Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[umair86pk]

posters on this forum are so much childish

 

[PakShaheen79]

So Niaz,

It is gets very funny to read when pakistanis say that there was not enough money---or it is too expensive---well lets take a local example for every day sindhi village in inner sindh----.

Highway robbers ( dacoits ) are common in sindh----robberies at gun point are common----band of robbers/highway men ( dacoits ) well equipped with guns attack individual villages and take away the cattle----so what these poor villagers do----they beg, borrow, save and starve to buy over priced AK47's to protect their villages-----.

Pakistanis care more about protecting their personal properties rather than the national integrity.

Sorry sir MK,

I cannot concur with the analogy you presented here. Buying an AK-47 and a fighter jet are two entirely different propositions. Though i agree with what did u say about how Pakistanis care more about themselves but here again you cannot paint the whole nation with same brush. I think we paid a heavy price already and stayed on the edge of vulnerability for decades but invested in our own projects and that was the best thing happen to PAF and Pakistan. i don't care what people say about foreign stuff, but i have all the faith in JFT and FC-20.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sorry sir MK,

I cannot concur with the analogy you presented here. Buying an AK-47 and a fighter jet are two entirely different propositions. Though i agree with what did u say about how Pakistanis care more about themselves but here again you cannot paint the whole nation with same brush. I think we paid a heavy price already and stayed on the edge of vulnerability for decades but invested in our own projects and that was the best thing happen to PAF and Pakistan. i don't care what people say about foreign stuff, but i have all the faith in JFT and FC-20.

Sir,

You should care----because weapons systems are not based on FAITH-BELIEF or RELIGION---they are based on the principal of performing better than your enemy weapons under adverse and strenuous conditions. It is all about ' DUE DILLIGENCE'---that you know that you have done your job right before you encounter the enemy.

The term ' I have faith ' is a fallacy and based on the habbit of those who have not done their job in time---were caught sleeping at their job---were clueless to the terrible consequences the nation would face in the future---and when confronted for their lackluster approach----bring in "FAITH" to compensate for their errors.

The heart of the JF 17 is the russian engine---which even with all the promises is still prone to sanctions in case of emergency---. The FC20 is awaiting a brand new engine to be cleared for flight operations----an un-certified engine at that-----chinese have a tradition of of flying with uncertified engines on their millitary aircraft----unlike their western counterparts---the chinese millitary engines are certified during actual in service operations----. I don't know if you know or understand about certification or not----or how many members on this board understand that part-----if you do---then good for you and dthere was no disrespect meant.

 

[deckingraj]

Sir, You should care----because weapons systems are not based on FAITH-BELIEF or RELIGION---they are based on the principal of performing better than your enemy weapons under adverse and strenuous conditions. It is all about ' DUE DILLIGENCE'---that you know that you have done your job right before you encounter the enemy..

I have been on this forum from quite sometime and have read your posts on this particular subject.I believe understand your POV very well...In fact most of the time i am in agreement with you...

However let me ask few questions here... What is the criteria of due-diligence...Is it weapon by weapon, wing by wing or in totality???

would you agree if i say that in 2003 showdown IAF had quite an edge over their counterparts PAF??? However if you see the results India was detered by Pakistan...Now was it a self deteration(economy/cost vs benefits) or Pakistan firepower that is a different topic to debate but end result is India was detered....So let's jump from 2011 to 2016-2017 era....Do you still think that investing in JF-17, FC-20 was a mistake??? because by then both these platforms would be much more lethal...PAF would have got a good hang of JF-17 as well...In short you would have a lethal sanction free platform...Do you agree that then perhaps this deal will not look as bad as it is now???

 

[Xracer]

UAE Mirage 2000-9

---------- Post added at 12:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------

 

[MastanKhan]

I have been on this forum from quite sometime and have read your posts on this particular subject.I believe understand your POV very well...In fact most of the time i am in agreement with you...

However let me ask few questions here... What is the criteria of due-diligence...Is it weapon by weapon, wing by wing or in totality???

would you agree if i say that in 2003 showdown IAF had quite an edge over their counterparts PAF??? However if you see the results India was detered by Pakistan...Now was it a self deteration(economy/cost vs benefits) or Pakistan firepower that is a different topic to debate but end result is India was detered....So let's jump from 2011 to 2016-2017 era....Do you still think that investing in JF-17, FC-20 was a mistake??? because by then both these platforms would be much more lethal...PAF would have got a good hang of JF-17 as well...In short you would have a lethal sanction free platform...Do you agree that then perhaps this deal will not look as bad as it is now???

Hi,


Due diligence means---in this case---getting the right equipment at the right time----knowing about the past behaviour of the supplier, keeping a diversified portfolio---changing directions in mid stride----. No purchase of m2k in the 90 have set us back by 20 years----not getting a high tech platform right after 9/11 within 2-3 years falls under criminal negligence----just needed some pro-active thinking and pro-active approach to the changing climate of aggression and warfare.

