PAF ‘OPS SWIFT RETORT’ and the effectiveness of air power

[Arsalan 345]

i think the decision of not targeting indian military installations was a bad move.we still think that they will stay silent for the next 5 years but reality is far bitter.i don't want to criticize paf because india managed to enter in our territory during shift change and there were very few cap fighters as compared to attacking indian fighters.it is a lesson to learn.people on tv shows and on media thought that we don't need long range sams just because we have nuclear weapon.now all these people realize that we really need sams,more cover against intruding iaf jets.policy of making more missiles to attack india and not defending country with sams and anti ballistic missile was wrong and we finally realized our mistake.we did well on 27 feb .hit them hard next time.be brave be strong.war will come anyway.our response on feb 27 has nothing to do with another indian attack.india taste blood.it intruded deep in our territory and it will do it again.people think that avoiding targets by paf on feb 27 allowed india to de escalate.reverse is true.india will attack and is planning to attack pakistan again.they know everything about our weak air defence systems.we made massive mistake by neglecting air defence.

 

[CriticalThought]

@Hellfire

The bigger they are the harder they fall. Eh?



Had pointed it out long ago. As long as Pakistan does not make its own sensors and equipment, it has no expertise in this field. So the forces can only use what others think is fine for Pakistan's needs and not what Pakistan actually needs. That's why India started a massive indigenisation program since the 80s and we are reaping the benefits now.

The army operates the Samyukta and more recently Himshakti systems. The navy operates tech developed under Project SANGRAHA. And the air force operates all indigenous EW suites in the Mig-29 and MKI, and similar systems in dedicated EW aircraft.

Yep, and then Modi cried "Agar desh main Rafale hota...etc etc".

Such naval confontration will only come if they block our trade or related event , and that equals to the trade of the glorious communist republic of China as well and will bring the might of the PLAN and give it the excuse to set up base in the Indian ocean specifically the Arabian sea

Such naval confrontation can easily happen through a salvo fired at Bholari from submarine. Or an attack on a lone vessel. There are any number of possibilities.

 

[Army research]

Yep, and then Modi cried "Agar desh main Rafale hota...etc etc".



Such naval confrontation can easily happen through a salvo fired at Bholari from submarine. Or an attack on a lone vessel. There are any number of possibilities.

India escalating naval front means brining in PLAN , a lot of Chinese shipments go through this area , it will trigger international geopolitics, plus even the Arabs will get pissed since we import a lot of oil ,
India is now launching a full proxy and media war ( quite effectively too ) while it is going on full armaments program for it's forces ( and watching us crumble financially ), now they are waiting for the moment are internal organs are so severely weekend that a single blow could bring down the entire rotten structure,
Right now the war is a war of narrative and will , both we lack

 

[Cash GK]

Hi,

Yeah I have---. I have a Glock 17---a SW AR10 and a BRNO .270---. Before that had a Valmet M76.

Oh---I also have a Diana .22 Magnum air rifle.

At my age---I can still shoot 2 out of 5 rds touching each other at 100 yds without a scope---.

You don't like my posts---okay---no problem---why don't you write something---. It is an open forum---. Writing is the best revenge---.

You may not like what I write---and that is your choice---. I write what I know---.

There are many here who don't like me---there are many here who like me---we agree and we disagree---we get mad at each other---but we keep moving forward---.



Hi,

Perfect my foot---. The ACM was happy with what he had done---if it was not for the reaction of the public and the juniors---he was satisfied.

The majority world is shocked at india's incompetence---. The americans and israelis knew what pakistan had---and the Paf gave them the details by showing off---.

Read this posts--- Today at 4:02 PM#30 ---and there are others like this one---.

We gave away our secrets for nothing---just for a little show & pomp---.

