Pakistan-China Joint Air Force Exercise "Shaheen-IX 2020"

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Paf has handled worst engines than the J10 engine---. So---if Paf is saaying so---it is an excuse.

As for F35---an average F-35 pilots will smash all 4th gen aircraft to kingdom come---and that is by default of the technology and the capabilities of that aircraft to where it has been developed to this date.

The 5th gen are in a league of their own---.

As for the indians claiming their aircraft to do something special---yes they can---they set up Paf for feb 27th---the setup was to gain access to the Rafale without a public cry---so they succeeded in their endeavor---.

Accepting that they will have to manage despite whatever the engine limitations, do you think the PAF should go for the J-10 or the J-31?

Maybe the PAF is waiting to see if the J-31 will be picked as the PLANAF carrier fighter, so the Chinese government will shoulder most of the development costs.

Commonality of Engines with the JF-17 and a potentially large radar with a lower RCS, should make the J-31 competitive with any thing the IAF is planning on fielding (including the F-18E/F Block III).

 

[siegecrossbow]

Accepting that they will have to manage despite whatever the engine limitations, do you think the PAF should go for the J-10 or the J-31?

Maybe the PAF is waiting to see if the J-31 will be picked as the PLANAF carrier fighter, so the Chinese government will shoulder most of the development costs.

Commonality of Engines with the JF-17 and a potentially large radar with a lower RCS, should make the J-31 competitive with any thing the IAF is planning on fielding (including the F-18E/F Block III).

Waiting for a Fifth gen platform is ideal. However, the real question is whether Pakistan is willing to wait a decade or possibly more for it.

 

[FuturePAF]

Waiting for a Fifth gen platform is ideal. However, the real question is whether Pakistan is willing to wait a decade or possibly more for it.

If the Chinese commit to the J-31 for their navy, then Pakistan should signup to get 36 of those planes. The Chinese know that engines are the limitation, and if they get the WS-19 right, they can win more orders for the J-31 and the JF-17, especially to countries like Venezuela, which can pay in oil. The J-10 has reached its design limit, and it doesn’t really have a future. RCS can’t really be reduced.

Even an underpowered J-31, still has a reduced RCS and room for improvements to the design. It will take pilots a few years to get trained up in the J-31/J-35 (whatever the final name will be), in the mean time, hopefully the Chinese can get the engine right.

The F-14 started out with problematic engines, but the US Navy kept going, and once the new engines were ready, the pilots were trained up and lost no time using the Bird all throughout the 80s and 90s.

 

[mingle]

Pakistan-China Joint Air Force Exercise "Shaheen-IX 2020"

Like US does in Europe, it could be that in future PLAAF do so many "exercises" and "deployments" that J-10s are stationed in Pakistan by default. Avoids PR hassle of PLAAF having "bases" in Pakistan. Hard to say without qualifying size, could even be Y-20 transport looking at shape and...

defence.pk

He meant PLAAF can keep her planes or rotate them at Pak and China in name of exercise can save diplomatic hassle to Pakistan having Chinese base or deployment like US does in EU some are permanent but some are just rotations

 

[Xone]

J-10C, J-11B fighter jets shine in just-concluded China-Pakistan air exercises - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

CHINA / MILITARY
J-10C, J-11B fighter jets shine in just-concluded China-Pakistan air exercises
By Liu XuanzunPublished: Jan 04, 2021 11:37 PM

A J-10 fighter jet attached to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command takes off during a flight training exercise under unfavorable meteorology conditions in mid August, 2020.Photo:China Military

The recently concluded China-Pakistan air exercises benefited both sides, as Chinese pilots could learn from their Pakistani counterparts' maneuvers and experiences, and China's J-10C and J-11B fighter jets could be used to simulate India's Rafale and Su-30 fighter jets in mock battles, Chinese analysts said on Monday.

