PAF ‘OPS SWIFT RETORT’ and the effectiveness of air power

[MastanKhan]

Showing restraint was a political decision & I agree with em. Just imagine if we had actually engaged the Brigade HQ and roasted Bipin Uncle.

Hi,

There was no reason to take out the general officers---. That is a no no---.

But other targets and aircraft were a must---.

 

[Flight of falcon]

Not long ago I had a dinner with a recently retired Air Com. And we discussed issues such as how to counter flanker etc. He flat out told me that Pakistan has nothing to counter Flanker. He infact mentioned that Pakistanis better off destroying them on the ground than facing swarms in the air. Luckily he was nothing but an absolute praise for then pilots and training. He kept saying only time will tell how our pilots will perform against their planes.
I hope to see him again and get his perspective to see how he feels things are different now that we came up against and by all accounts defeated Su30s. Just like Flanker myth was smashed I hope and pray that Pakistan is working on countering Rafael as well In sha Allah.

 

[Cash GK]

AVM Malick,

Tactically the Paf failed to take advantage of the situation. The enemy had already announced what it was going to do prior to the night of the 26th---it had hinted strike at known locations---and yet the Paf failed to take action.
Paf was basically not prepared to challenge the enemy the first night. When the enemy came---the Paf shooed it off and was happy at it---. If it was not for the public outrage and outrage from junior officers---the Paf was well set and satisfied with the action.
The action taken on the 27th was incomplete---. It reminded of the 65 war when Akhnoor was not attacked and taken for the fear the indians would start an all out war and yet they did---.
The Paf let the IAF escape one more time. This drama of originally targeting certain areas then moving the target away---that was so childish an immature that one can only laugh at it---.
Then to top it all off---the pak military allowed the most modern indian sub to escape intact---even though that would have evened the score for the Atlantique---sheer incompetence and cowardice---.
If it was israel attacked in that manner by its enemies---they would have smashed the enemy assets for at least 24 hours---.
Pakistan's reaction also showed that the Paf has truly become a defensive air force---it was caught short of frontline aircraft at a very critical time and it failed to take advantage of the situation presented to it on a platter by an incompetent enemy---.
The sad part over here is that my brethren over here are pretty much illiterate & worship the Paf second only to Allah and cannot see any faults in their incompetence---.
For this little incidence of success---Paf has given away its tactical secrets for such a small success---. What a shame.
MastanKhan @ Defence.pk forums

In Ramadan dont smoke budy.. not good for your faith

 

[Flight of falcon]

AVM Malick,

Tactically the Paf failed to take advantage of the situation. The enemy had already announced what it was going to do prior to the night of the 26th---it had hinted strike at known locations---and yet the Paf failed to take action.

Let me break you down point by point.
Seriously who can believe this? Yes India threatened to strike us but it was a general threat like some skinny starving dudes crossing the LOC fire few bullets and leave behind one skinny starving dude like Last time. PAF was on high alert since Pulwama bombing. Surprise attack is what it is .... a surprise. India never announced where they were going to hit. All accounts are that Mirage 2000 crossed the border and came 5-6 miles inside before launching weapons at a useless target so far away from the border that no one ever thought they will.



Paf was basically not prepared to challenge the enemy the first night. When the enemy came---the Paf shooed it off and was happy at it---. If it was not for the public outrage and outrage from junior officers---the Paf was well set and satisfied with the action.
The action taken on the 27th was incomplete---. It reminded of the 65 war when Akhnoor was not attacked and taken for the fear the indians would start an all out war and yet they did---.
The Paf let the IAF escape one more time. This drama of originally targeting certain areas then moving the target away---that was so childish an immature that one can only laugh at it---.

Your point is so contradictory ....
First you say PAF was not prepared but yet PAF performed spectacularly the next day defeating the enemy many times more powerful. PAF is not a family picnic where father is forced to make Decision based on what kids want. They have pre made plans and strategies to deal with all eventualities. What you wrote is an utter nonsense and so far from any correction that I will just leave it there. Thank God you didn’t claim there was a mutiny and some junior pilots took off to fight Indians on their own. As for 65 just a reminder we started the real war by also shooting down an Indian airplane which was attacking a train. PAF attacked Indian bases and there was no public pressure to do so.