In my family kids born with guns so dont tell me these thing..it was not for you..i misquoted you with other guy.. I stared moving in ghq offices when I was kid.. i have two shuda in my family..lets come to the point ...Indian mentality if they slap you once you have to slap twice other wise they will ripped you apart...second most important what tech and weapon we have tomorrow they will be old and replaced with new tech..why your army is running war colleges . Answer is to develop new methods of wars...my point is nations always do invent and make new things. ..what we achieved that we gave strong message we are not sitting duck..what we did 27 , 28, 29, that was man job....those three days made us strong..after this all Indian started proxy war..they found they can not win in direct war. Proxy happens in nations..I will prefer die to hug my death as brave men rather I die cowerd reasoning that my enemy will know about my teach and weapons and my secret will be disclosed..nuclear powers dont fight direct wars.. even they want but world will not allow you.. because 5 nukes are enough to unbalanced life on earth.. super powers are making sure no fight among nuclear powers.. those who knows the reality they play open and aggressive.. I hope you will understand political part of this conversation.

 

[ziaulislam]

i think the decision of not targeting indian military installations was a bad move.we still think that they will stay silent for the next 5 years but reality is far bitter.i don't want to criticize paf because india managed to enter in our territory during shift change and there were very few cap fighters as compared to attacking indian fighters.it is a lesson to learn.people on tv shows and on media thought that we don't need long range sams just because we have nuclear weapon.now all these people realize that we really need sams,more cover against intruding iaf jets.policy of making more missiles to attack india and not defending country with sams and anti ballistic missile was wrong and we finally realized our mistake.we did well on 27 feb .hit them hard next time.be brave be strong.war will come anyway.our response on feb 27 has nothing to do with another indian attack.india taste blood.it intruded deep in our territory and it will do it again.people think that avoiding targets by paf on feb 27 allowed india to de escalate.reverse is true.india will attack and is planning to attack pakistan again.they know everything about our weak air defence systems.we made massive mistake by neglecting air defence.

Some people dont know what SOWs are and dont grasp simple physics..its simple physics that a Indian fighter doing a routine flight over IOK can dash And be in Pakistani territory in under a minute..thus any such thing as absolute interception is simply IMPOSSIBLE

SOW weapons means that by staying inside IOK fighters can drop bombs that can travel all the way into KPK. Balajot is only 49km from IOK..a SOW has a minimum range of 50-60km. Spice 2000 advertised a range of 100km(their youtube official video)

What would you have done SAMs to intercept fighters in indian territory ??.. Also you would have to bring sams close enough to be hit by arterllery fire(~40km)

Very long range SAMs at >60km are not as effective anyway

Bottom line
Indka launched a SOW strike..both countries can do it for the foreseeable future no matter how many SAMs are added ..

When it comes to SAMs..if there is an option to choose(due to limited resources) every country will choose fighter due to it's flexibility and multipurpose use unless it lacks the man power to use it than SAM will be the choice

a fighter jet even flying subsonic can enter Pakistan territory from airbases in IOK under 6minutes ..even CAP in air will have problem catching them everytime, forget about a scramble

I am no expert but this is physics

Distance between srinagar and Azad Kashmir 88km
Speed of sound at 30,00 feet 1100km
Distance covered at subsonic speed per minute 18km
Time to reach from Srinagar to Azad Kashmir 4 minutes

 

[MastanKhan]

In my family kids born with guns so dont tell me these thing..it was not for you..i misquoted you with other guy.. I stared moving in ghq offices when I was kid.. i have two shuda in my family..lets come to the point ...Indian mentality if they slap you once you have to slap twice other wise they will ripped you apart...second most important what tech and weapon we have tomorrow they will be old and replaced with new tech..why your army is running war colleges . Answer is to develop new methods of wars...my point is nations always do invent and make new things. ..what we achieved that we gave strong message we are not sitting duck..what we did 27 , 28, 29, that was man job....those three days made us strong..after this all Indian started proxy war..they found they can not win in direct war. Proxy happens in nations..I will prefer die to hug my death as brave men rather I die cowerd reasoning that my enemy will know about my teach and weapons and my secret will be disclosed..nuclear powers dont fight direct wars.. even they want but world will not allow you.. because 5 nukes are enough to unbalanced life on earth.. super powers are making sure no fight among nuclear powers.. those who knows the reality they play open and aggressive.. I hope you will understand political part of this conversation.