With the last Y-20 transport aircraft carrying Chinese troops returning to China from Pakistan recently, the Shaheen-IX joint air exercises between China and Pakistan ended successfully, China Central Television (CCTV) reported on Saturday.

The joint exercises started on December 7 in Pakistan and lasted about 20 days, with China sending warplanes including J-10C, J-11B fighter jets, KJ-500 early warning aircraft and Y-8 electronic warfare aircraft, and Pakistan sending warplanes including the JF-17 and Mirage III fighter jets, according to the CCTV report.

The J-10C and J-11B are very suitable to simulate India's fighter jets in mock battles, Fu Qianshao, a Chinese military aviation expert, told the Global Times on Monday.

Many aspects of the J-10C mid-sized fighter jet, including the size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation and weapon systems and overall combat capability, are comparable to the France-made Rafale, a type of fighter jet in service with the Indian Air Force, Fu said, noting that the J-11B heavy fighter jet has very similar appearance with India's Su-30 fighter jet but with superior avionics system.

The deployment of Chinese special mission aircraft like early warning aircraft and electronic warfare aircraft would contribute to the improvement of joint operations in an integrated combat system, Fu said.

Air forces from both sides focused on large scale confrontation, including large scale aerial battles and use of forces in mass and close-quarters aerial support, CCTV said, noting that more than 200 sorties were conducted by both sides, as both forces' combat capabilities were boosted in learning from each other.

Chinese pilots could learn from the aggressive maneuvers and rich experiences of Pakistani pilots, Fu said.

"Unlike previous Shaheen series exercises, this time we comprehensively deployed aviation forces and paratroopers, and added real combat-oriented training courses like maritime training for the first time," said Ding Yuanfang, a Chinese Air Force deputy brigade commander, on CCTV.

Both sides also deployed special operation units, and the Chinese Naval Aviation also sent warplanes to the drills, CCTV reported.

Fu said that the Chinese Naval Aviation had not frequently sent warplanes to joint exercises with a foreign country, but it has been increasing training intensity and changing its training model in recent years.

Participating in the Shaheen-IX exercises was a great chance for the Chinese Naval Aviation to learn from Pakistan forces and improve its combat capabilities, Fu said.

 

[MastanKhan]

Accepting that they will have to manage despite whatever the engine limitations, do you think the PAF should go for the J-10 or the J-31?

Maybe the PAF is waiting to see if the J-31 will be picked as the PLANAF carrier fighter, so the Chinese government will shoulder most of the development costs.

Commonality of Engines with the JF-17 and a potentially large radar with a lower RCS, should make the J-31 competitive with any thing the IAF is planning on fielding (including the F-18E/F Block III).

Hi,

Paf should stay with the 4th / 4.5 gen aircraft for as long as they can---as long as the opponent stays in the same category.

The 5th gen competition puts the fight into a REALM OF THE UNKNOWN---.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Paf should stay with the 4th / 4.5 gen aircraft for as long as they can---as long as the opponent stays in the same category.

The 5th gen competition puts the fight into a REALM OF THE UNKNOWN---.

You have a point there, and the J-10 can be bought now; with a few key upgrades to keep up with the Rafale. The possibility of J-10 “reinforcements” in war time would be the biggest selling point. Perhaps reviving the deal for 36 J-10s, now that it is a sufficiently mature platform isn’t such a bad idea.

 

[m52k85]

Hi,

Paf should stay with the 4th / 4.5 gen aircraft for as long as they can---as long as the opponent stays in the same category.

The 5th gen competition puts the fight into a REALM OF THE UNKNOWN---.

Agreed, it would be foolish for PAF to be the first to introduce 5th gen in the Pak-Ind equation. It will give the perfect excuse for uncle Sam to circumvent S-400 based CAATSA and clear F-35s for India. Dangerous and expensive business.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

PAF will have to be satisfied with the reliability of the J-10’s engine, before considering a purchase. Some efforts will also need to be made to reduce the RCS of the J-10 and add the best Avionics, AESA, EW (including towed decoy), and weapons China will allow to be exported.