Then to top it all off---the pak military allowed the most modern indian sub to escape intact---even though that would have evened the score for the Atlantique---sheer incompetence and cowardice---.

I am confused as to why everyone in the airforce and army is a coward and incompetent but you typing away on your computer is the Hercules waiting to destroy India and defend Pakistan.
Yes we could have destroyed their submarine but think about this scenario.
Indians would have sure to retaliate. Forget attacking our Navy all they had to do is to sink few freighters and oil tankers and no one would insure any ship coming to Pakistan basically bringing our entire trade and economy to halt. We would be pennyless in less than a week. Do we have safe supply lines and oil storage or oil supplies? No we have a week’s worth of strategic storage and after that tanks don’t run on water.


If it was israel attacked in that manner by its enemies---they would have smashed the enemy assets for at least 24 hours---.


We are not Israel and our enemy is not arabs. Not even close. This comparison is in accurate to say the least.



Pakistan's reaction also showed that the Paf has truly become a defensive air force---it was caught short of frontline aircraft at a very critical time and it failed to take advantage of the situation presented to it on a platter by an incompetent enemy---.
The sad part over here is that my brethren over here are pretty much illiterate & worship the Paf second only to Allah and cannot see any faults in their incompetence---.

And you can. You seriously want anyone to believe your utter gibberish and over the top claims that are so far fetched they leave no room to discuss or argue. You have called everyone illiterate , coward, incompetent and basically set yourself on a pedestal that no one can even come close to. Not the military leadership, not political leadership not even uneducated forum members . If I had read your last paragraph I would have never wasted time responding and would have left you in your dillusions to live in.


For this little incidence of success---Paf has given away its tactical secrets for such a small success---. What a shame.
MastanKhan @ Defence.pk forums

 

[blain2]

We must be people of intellect and not of blind faith. How exactly is pitching Block 3s against Rafales going to do that? Would prefer a reasoned argument over a one liner.

I am not trivializing Rafale or its SPECTRA EW suit and my point about having faith is that our reaction should not always be knee-jerk and panic. Members have done that with the MKIs, no doubt a potent platform, which also is not without vulnerabilities.

Rafale is a potent capability that provides high survivability and the promise of mission success to its air crews, however let's also keep in mind that we don't intend to counter Rafale with JF-17s only. When the air force fights, it operates as system. No matter what kind of EW and suppression capabilities you put on a fighter aircraft in the 4/4.5 generation, they can be negated/countered by mission-specific platforms such as AEW&C and EW assets that are in service.

The task of these force multipliers is to operate in a dense EW environment. Secondly, Pakistan has to focus on ensuring that the communications between its fighter and auxiliary fleet (AEW, EW platforms) are secure and not susceptible to jamming which would allow for a high degree of operational freedom at least in the interdiction role.

Coming to the point about the ability of Rafale in strike roles with active jamming/cancellation, that is a concern but it isn't a 100% guarantee of success. "Implementation of active cancellation techniques is extremely difficult due to the complex processing requirements and the difficulty of predicting the exact nature of the reflected radar signal over a broad aspect of an aircraft, missile or other target."

Operating over an airspace with ground based SAM systems with such capability has been shown to be effective (thus the high survivability and success quoted by the French in their Rafale operations in the Sahil, Libya and Afghanistan where the primary threat is from MANPADs and ground based SAM systems), however in an airspace with Over The Horizon AESA radars, its not that simple.

If Pakistan has to contend with the unknowns of Rafale and SPECTRA, the same goes for India operating against wholly Chinese and Pakistani developed systems.

Point being that while we are not discounting the potency of Rafale, we need to realize its not an impossibility to counter and operate against either.

 

[HawkEye27]

Hi,

There was no reason to take out the general officers---. That is a no no---.

But other targets and aircraft were a must---.