Hi,

I understand---.

The point MK is making is that when we had the chance to "mow through them like a hot knife through butter" we didn't have the balls to do so. Not now, not in 65 and in fact, never. Every chance we get, we surrender it. Right now we let Modi win when we could have severely damaged his campaign. We let the MKIs go. We let the sub go. No self-respecting nation would have done these blunders.

@MastanKhan thank you for your analysis.

So, basically, all Pakistan can do is keep defending while it gets chipped off bit by bit. East Pakistan, Siachin, TTP, BLA, MQM, bit by bit, in the long term, the only conclusion is, Pakistan will be chipped away. There is no reposte.

Hi,

For reason I have stated---being prepared and hitting back the first night ie the 26th and doing the most damage would have been the best option---.

Because you could always blame it on the knee jerk reaction---uncertainty---or any other excuse that you could come up with---. Like we did not know what to do---they kept coming and we kept reacting---they threatened to attack us---we thought they would attack with two aircraft---but they sent in 26---( the number of aircraft coming towards Bahawalpur---.

 

[HawkEye27]

Hi,

I understand---.



Hi,

For reason I have stated---being prepared and hitting back the first night ie the 26th and doing the most damage would have been the best option---.

Because you could always blame it on the knee jerk reaction---uncertainty---or any other excuse that you could come up with---. Like we did not know what to do---they kept coming and we kept reacting---they threatened to attack us---we thought they would attack with two aircraft---but they sent in 26---( the number of aircraft coming towards Bahawalpur---.

The brass in ops room are not kids that will go with knee jerk reaction. Had we struck 7-8 IAF bases at 5AM on 26th finding it later that we fell into Indian trap. The whole world terming us aggressors as Indians would have denied the airstrikes since they just killed a crow.

Growup man!!!

Here is the situation. Pakistan doesn't have semi-conductor manufacturing. Consequently, PAF has zero knowledge and expertise of sensor manufacturing. They do not understand the state of the art in the field. Which means they don't even understand the extent of French capability. They cannot make a good judgement call on characteristics such as component density, the semi-conductor band gap, power efficiency etc. Without knowing the hardware, they will assume characteristics such as radar temperature that go into computations of radar performance.

Next, Pakistan has no AESA radar manufacturing facility. This means PAF has zero knowledge about the subtlety of AESA characteristics in state of the art systems. How many T/R modules can be fit in a given space? What types of beams can be formed and independently controlled? They may have experience with Chinese systems, but what is the state of the art? Without intimate knowledge in this area, tactics such beaming, exploiting the radar notch become suspect.

Pakistan has not much research into detection algorithms. Maybe some at NUST but certainly not world beating. Today there is a huge body of research that looks at non-Gaussian characteristics of radar response. And partners of Dassault hold extensive IP in this area. They literally define the state of the art.

Here is what PAF us actually capable of. It buys electronics off the shelf and is given a manual detailing capabilities. In order to maintain manufacturer warranties and agreements, it must operate them within specified parameters. They develop their tactics on top of that and are limited in what they achieve as a result. Understand this: PAF is only capable of achieving what its suppliers allow it to achieve. No more and no less.

With Rafale, Dassault's reputation is at stake. It will do everything to guarantee its success against PAF. It has much deeper relationships with suppliers like SAAB. Its engineers understand SAAB systems better than PAF.

This is what PAF is really up against.

You are comparing PAF directly with France??? Come on buddy!!!

We have comparision with India here. They are French Customers and we Chinese.

Both China and France are doing good with Electronics. So it now depends how the customers take advantage of their off the shelf toys.

Using hi tech vocabulary does not makes an argument. Its simple business, French want to sell their stuff to everyone. Whereas Chinese are still reserve in these things. So we may get hand on what Rafale holds but India will have a tough time trying to enter the Chinese tech.