It would have to do all this; basically match the capabilities of the F-16 Block 72, for the PAF to finally close the door on the F-16 saga. ...

I don't know where this idea came from that J-10 is somehow not good enough for PAF. Has the J-10 failed in anything? Has the program ever been cancelled or even halted? They have at least 3 Blocks of this medium weight fighter so far.

PAF wants all the high-tech stuff from China but China is not going to hand over their main techs when the Americans are permanently stationed in PAF baby sitting the F-16s. PAF excuses are getting lame and tiresome.

 

[Beast]

I don't know where this idea came from that J-10 is somehow not good enough for PAF. Has the J-10 failed in anything? Has the program ever been cancelled or even halted? They have at least 3 Blocks of this medium weight fighter so far.

PAF wants all the high-tech stuff from China but China is not going to hand over their main techs when the Americans are permanently stationed in PAF baby sitting the F-16s. PAF excuses are getting lame and tiresome.

Pakistan shall throw out the american. Their presence is a sign of Pakistan not able to exert it's sovereignty in it's own airbase. Forget about F-16 support, Pakistan can continue the operation of it with China support.

 

[MastanKhan]

You have a point there, and the J-10 can be bought now; with a few key upgrades to keep up with the Rafale. The possibility of J-10 “reinforcements” in war time would be the biggest selling point. Perhaps reviving the deal for 36 J-10s, now that it is a sufficiently mature platform isn’t such a bad idea.

Hi,

Re-enforcements during wartime of a new frontline equipment is a fallacy nowadays---. You have to have the equipment in your YARD---first to learn to operate it and then use it operationally.

If you don't have the equipment in peacetime---it ain't coming to you in a timely manner during a conflict---.

Think of it this way---why do people not start a savings account on the day they need it---why do they start it years ago---?

 

[MastanKhan]

Waiting for a Fifth gen platform is ideal. However, the real question is whether Pakistan is willing to wait a decade or possibly more for it.

Hi,

You buy weapons not when when you want to but when the enemy makes you buy them---.

 

[TNT]

If we buy J10s, it can take more of the F16 role. This will reduce the work load on F16s and reduce its usage and increase its lifespan. We may never get anymore F16s, so better extend life of current ones for as long as possible.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Re-enforcements during wartime of a new frontline equipment is a fallacy nowadays---. You have to have the equipment in your YARD---first to learn to operate it and then use it operationally.

If you don't have the equipment in peacetime---it ain't coming to you in a timely manner during a conflict---.

Think of it this way---why do people not start a savings account on the day they need it---why do they start it years ago---?

All of the J-10 would not be “reinforcements”, but considering our 2.5 pilots/aircraft, if the PAF eventually reached 72 J-10s it could lease/borrow more planes from China during heightened tensions, in a just in case posture. The Chinese could also sell replacement jets for wartime losses, similar to the US resupply during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war.

“Reinforcements“ could also mean PLAAF deployments of a few squadrons in the guise of an exercise during heightened tensions. Although this is not something that should be taken for granted or expected. (Considering India has called China its primary enemy, the Chinese maybe motivated on their own to participate)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1346812159699734529

 

[MastanKhan]

All of the J-10 would not be “reinforcements”, but considering our 2.5 pilots/aircraft, if the PAF eventually reached 72 J-10s it could lease/borrow more planes from China during heightened tensions, in a just in case posture. The Chinese could also sell replacement jets for wartime losses, similar to the US resupply during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war.

“Reinforcements“ could also mean PLAAF deployments of a few squadrons in the guise of an exercise during heightened tensions. Although this is not something that should be taken for granted or expected. (Considering India has called China its primary enemy, the Chinese maybe motivated on their own to participate)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1346812159699734529

Hi,

Modern aircraft are not jump into the cockpit and fly away type of aircraft---.

You would need at least a minimum of 5 years for a JF17 pilot to switch over and excel as a J10 pilot---.