The thing is that we never knew Bipin was in HQ at that time. Similarly, lets say we bombed Srinagar, Halwara or Pathankot, and killed the AOC or Base Commander accidently in those limited strikes trying to avenge a dead crow

 

[Talon]

Wasnt the Mi17 was shot down by a indian air defence battery on the ground?
On a side note indians are generally brainwashed by their current political party BJP,government and the media.They failed to realize that despite they have a bigger air force with big budget and more expensive advance jets that alone won,t give them an egde against PAF.The sad thing is that intellectual depths of indian masses will erode further in the next five years because they again elected the same lunatic party.Overall ten years in modi influence india will change and suffer in the long term like pakistan suffered after zia ul haq period.

I was told few days ago that Mi-17 was an A-A kill.While Abhinundun was busy in valley flying (trying to play cool by doing low flying and surprising Paf) his wingman was flying high (who himself was later locked by Paf),as soon as he had a target,he fired missile and the target turned out to be Indian Mi-17.

 

[MastanKhan]

In Ramadan dont smoke budy.. not good for your faith

Hi,

If you had known your religion better---you would be accusing and specially in Ramazan---.

Know your religion youngman---know your religion---.

Not long ago I had a dinner with a recently retired Air Com. And we discussed issues such as how to counter flanker etc. He flat out told me that Pakistan has nothing to counter Flanker. He infact mentioned that Pakistanis better off destroying them on the ground than facing swarms in the air. Luckily he was nothing but an absolute praise for then pilots and training. He kept saying only time will tell how our pilots will perform against their planes.
I hope to see him again and get his perspective to see how he feels things are different now that we came up against and by all accounts defeated Su30s. Just like Flanker myth was smashed I hope and pray that Pakistan is working on countering Rafael as well In sha Allah.

Hi,

Flanker myth is not smashed---. It only got a minor scratch---& it is very much alive---.

Now if the Paf had gone on a one day rampage on all the frontline bases with positive results---maybe you could claim that---.

Now regarding your having dinner with a Paf officer and then claiming about Flanker myth--you can talk tough with me---but you are clueless about the enemy fire power / and the resource of the Flanker---and the Paf's blunder of letting it escape---/

 

[iLION12345_1]

Hi,

If you had known your religion better---you would be accusing and specially in Ramazan---.

Know your religion youngman---know your religion---.

Then know your own place sir. Stop being an arm chair general. Usually it’s hard to read what you Type due to how nonsensical and Opinionated it is, this time was no different, absolutely no knowledge about how things work, but claims to be a godsend strategist. Thankfully you’re not in charge or this country would sink faster than it already has. And I’m fully expecting a lame response that you think makes you look tough. Go ahead. Just please stop commenting where you have no proof or backing. It’ll be better for all of us.

 

[MastanKhan]

Then know your own place sir. Stop being an arm chair general. Usually it’s hard to read what you Type due to how nonsensical and Opinionated it is, this time was no different, absolutely no knowledge about how things work, but claims to be a godsend strategist. Thankfully you’re not in charge or this country would sink faster than it already has. And I’m fully expecting a lame response that you think makes you look tough. Go ahead. Just please stop commenting where you have no proof or backing. It’ll be better for all of us.

Hi,

This is a discussion forum that we keep alive---.

With 166 posts in 4 years---you don't have the right to talk back---. Just listen and follow please---.

Remember---those who keep their mouths shut---don't have the right to speak about critical matters---at critical times---.

 

[iLION12345_1]

While it is true that Pakistanis are a little “jazbati” and are over estimating this one victory. It is also true that it is a victory no matter how you look at it. War isn’t idealistic and doesn’t happen by your standards. All generals. Humans. Countries make mistakes, especially in war. Everyone knows the threat still exists. It doesn’t vanish as you think people believe it does.
While there is a fine line between constructive criticism and outright praising the enemy. Your current messages fall under the classification of “annoying”
You’re entitled to your opinion. We respect that. But nobody likes it when an opinion is plastered against them 30 times.
Just as you think Pakistanis are being one sided about their victory. You’re being completely one sided too. Just on the opposite one.
And “161” messages on a forum with 99% of arm chair generals Or “44,000” messages in the same place isn’t really merit to me. As it seems to be to you. I observe and talk where needed, I don’t plaster a dumb opinion 30 times in a place. Once is enough for me. Even 44k messages, you seem to know little about defense. Which is to be expected since everything here is speculation and not reality. But you do you sir. I’ve tried enough times. Your “words of wisdom” have no backing. Not for me at least. Now let’s agree to disagree and let the thread continue where it’s supposed to go. My apologies for starting this. If they mean anything.