 

[1Paki$tani]

Indian Army commanders left Brigade HQ ‘minutes before’ PAF bomb fell in compound 27 Feb
Pakistan has claimed bomb was dropped near Brigade HQ in Rajouri to show its capability. India believes PAF actually planned to hit the facility.
SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP Updated: 27 May, 2019 10:07 am IST

Northern Army Commander Lt. Gen. Ranbir Singh had the visited troops along LoC in Rajouri Sector on February 27. | Twitter: @NorthernComd_IA
Text Size:





New Delhi: When Pakistan Air Force fighter jets dropped a bomb near an Indian defence installation in Jammu and Kashmir on 27 February — a day after the Balakot strike by the Indian Air Force — Islamabad claimed that this was done to display its capability and not target the Indian military.

The H-4 Stand-Off Weapon, a precision-guided glide bomb, dropped by the PAF fell into the compound of the Indian Army Brigade Headquarters in the Rajouri sector, making it a close call.

This call, ThePrint has learnt, was much closer than known earlier as two top Indian Army commanders — Northern Army Commander Lt Gen. Ranbir Singh and 16 Corps Commander Lt Gen. Paramjit Singh — had stepped out of the Brigade Headquarters “minutes before” the bomb fell.


The two commanders, top sources in the defence and security establishment told ThePrint, had left for a nearby post when the PAF bomb fell into the compound of the Brigade Headquarters. This post was less than 700 metres from the spot where the bomb struck.

The Northern Command and the Indian Army headquarters did not respond to requests for comment from ThePrint for this report.

Also read: How a woman officer helped IAF hit back when Pakistani jets targeted India after Balakot

‘Real plan of PAF’
The PAF fighter jets were chased away by the IAF after a dogfight which saw IAF Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman being shot down and captured by Pakistan. He was released after nearly 60 hours in Pakistani captivity as the two countries pulled back from the brink of war.

The new information suggests that they may have escalated to an even more serious turn of events had the PAF bomb hit the Brigade Headquarters when the top commanders were inside.


After the dogfight between the two air forces, Pakistani military spokesperson Maj. Gen. Asif Ghafoor claimed that the PAF had intentionally dropped bombs near important military installations (and not at them) to show their capability.

Two days later, on 29 February, Ghafoor said Pakistan knew who was at the Brigade Headquarters when “they intentionally dropped the bombs near it”.

Also read: After Balakot, Pakistani & Indian air forces are now fighting war of uniform patches

Indian defence sources, however, told ThePrint that radio chatter picked up by Indian forces made it clear that the real plan of the PAF was to hit Indian military assets. The sudden appearance of IAF MiG-21s from across the Pir Panjal range thwarted the plan, they said.

At the same time, the sources said the presence of the senior commanders in the area was a matter of chance and something Pakistan couldn’t have known. Northern Army Commander Lt Gen. Singh was there to review the situation near the Line of Control amid suspicions that Pakistan would try and respond to the Balakot air strike.

Indian Army sources explained Ghafoor’s 29 February claim saying Pakistan may have learnt about the visit of the top commanders to the Rajouri Brigade Headquarters as the Northern Command had tweeted news about the visit on 28 February.




NorthernComd.IA

✔@NorthernComd_IA
https://twitter.com/NorthernComd_IA/status/1100990125981483008

#ArmyCdrNC visited troops deployed in forward areas along LC in #Rajouri Sector; reviewed operational preparedness; complimented all ranks for their high morale & aggressive domination of LC. @adgpi @PIB_India @SpokespersonMoD


917
10:54 AM - Feb 28, 2019

237 people are talking about this


https://theprint.in/defence/indian-...fore-paf-bomb-fell-in-compound-27-feb/241324/

 

[HawkEye27]

Indian Army commanders left Brigade HQ ‘minutes before’ PAF bomb fell in compound 27 Feb
Pakistan has claimed bomb was dropped near Brigade HQ in Rajouri to show its capability. India believes PAF actually planned to hit the facility.
SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP Updated: 27 May, 2019 10:07 am IST

Northern Army Commander Lt. Gen. Ranbir Singh had the visited troops along LoC in Rajouri Sector on February 27. | Twitter: @NorthernComd_IA
Text Size:





New Delhi: When Pakistan Air Force fighter jets dropped a bomb near an Indian defence installation in Jammu and Kashmir on 27 February — a day after the Balakot strike by the Indian Air Force — Islamabad claimed that this was done to display its capability and not target the Indian military.

