Pakistan Air Force Operation Swift Retort l Indian Military targets in gun-sight of PAF

[GriffinsRule]

I am thinking of another possibility. The PAF were asked just to show the capability of striking indian targets but not to cause any substantial damage.
So they may not have placed any fuse in the H-4 SOW they used in this strike? Thats why no detonation. Because an H-4 SOW is pretty heavy weapon and detonation within 100 meter of target had also caused substatioal damage.

Except we have DG ISPR on record as mocking the Indians about the damage caused to the fuses in their arm depot targeted by PAF. Stop trying to come up with excuses for Indian propoganda.

 

[airmarshal]

I remember how targeting pod and weapon camera footages were shown by US military in Iraq wars. Just recently, how Russians did the same in Syria. This was made sure it reached the world media within hours. This leaves an impact on the adversary and the audience at a large.

PAF demonstration in this aspect lacks credibility. In all honesty, even genuine well wishers like us can raise serious question why after six months?

Why could not PAF boldly come out and say we shot down SU-30 deep inside Indian controlled territory? If we were afraid US would come after us, the statement from US State Department that US end user agreements do not permit US to disclose nature and scenario in which to use US supplied weapons clearly stated the opposite. This was in response to an Indian questioner. In fact, it looks to me hearing that statement, that the US took pride that a US weapon shot down top of the line, most modern Russian jet.

 

[Safriz]

I remember how targeting pod and weapon camera footages were shown by US military in Iraq wars. Just recently, how Russians did the same in Syria. This was made sure it reached the world media within hours. This leaves an impact on the adversary and the audience at a large.

PAF demonstration in this aspect lacks credibility. In all honesty, even genuine well wishers like us can raise serious question why after six months?

Why could not PAF boldly come out and say we shot down SU-30 deep inside Indian controlled territory? If we were afraid US would come after us, the statement from US State Department that US end user agreements do not permit US to disclose nature and scenario in which to use US supplied weapons clearly stated the opposite. This was in response to an Indian questioner. In fact, it looks to me hearing that statement, that the US took pride that a US weapon shot down top of the line, most modern Russian jet.

USA and Russia dont face an adversary like India for whom lying is kosher.
PAF had to let them lie and then show the proof.
I say good tactics.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Sun Tzu says "Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak. If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant."

 

[SQ8]

The misspells are a perrenial problem of having stubby fingers and typing on a phone which is how I do things. Go beyond the basics and respond with something concrete. As to whiskey being a devout muslim I prefer to get my highs on orange ade.
Regards
A

I attribute a large portion of my reduced involvement and less focused analysis to accessing pdf exclusively through cellular browsers.

Got it. I am missing journal for CM. There was study about the same but, what's your opinion on this. Deployment Counter Measure?

They are difficult to defeat since they actually see the aircraft.

The best countermeasures are to simply not engage in WVr and kill from BVR.

 

[Falcon26]

I remember how targeting pod and weapon camera footages were shown by US military in Iraq wars. Just recently, how Russians did the same in Syria. This was made sure it reached the world media within hours. This leaves an impact on the adversary and the audience at a large.

PAF demonstration in this aspect lacks credibility. In all honesty, even genuine well wishers like us can raise serious question why after six months?

Why could not PAF boldly come out and say we shot down SU-30 deep inside Indian controlled territory? If we were afraid US would come after us, the statement from US State Department that US end user agreements do not permit US to disclose nature and scenario in which to use US supplied weapons clearly stated the opposite. This was in response to an Indian questioner. In fact, it looks to me hearing that statement, that the US took pride that a US weapon shot down top of the line, most modern Russian jet.

I have said at the time that Pakistan lost the media war. It’s military adheres to outdated and irrelevant communication strategy and it almost allowed the enemy to gain on the media waves what it couldn’t on the battlefield. OSINT & credible media organizations that backed Pakistan’s core claims is the only reason why Pakistan’s narrative ultimately prevailed. Dragging defeat from the jaws of victory is a rare Pakistani speciality.

