Pakistan gave China access to 'stealth' chopper from Bin Laden raid: Report

[Jango]

the damage was done......you'd be best served to first check, double-check, triple-check your prisons and your back alley-ways before claiming that others are harbouring your criminals...

as it is, your finger-pointing and cries of "ISI plotting against india" thing gets old like the boy who cried wolf.


OBL thing -- well if everything played out the way we are told --yes it's a failure on our part and we also owned up to it. Which is why the DG-ISI offered to resign and was answerable before Parliament. of course at the same time, it's logical for Pakistan to go after those who allegedly facilitated the raid (some have already been arrested and should be charged with treason)..... rather than informing the Pakistanis --- who would have undoubtedly raided the "compound" on their own and most likely capture the man alive -rather than putting a bullet in his brain and "dumping him at sea"

your indianism prevents you from thinking logically about the broader picture

Well now that you have mentioned it, that thing was a total farce, there was absolutely no need for the DG ISI to give a briefing to the parliament.

 

[Patrician]

With a nascent nuclear capability, and the lessons from Iraq and the hazards of occupation not yet learned, supporting the US was in fact 'inevitable'.

So inevitable that you bent so much backwards that broke your own back?

I'm sure you've heard of the anecdote of how the Bush administration made 10 demands to Mushy in the hope that you'd agree to at least 3-4 of them.

Mushy agreed to all 10. Mushy, a conniving General of all people!

..and then you blame Uncle Sam for your naivete?

You did not have the ingenuity to care to check the contents of the bottle of medicine Uncle Sam gave to you.

and tell you what? it wasn't even naivete in the first place. It was that ever elusive desire to gain some 'strategic depth'.

Little did your Generals know that 'Strategic Depth' would gradually translate into 'Strategic Death'.

Please read through the US aid sticky in this section to get an answer to your 'where did the US Aid go' question.

Sure I will if time permits me. On a short note, what conclusion am I supposed to draw from the ubiquitous and oft-repeated statements of your countrymen, citizens and rulers alike, that US aid has done little to benefit you.

 

[Patrician]

Not really - a viable and self-reliant Pakistan would in fact offer the Chinese an economic as well as a strategic incentive. The Chinese are not 'forcing' Pakistan to take any particular position on geo-political issues. IT just so happens that our interests on certain issues coincide, and Pakistan can serve those mutual interests better as an economically viable and self-reliant nation.

...yes, for now.

Tomorrow if by any chance, your two countries' interests do not coincide, an economically self-reliant Pakistan can say 'NO'.

but a Pakistan dependent on China for its very survival will not be able to say 'NO'.

Just like a drug addict cannot say no to a drug dealer.

I'm surprised that you are not able to understand this after your similar association with the US for past 55-60 years or so.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Well now that you have mentioned it, that thing was a total farce, there was absolutely no need for the DG ISI to give a briefing to the parliament.

well it sets a bad 'precedent' when the President of the country writes a column for Washington Post before giving address to the nation he Presides over

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

...yes, for now.

Tomorrow if by any chance, your two countries' interests do not coincide, an economically self-reliant Pakistan can say 'NO'.

but a Pakistan dependent on China for its very survival will not be able to say 'NO'.

Just like a drug addict cannot say no to a drug dealer.

I'm surprised that you are not able to understand this after your similar association with the US for past 55-60 years or so.

Say 'no' to what?

You have to provide an example of an issue that Pakistan is toeing China's line on for the sake of China, before arguing that China would find a self-reliant Pakistan an obstacle to some such extremely important issue.

 

[Patrician]

Say 'no' to what?.

..to acqueiscing to China in any future source of disagreement. Trade deficit related issues, for example.

You have to provide an example of an issue that Pakistan is toeing China's line on for the sake of China, before arguing that China would find a self-reliant Pakistan an obstacle to some such extremely important issue.

Take FTA with China for example.

An FTA with a country that is regarded as the 'Factory of the world'.

What is this if not trade suicide?

FTA with China of all the countries in the world?

Don't you see what it could do to your industry? In fact, it has already started.

Zardari even raised this issue during his last trip to China.

Tomorrow if China grabs you by the ba**s, will you be in any position to say NO?

Hell no!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yeah exactly my point. Even after the IED factories and the 1800 Haqqani experiences, the US had no business not telling ISI about the raid.

The Haqqanis are a different issue, related more to the 'end game' in Afghanistan and Pakistan's lack of confidence in US commitments to 'stay the course' in the region, they have little to do with Pakistan's fight against Al Qaeda, in which Pakistan has neutralized far more of the high level and mid level AQ leadership than any other country, including operational head honchos like KSM and Libbi. Not to mention that Pakistan also provided a key part of the intelligence on OBL's courier which allowed the US to further develop intelligence leading to OBL's location.

As for the IED factories, Pakistan has officially refuted those claims (check out the thread on the topic), while the US has yet to 'officially' provide any evidence supporting those claims, not to mention that those IED facotry claims came about AFTER the OBL raid, so cannot be used as justification for not informing Pakistan about the OBL raid.

It had to be a joint exercise even if OBL was US's declared enemy no 1 and that too when US found him in a place as obscure as a stone's throw distance fron PMA! Such an average decision making from US and that too with an ally who does not differentiate between good terrorist and bad terrorist and is purportedly fighting the war for itself and not just the US and peace in Afghanistan. And your numbers on the losses to the roads sound really low. US aid has been so miniscule and lately they have not even been reimbursing the army for its maintenance and in fact are raising questions about the mild cost of troops maintenance that Pakistan army had asked for. How dare they not foot the bill!