Hi,

This is a discussion forum that we keep alive---.

With 166 posts in 4 years---you don't have the right to talk back---. Just listen and follow please---.

Remember---those who keep their mouths shut---don't have the right to speak about critical matters---at critical times---.

 

[MastanKhan]

But you do you sir. I’ve tried enough times. Your “words of wisdom” have no backing. Not for me at least. Now let’s agree to disagree and let the thread continue where it’s supposed to go. My apologies for starting this. If they mean anything.

Hi,

I don't have a problem with that---. I can only write what I feel---what I see---what I assess---.

Would you think that if I did not have conviction behind what I wrote---would I be writing it for so long---with all the criticism leveled at me---. I don't think so---.

 

[Armchair]

I am not trivializing Rafale or its SPECTRA EW suit and my point about having faith is that our reaction should not always be knee-jerk and panic. Members have done that with the MKIs, no doubt a potent platform, which also is not without vulnerabilities.

Rafale is a potent capability that provides high survivability and the promise of mission success to its air crews, however let's also keep in mind that we don't intend to counter Rafale with JF-17s only. When the air force fights, it operates as system. No matter what kind of EW and suppression capabilities you put on a fighter aircraft in the 4/4.5 generation, they can be negated/countered by mission-specific platforms such as AEW&C and EW assets that are in service.

The task of these force multipliers is to operate in a dense EW environment. Secondly, Pakistan has to focus on ensuring that the communications between its fighter and auxiliary fleet (AEW, EW platforms) are secure and not susceptible to jamming which would allow for a high degree of operational freedom at least in the interdiction role.

Coming to the point about the ability of Rafale in strike roles with active jamming/cancellation, that is a concern but it isn't a 100% guarantee of success. "Implementation of active cancellation techniques is extremely difficult due to the complex processing requirements and the difficulty of predicting the exact nature of the reflected radar signal over a broad aspect of an aircraft, missile or other target."

Operating over an airspace with ground based SAM systems with such capability has been shown to be effective (thus the high survivability and success quoted by the French in their Rafale operations in the Sahil, Libya and Afghanistan where the primary threat is from MANPADs and ground based SAM systems), however in an airspace with Over The Horizon AESA radars, its not that simple.

If Pakistan has to contend with the unknowns of Rafale and SPECTRA, the same goes for India operating against wholly Chinese and Pakistani developed systems.

Point being that while we are not discounting the potency of Rafale, we need to realize its not an impossibility to counter and operate against either.

Thank you for your reply. I understand that it may be possible to meet them in the EW arena, more or less. However, the kinematics, the aerodynamics and the BVR capability of the Rafale, when combined, gives them a decisive edge to shoot first, and from a better vantage. We don't have anything to counter this. That's a technical bottleneck IMHO.

 

[Cash GK]

Hi,

If you had known your religion better---you would be accusing and specially in Ramazan---.

Know your religion youngman---know your religion---.



Hi,

Flanker myth is not smashed---. It only got a minor scratch---& it is very much alive---.

Now if the Paf had gone on a one day rampage on all the frontline bases with positive results---maybe you could claim that---.

Now regarding your having dinner with a Paf officer and then claiming about Flanker myth--you can talk tough with me---but you are clueless about the enemy fire power / and the resource of the Flanker---and the Paf's blunder of letting it escape---/

Paf did perfectly fine job..that shows will power of a nation.if can show their enemies right path then what is point to develop tactics...this operation has given paf a great marketing..all major military establishments of the world stll surprised and shocked..they gave them best possible weapons. When testing came they were blind.. it is great shock..now we have to utilise this in political way...anyway I dont agree with you point of view..shar ki din ki zingi gedear ki 100 sale ki zindgi see betar hain

 

[SQ8]

The enemy is busy learning from their mistakes and will get help to correct them. Once that does happen they will mow through us like a hot knife through butter.
Because our finances are failing and our equipment is long in the tooth.