The H-4 Stand-Off Weapon, a precision-guided glide bomb, dropped by the PAF fell into the compound of the Indian Army Brigade Headquarters in the Rajouri sector, making it a close call.

This call, ThePrint has learnt, was much closer than known earlier as two top Indian Army commanders — Northern Army Commander Lt Gen. Ranbir Singh and 16 Corps Commander Lt Gen. Paramjit Singh — had stepped out of the Brigade Headquarters “minutes before” the bomb fell.


The two commanders, top sources in the defence and security establishment told ThePrint, had left for a nearby post when the PAF bomb fell into the compound of the Brigade Headquarters. This post was less than 700 metres from the spot where the bomb struck.

The Northern Command and the Indian Army headquarters did not respond to requests for comment from ThePrint for this report.

Also read: How a woman officer helped IAF hit back when Pakistani jets targeted India after Balakot

‘Real plan of PAF’
The PAF fighter jets were chased away by the IAF after a dogfight which saw IAF Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman being shot down and captured by Pakistan. He was released after nearly 60 hours in Pakistani captivity as the two countries pulled back from the brink of war.

The new information suggests that they may have escalated to an even more serious turn of events had the PAF bomb hit the Brigade Headquarters when the top commanders were inside.


After the dogfight between the two air forces, Pakistani military spokesperson Maj. Gen. Asif Ghafoor claimed that the PAF had intentionally dropped bombs near important military installations (and not at them) to show their capability.

Two days later, on 29 February, Ghafoor said Pakistan knew who was at the Brigade Headquarters when “they intentionally dropped the bombs near it”.

Also read: After Balakot, Pakistani & Indian air forces are now fighting war of uniform patches

Indian defence sources, however, told ThePrint that radio chatter picked up by Indian forces made it clear that the real plan of the PAF was to hit Indian military assets. The sudden appearance of IAF MiG-21s from across the Pir Panjal range thwarted the plan, they said.

At the same time, the sources said the presence of the senior commanders in the area was a matter of chance and something Pakistan couldn’t have known. Northern Army Commander Lt Gen. Singh was there to review the situation near the Line of Control amid suspicions that Pakistan would try and respond to the Balakot air strike.

Indian Army sources explained Ghafoor’s 29 February claim saying Pakistan may have learnt about the visit of the top commanders to the Rajouri Brigade Headquarters as the Northern Command had tweeted news about the visit on 28 February.




NorthernComd.IA

✔@NorthernComd_IA

#ArmyCdrNC visited troops deployed in forward areas along LC in #Rajouri Sector; reviewed operational preparedness; complimented all ranks for their high morale & aggressive domination of LC. @adgpi @PIB_India @SpokespersonMoD


917
10:54 AM - Feb 28, 2019

237 people are talking about this


https://theprint.in/defence/indian-...fore-paf-bomb-fell-in-compound-27-feb/241324/

Nothing New, I posted this way back in April

 

[1Paki$tani]

Nothing New, I posted this way back in April

View attachment 562165

But its a confirmation coming from them. Slowly they are admitting to few things.

 

[CriticalThought]

The brass in ops room are not kids that will go with knee jerk reaction. Had we struck 7-8 IAF bases at 5AM on 26th finding it later that we fell into Indian trap. The whole world terming us aggressors as Indians would have denied the airstrikes since they just killed a crow.

Growup man!!!



You are comparing PAF directly with France??? Come on buddy!!!

We have comparision with India here. They are French Customers and we Chinese.

Both China and France are doing good with Electronics. So it now depends how the customers take advantage of their off the shelf toys.

Using hi tech vocabulary does not makes an argument. Its simple business, French want to sell their stuff to everyone. Whereas Chinese are still reserve in these things. So we may get hand on what Rafale holds but India will have a tough time trying to enter the Chinese tech.

