found him in a place as obscure as a stone's throw distance fron PMA! Such an average decision making from US and that too with an ally who does not differentiate between good terrorist and bad terrorist and is purportedly fighting the war for itself and not just the US and peace in Afghanistan. And your numbers on the losses to the roads sound really low. US aid has been so miniscule and lately they have not even been reimbursing the army for its maintenance and in fact are raising questions about the mild cost of troops maintenance that Pakistan army had asked for. How dare they not foot the bill!

Pakistan is doing US a favor here by just giving the information about the choppers here to China which is actually giving more aid than US. They should actually give the whole of F-16s and the Orion that the US has agreed to replace against the one that got burnt to China just to get even better.

These Americans are really so thankless!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

bottom line is, the raid was a huge blunder on their part.....symbolically speaking, it was a slap on the face to all the sacrifices Pakistan made.

whether its the fatherless child or widowed wife in a village in FATA, or the nameless faceless Pakistani policeman who got wounded while exchanging gunfire with Khaled Sheikh Mohammad's men prior to his capture and handover (along with the several others who helped capture other AQ leaders and their affiliates who happened to make their way to our country)

when you breach trust, when you forget others sacrifices, when a partnership is one-sided -- you can't call it a functional or proper alliance. It becomes a toxic relationship; and that is where the current bilateral relationship seems to be headed at this juncture.


they wanted their crow-bars and lockpick sets back; they got them back. If the news is correct, then kudos. If the black hawks were so stealth as to evade our radar, then you can imagine we'd love to get our hands on this technology at some point down the line. You arent the only one who likes gadgetry. Spread the love!

 

[Guest01]

Actually they do, from a strategic perspective - a viable pro-China Pakistan is far more useful to China as an ally than a Pakistan ala North Korea.

Yeah, but with the set objective expectations from an ally, how do they stop turning the ally in to another NK. I mean, there is always a shelf life!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Yeah exactly my point. Even after the IED factories and the 1800 Haqqani experiences, the US had no business not telling ISI about the raid.

provide proof that those "IED factories" existed and/or that ISI "tipped off" those people......if you can't do that, keep your beak shut

It had to be a joint exercise even if OBL was US's declared enemy no 1 and that too when US found him in a place as obscure as a stone's throw distance fron PMA! Such an average decision making from US and that too with an ally who does not differentiate between good terrorist and bad terrorist and is purportedly fighting the war for itself and not just the US and peace in Afghanistan.

if he was in Afghanistan (which is confirmed) then it was their blunder to allow him to escape.....as for "good terrorist" and "bad terrorist" --well dont they do the same thing?

if the taleban are terrorists, why are back-channel talks underway -with full backing of the guys at State Dept and Pentagon ?

Pakistan is doing US a favor here by just giving the information about the choppers here to China which is actually giving more aid than US. They should actually give the whole of F-16s and the Orion that the US has agreed to replace against the one that got burnt to China just to get even better.

the Orions will not be replaced, update your knowledge

 

[Patrician]

Actually they do, from a strategic perspective - a viable pro-China Pakistan is far more useful to China as an ally than a Pakistan ala North Korea.

How exactly?

A viable and economically self-reliant Pakistan is always susceptible to say NO when the interests of China and Pakistan do not align.

OTOH, an economically parasitic Pakistan is in no way capable to say NO to China come what may.

China would love it if Pakistan became another NK. It completely obliviates the possiblity of any future Pakistani disagreement on any issue whatsoever.

 

[Guest01]

provide proof that those "IED factories" existed and/or that ISI "tipped off" those people......if you can't do that, keep your beak shut




if he was in Afghanistan (which is confirmed) then it was their blunder to allow him to escape.....as for "good terrorist" and "bad terrorist" --well dont they do the same thing?

if the taleban are terrorists, why are back-channel talks underway -with full backing of the guys at State Dept and Pentagon ?



the Orions will not be replaced, update your knowledge

Ah, the proverbial relativity of crediblity of evidence sir, how does one present the unacceptable? Afterall the earth was flat someday. WTF was Gailileo thinking?

And ouch.. was that a nerve there. Well I am pleased to inform to you sir that I have perfectly functioning human anatomy and not avian. But i could understand your frustration in me. Bloody civilians this side of the border just do not buy propaganda that easy sir. I know that it could be disappointing but it is a stupid Indian thing.

But I will gladly cease to perturb you if you may so desire. Afterall we owe each other some civility.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So given that it was a choice, what did Pakistan gain? Or is it your contention that the choice was so bad that nothing good came out of it?

The choice was bad - what good came out of it?

Pakistan had lost far more economically than it has gained from US aid.

Pakistan is now plagued with levels of terrorism the likes of which it never saw before the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

The US-Pakistan relationship is probably more acrimonious than it has ever been in history, with the US possibly actively supporting elements destabilizing Pakistan.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

It was WE who sent incorrect list.

and it was again WE (by dint of our media) who spotted that out.

...and it was again WE who corrected OUR OWN mistake.

.

the damage was done......you'd be best served to first check, double-check, triple-check your prisons and your back alley-ways before claiming that others are harbouring your criminals...

as it is, your finger-pointing and cries of "ISI plotting against india" thing gets old like the boy who cried wolf.


OBL thing -- well if everything played out the way we are told --yes it's a failure on our part and we also owned up to it. Which is why the DG-ISI offered to resign and was answerable before Parliament.

of course at the same time, it's logical for Pakistan to go after those who allegedly facilitated the raid (some have already been arrested and should be charged with treason)..... rather than informing the Pakistanis --- who would have undoubtedly raided the "compound" on their own and most likely capture the man alive -rather than putting a bullet in his brain and "dumping him at sea"

your indianism prevents you from thinking logically about the broader picture

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The participation of Pakistan in this war was not inevitable.

The extent to which Pakistan bent for the US was not inevitable.

You could have said NO.

With a nascent nuclear capability, and the lessons from Iraq and the hazards of occupation not yet learned, supporting the US was in fact 'inevitable'.

Surely all that $20bn aid that Uncle Sam has given to your Generals in the past 10 years has gone somewhere.

Please read through the US aid sticky in this section to get an answer to your 'where did the US Aid go' question.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

China would love it if Pakistan became another NK. It completely obliviates the possiblity of any future Pakistani disagreement on any issue whatsoever.

Your logic is broken.

North Korea says "No" to us all the time.

We told them not to develop nukes, and we told them to stop causing instability in the Peninsula.

They made us lose face by doing the exact opposite. Then they did it again, by refusing to return to the six-party talks.

Kim Jong-Il, is a "monk with an umbrella", without regard for law or heaven.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How exactly?

A viable and economically self-reliant Pakistan is always susceptible to say NO when the interests of China and Pakistan do not align.

Not really - a viable and self-reliant Pakistan would in fact offer the Chinese an economic as well as a strategic incentive. The Chinese are not 'forcing' Pakistan to take any particular position on geo-political issues. IT just so happens that our interests on certain issues coincide, and Pakistan can serve those mutual interests better as an economically viable and self-reliant nation.