 

[Usama Ahmed 86]

Hi,

Its amazing how PAF is being blamed for Modi's electoral win.
Moderators, advisors and senior members are talking about Indian attack with shock and awe for us. I would like to understand what has changed now which makes India confident/likely to launch missile atacks followed by aerial strikes and then ground invasion of AJK? The required weapons like cruise missiles and SOW have been in the mix for some time now, do they have something new in regards to offensive or defensive capability? Or is this just a change of mindset?

Regards,

 

[DrWatson775]

You have written a long and verbose diatribe with no substance, one that almost reminds me of another poster who always responds to facts with rhetoric and whom I assidupusly ignore. I am not in the habit of trading rhetoric with rhetoric. I simply do not have the time, and the time I spend here is time away from my really busy schedule so I would rather learn and teach rather than exchanging verbosity.
So let me give to you my scenario of why it was sensible to let those planes go than engage and destroy them.
A. In war you create a narrative in accordance with the international norms of rules of engagement.
B. If you engage the enemy in air you need to do so within your borders for it not to be an aggressive maneouvre. You may remember also at sea that we caused one of their latest subs to surface and escorted it out of our waters.
C. There is another Mig 21 that was destroyed and its carcass landed in Badgam at roughly 9:27am which was the time all the action was taking place. The cause according to IAF was technical malfunction(and I say my foot!) You will notice that PAF did not claim that kill in spite of the fact that it is easy to do so and it is too much lf a coincidence for it to have crashed at the same time when all the action was taking place. The matter is widely reported in Indian Media. PAF also specifically stayed away from claiming the fratricide of their helicopter right from the word go instead of claiming it as a kill. Those 2 are recorded in Indian media so can be checked by anyone.
D. PAF only claimed 2 kills as they were recorded as being in Pakistani air space.
E. The ground action was an aggressive move but was in response to a similar move by IAF. PAF took the precaution to guide the ammo to the site it wanted to hit and then INTENTIONALLY let it wear away so it landed in the grounds rather than hit the actual target. It had been established earlier that the IAF strike fell in no man's land and did not cause any loss of human life( we consider the loss of our 4 trees and a crow to be serious matter none the less). Actual attack that day could have caused the Indian army 10000 lives.
If you look at all the facts presented above you see a trend emerging.
A. Response was daring and befitting but not excessive.
B. Both planes were engaged in our air space conducting aggressive maneouvres and therefore we were justified.
You may notice that the IAF did not raise a hue and cry about their losses in spite of it stinging them badly. So we slapped them hard. But next we raised the olive branch by deciding in our Parlianment that we will return their air man to them. I think it was coup de grace. You won more hearts and minds with that one move than all your wailing about the thousand issues that you face.
At the same time you have not allowed your adversary the one excuse that he would have needed to have ostracized you in international media where most wars of the 21st century have been fought. May I humbly also point out that there has NEVER been a war between the Nuclear armed nations. It is my thinking that in such a war the Nukes will be resorted to as first line of attack rather than wait for the enemy to respond. A NUCLEAR WAR is a Zero sum game as it will lead to MAD Awhich defeats the very purpose of waging war. With more than a 100 Nuke weapons on each side the south East Asia will soon be charred beyond recognition and 1/5th of the population of our planet 2ill die a miserable death. This needs to be avoided by not provoking each other.
Now if you have not understood why it was so important not to have exceeded your response to THEIR aggression and throw it at their faces (look at the FATF fiasco hanging on our heads as just one example if you cannot see the economic disaster we are already facing without indulging in a war) then you will never understand. Those 7 planes(and I will still maintain 6) were very importantly left behind for furtherance of our narrative as a peace loving nation which will not hesitate to respond to any aggression but will still hold on to reason.
Lastly please read what Islam tells you to do in case of taking revenge and you will understand the beauty as well as the logic of this response and why it was important to do so.
A

Excellent post
One can set the narrative by lobbying but more so by ones actions.
I think PAFs response was very balanced and what was needed.
The position Pakistan is in internationally as a nation is precarious at best (allegations of nuclear proliferation, allegations of terrorism, binLaden found here, economic situation etc) and going all gung ho was not going to help us at all. It was also not going to help us buy any Western arms/fighters/systems if we demonstrate the we were going to use them in a belligerent manner - if it is all out war, that is a different matter.

there must be .. how did pilot and control room staff confirm that impact was successful?