My intention with using technical terms was to help you increase your knowledge as well as helping other readers on the forum. Looks like you want to remain clueless and insist on trivializing the threat. So for your simple mind, here is the simple explanation. Defending against Rafale isn't like ordering Chinese takeaway. It's not like going to Chinatown on a shopping spree.

Finally, if you dont have the confidence to face France on your own two feet using the brain that Allah gave you, then stop wasting time on this forum.

 

[ProudPak]

We must be people of intellect and not of blind faith. How exactly is pitching Block 3s against Rafales going to do that? Would prefer a reasoned argument over a one liner.

Would u have pitched Jf 17 block 1 or 2 against and su30 mki and said it would win. After the 27th Feb the Indians dare not come. So it's not just the machine but man behind the machine. Morale courage and knowing your weapon system. PAF will inshallah take take care of Rafael just like it did migs 22 and su 30mki

 

[The Accountant]

PL15 and Meteor are not comparable ... Meteor is superior ....

PL15 is comparable of advance than AIM120D

Both have BVRs with long ranges (PL-15 vs Meteor)

Both have AESA

Both have SPJ capabilities

Rafale is Omni Role & Thunder is multirole - But this all comes to employment as we dont have requirement for any kind of force projection or long range deep strike missions.

India can hardly afford an other 36 Rafales. Where as with 200+ JFs we will have force concentration in AOR.

Once PAF jumps to 5th Gen then Rafale with be kids in front of them. So for the time being lets deal with Blk-3 while 5th Gen comes into play

 

[HawkEye27]

My intention with using technical terms was to help you increase your knowledge as well as helping other readers on the forum. Looks like you want to remain clueless and insist on trivializing the threat. So for your simple mind, here is the simple explanation. Defending against Rafale isn't like ordering Chinese takeaway. It's not like going to Chinatown on a shopping spree.

Finally, if you dont have the confidence to face France on your own two feet using the brain that Allah gave you, then stop wasting time on this forum.

Dear! The way you tried to explain the basics of semi conductors - well its a defence forum not a physics class.

Are you trying to say that Chinese or Pakistani engineers are not aware of these petty terms????

The military only go for end product - if it jams, covers the frequencies and bandwidth of adversaries than we are good to go.

Due to Qatar factor and the fact Rafale is been flying for a long time, we can spy upon the characteristics of its EW suite and then simply buy the stuff that it neutralizes.

Remember, France is all about war economy. It does these cheap marketing stunts and sell things without strings to get money. Otherwise, its simply on par with other european nations and we have good market in italy and spain.

And then I dont need to waste my time with french. Why should I? I am just competing with Indians who are into buys international toys and all we have to do is to get a toy form somewhere that offers deterance.

PL15 and Meteor are not comparable ... Meteor is superior ....

PL15 is comparable of advance than AIM120D

Nothing officially is available about PL-15. But considering its size and Chinese tech everyone is speculating longer ranges on par with Meteor.

 

[The Accountant]

Meteor speculated range is 300 kms and pl15 has 200 km range ... meteor uses ramjet engine v/s rocket motor of pl15 which provides more range and mission flexibility to meteor ...

Furthermore i dont think that pl15 is two way link missile ...

Dear! The way you tried to explain the basics of semi conductors - well its a defence forum not a physics class.

Are you trying to say that Chinese or Pakistani engineers are not aware of these petty terms????

The military only go for end product - if it jams, covers the frequencies and bandwidth of adversaries than we are good to go.

Due to Qatar factor and the fact Rafale is been flying for a long time, we can spy upon the characteristics of its EW suite and then simply buy the stuff that it neutralizes.

Remember, France is all about war economy. It does these cheap marketing stunts and sell things without strings to get money. Otherwise, its simply on par with other european nations and we have good market in italy and spain.

And then I dont need to waste my time with french. Why should I? I am just competing with Indians who are into buys international toys and all we have to do is to get a toy form somewhere that offers deterance.



Nothing officially is available about PL-15. But considering its size and Chinese tech everyone is speculating longer ranges on par with Meteor.