Was there a point you were making in there?

Pakistan is doing US a favor here by just giving the information about the choppers here to China which is actually giving more aid than US. They should actually give the whole of F-16s and the Orion that the US has agreed to replace against the one that got burnt to China just to get even better.

These Americans are really so thankless!

Absolutely!

---------- Post added at 06:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

Take FTA with China for example.

An FTA with a country that is regarded as the 'Factory of the world'.

What is this if not trade suicide?

FTA with China of all the countries in the world?

Don't you see what it could do to your industry?

What makes you think that Pakistan did not want that FTA? Any evidence supporting your claims that Pakistan was forced into it?

 

[fd24]

Guys am i missing out on something?
America violate our country and enter uninvited and leave a heli behind. Do they expect us to call hilary and say " yo Hilary you left a heli behind. Can we gift wrap it and send it back with a box of chocolates?" I think not - you violated - you messed up - what we do with what you left behind is our business so stop crying and get on with it.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So inevitable that you bent so much backwards that broke your own back?

I'm sure you've heard of the anecdote of how the Bush administration made 10 demands to Mushy in the hope that you'd agree to at least 3-4 of them.

Mushy agreed to all 10. Mushy, a conniving General of all people!

That is why they are called 'anecdotes', i.e unverified, and what exactly were those ten demands that Pakistan agreed to and implemented completely?

..and then you blame Uncle Sam for your naivete?

You did not have the ingenuity to care to check the contents of the bottle of medicine Uncle Sam gave to you.

and tell you what? it wasn't even naivete in the first place. It was that ever elusive desire to gain some 'strategic depth'.

Little did your Generals know that 'Strategic Depth' would gradually translate into 'Strategic Death'.

Again, given that the US had not learned the lessons of 'invading and occupying a nation' from Iraq, Pakistan was right to not take a chance that the US would end up attacking Pakistan. But it was by definition the better of two really bad choices, after the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan appeared inevitable.

Sure I will if time permits me. On a short note, what conclusion am I supposed to draw from the ubiquitous and oft-repeated statements of your countrymen, citizens and rulers alike, that US aid has done little to benefit you.

If you can't be bothered to read it, don't make uninformed claims about US aid and what Pakistani generals did or did not 'eat up'.

I gave you a resource that lists the official Pakistani position on US aid, read through it and raise your questions and disagreements there.

 

[Patrician]

What makes you think that Pakistan did not want that FTA? Any evidence supporting your claims that Pakistan was forced into it?

I'm not saying Pakistan was forced into it.

In fact that's the point.

You guys get so emotionally carried away that you cannot see if things could turn against you in the future.

It happened with you in your US relationship.

...and the way you are becoming subservient to the Chinese, it has every chance of happening in the future too.

What else would prompt you to sign an FTA with a country whose dumping practices have wreaked havoc upon the local industries of a multitude of countries if not your practice of getting carried away in the euphoria that China will turn out to be your ultimate saviour?

You're in for a rude shock and it won't be the first time in your international relationships.

 

[VelocuR]

Army denies providing China access to Bin Laden raid chopper


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Army rejected foreign media reports on giving US stealth helicopter access to China, on Monday.

Reacting to a report published in a section of the foreign press, an army spokesman termed it baseless.

The London-based Financial Times, quoting an un-named intelligence source, had claimed that the army had provided access to the US stealth helicopter that had crashed during the Bin Laden raid in Abbottabad.

The army spokesman accused the foreign media of launching a malicious campaign against Pakistan’s security forces and called for a verification of the information based on unnamed officials before publishing it.

 

[Patrician]

That is why they are called 'anecdotes', i.e unverified, and what exactly were those ten demands that Pakistan agreed to and implemented completely?

I know what anecdotes are. What those 10 demands were I do not know, in fact, it's only discussed numerous times in a plethora of Pakistani debates by a large number of participants in the debates.

Your own politicians say that from time to time. I know it because I'm a keen follower of Pakistani news channels and their debate programs.

You are free to check it for yourself.

That is not the point, though. The point is that it is an apt example of how you bent so much and that when it was not even needed.

Again, given that the US had not learned the lessons of 'invading and occupying a nation' from Iraq, Pakistan was right to not take a chance that the US would end up attacking Pakistan. But it was by definition the better of two really bad choices, after the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan appeared inevitable.

You're telling me that a nuclear power cannot guage threats accurately?

That questions your very ability to handle your strategic assets.

How can anyone possibly expect you to handle your strategic assets wisely then?

but that's not the point. The point is that you are yourself accepting that a nuclear-power state is so inept at guaging threats to its security that it can make all kinds of bizzare decisions based on its skewed threat perception.

A superpower threatened and a nuclear power relented? Spinelessly?

...and then you blame the superpower for being high-handed? As I see it, you are acting plain stupid. The US was merely being astute.

 

[iPhone]

This thread is classic. Indians are more upset over Pakistan having China look at the US copter than the Americans. lol. Shah se taiz Shah ke ghulam.

 

[S10]

Too bad if you think the US has been grounded. Wake up soon. They aint going anywhere and you know it.

All powers wither away and a new one takes its place. It happened to Spain, then Britain, and it will happen to United States. It's unfortunate you can't accept reality.

 

[Pak_Sher]

There is no truth to the story and it is propoganda by NYT and other anti-Pakistan newspapers.