I don't get it ... they intrude in our country.. we let em go unharmed and next day when we respond we hit whre it mattered but we can't tell that to world with proof... we let 7 locked jets go away .. and we release Abhi-none-done before Modi's election who used this Balakot fiasco for his election success and our silence helped him.. we should be offensive (we have every right to be so) still our spineless political leadership is hiding this as a state secret...

The leadership has the whole chessboard in front of them. We can see a couple or more pieces. Patience.

 

[araz]

the cost of gaining that experience is way too high. they will war game it and calculate the opportunity costs
they are in true sense cold nose traders.
hence in my opinion they wont take an economic hit just for the sake of becoming war veterans.

Your last two posts are gems to be preserved and read by each and every lover of the sentiment that"This or that nation will come to our help in case of war". The logical question is why they should come to our help? The only plausible answer could be their investment in CPEC. So what happens if there is war between Indo pak? The likelihood is a major nuclear exchange with repercussions for the whole region including China.
So a loss of 45 Billion against a loss of 100s of billions, stoppage of trade, due to infrastructure damamge and possible loss of 1/3 to 1/2 population. No sane nation will want that. They have gort a trillion dollars worth of trade without CPEC. What is 45 billion loss to them? PAKISTAN IS ALONE IN THIS WAR and this should be understood by each and everyone.
A

 

[aliyusuf]

They have gort a trillion dollars worth of trade without CPEC. What is 45 billion loss to them?

The 45 billion is just part of the OBOR initiative. That part will help in a big way to insure that they maintain the trillions of dollars of trade and Chinese economic ascendancy in the decades to come. The US/West sees and recognizes that. The moves and maneuverings of today are for the games to be played tomorrow. So, whether Pakistan is alone or not is a perception based on interpretation and also somewhat on opinion. A huge military presence is being maintained at Aksai Chin near Daulat Beg Oldi.

 

[araz]

The 45 billion is just part of the OBOR initiative. That part will help in a big way to insure that they maintain the trillions of dollars of trade and Chinese economic ascendancy in the decades to come. The US/West sees and recognizes that. The moves and maneuverings of today are for the games to be played tomorrow. So, whether Pakistan is alone or not is a perception based on interpretation and also somewhat on opinion. A huge military presence is being maintained at Aksai Chin near Daulat Beg Oldi.

You maybe right. Let us agree to disagree and move on. I do not want to open up with my experience with the Chinese and indeed the Europeans but needless to say they do not think like us.
A

 

[tman786]

Try posting on Indian forums instead of crying here

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Off Topic.
Not meaning to be disrespectful but wish to appeal to all Mods and Seniors here.......
More than 200 posts but not even one allowed for Indians in this Forum. Abuses, trolling is permitted but Indian's posts are not. Why so insecure Sir? You have permitted people from all nationalities to join PDF but what is the point if voices that don't agree to a certain narrative are muted and members are banned. Till few months back it used to generate some excellent contents but now collectively we are reducing it to trash. Please review your policies Sir and allow some freedom of thoughts (equally to all).
Regards.

Indian defense forums dont even allow Pakistanis to POST even self introduction and you are talking about allowing Indians running their piss drunk mouth here?

 

[SIPRA]

Off Topic.
Not meaning to be disrespectful but wish to appeal to all Mods and Seniors here.......
More than 200 posts but not even one allowed for Indians in this Forum. Abuses, trolling is permitted but Indian's posts are not. Why so insecure Sir? You have permitted people from all nationalities to join PDF but what is the point if voices that don't agree to a certain narrative are muted and members are banned. Till few months back it used to generate some excellent contents but now collectively we are reducing it to trash. Please review your policies Sir and allow some freedom of thoughts (equally to all).
Regards.

India and Pakistan are virtually in a state of war. In such circumstances, decent and rational communication, between warring parties, becomes close to impossible. This ban is a consequence of this state of affairs.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

So what the Indian troll army is saying about this footage? The likes of Raj47 and Major Gaurav. Lol

What is their excuse?