It is not weapon by weapon-----as long as your best can stand up to their best mano a mano for the first few days of the combat in our scenario---then you don't need to match by numbers---that is why I have stated many a times that aim 120 is a game changer----pakistanis don't understand what a big favour the u s has done to us----.

2003----after the initial reaction wore off----india realized that war was not worth it----or was made to realize that war was not the answer---but rather the economic growth----. India, then also understood or was made to understand the significance of 'cold start' doctrine----instead of a millitary strike----the cold start really went ice cold in the form subversive strike----which killed the economic growth of the nation---created issues in the community---a civil unrest---turned the nation upon itself by taking advantage of hatred and disunity and turning it around on the opponent---the disgruntled tribals leaders played a very important role.

JF17 and FC20 will be lethal planes when they mature----jf 17 is not free from sanctions---the russian engine is the culprit----secondly the sd10 bvr is just in its nascent stage----it will be a while when all the systems mature over the years----. Right now it is all about integration---Fc20 still needs an operational engine----.

I mean to say----the play book has not been written about these aircrafts yet-----the operational manual has yet to be written---right now we just have ground strike aircraft----where we needed air superiority to dominate the air----we got the ground sweepers---it takes a long time to settle in a new aircraft to do what you need it to do----.

But in this process you cannot forget what the enemy's leading aircraft can do---if you don't have match against the enemy's leading aircraft----then you got serious issues at hand.

If you have to fight the enemy---first you need to learn to respect the strength of its weaponery---smart computers---smart missiles----smart targetting systems have changed the game in the air---.

It is a historical fact that if yoru weapon has a longer range---you will demolish the enemy----no if and buts---and no "MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE" WILL COME INTO THE PICTURE----it was proved by the romans who attacked brtain some 2000 plus years ago----their arrows could shoot farther----Genghis Khan and his armies proved as well---when his archers could shoot from a distance riding the horse backs.

Bottomline---if your missile can lock on and has a longer 95% kill range and you can carry more per aircraft then your enemy will have a serious problem.

 

[ANG]

Hi, and to also add to Mr. MK's points, and also highlight what he has mentioned before. The IAF will not sit around and simply let the JF-17 and J-10B mature, they will also upgrade and induct newer technology. Kindly please see the article below. The IAF is already planning of giving their S-30MKIs a huge upgrade.

Super Sukhois To Give India A Generation Leap ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

However, I do believe the M2000 era has passed. The PAF should have bought them in the 90s and blew it, but that is the past. Moreover, I highly doubt the PAF could afford buying M2000s given Pakistan's fiscal limitations. The PAF should make a major push to induct and upgrade JF-17s/J-10Bs.

 

[MastanKhan]

ANG,

If BLK 52 F 16 era has not passed and will not pass for another 20 years at least, then how come mirage 2000-9 era has passed----.

Looking at qatar and their buying power---they go for the best of the best----with the best possible eaccessories---so the m2k9's manufactured for them would be way ahead of other nations air craft---.

By saying that we have already made the decision and we will stick to it----means that you may have made a mistake and now you are praying that hopefully it comes through---and out of shameof being ridiculed, we may not want to admit to our shortcomings..

Also---the mindset of posters seems to be----we have decided on this item----so we have to be right to have decided for these aircraft---even though neither one of these aircraft have operational power plants of their own at this stage other than the russian---all offensive weapons systems so new---

 

[Luftwaffe]

MK You have said it all in the last 3 posts what else should I write to make my friends over here understand.

- Ground Engineering Team will be working on both Manuals and Simulators based training and learning to have the level of know how for the new platforms. It takes time and it is a continual learning process.

- Engine and hardware familiarity takes time. Considering RD-93 is new to engineers and WS-Series have not even landed.

- Pilots training a vigorous one to be on par and compatible with F-16s and the Pilots who have been and through F-16s training.

It take a lot of time to reach that point you want to be Top Guns you don't become one automatically in 3-5 Years. The Top Gun School pilots selected to take part are the top notch experienced ones and even then the list gets shorter for the awards imagine the standards. It is not like switch on the plane flown it for 175 hours and you are the master. It takes 45 hours of flight to receive certification for Private Pilot License PPL on a single engine Cessna, you people think 200 hours is enough for a complex fighter machine to master? Dead Wrong people take this psyche out of your minds who ever is feeding you.

- Have you read the details of Mirage 2000 (-5 MK)/MK2, Thunders have not even gone to that level of integration RETROFIT what are you people talking about that we are done with Mirages decision and its time for JFT (FC-20 not available right now people understand). Many of you people laugh at IAF the level of training and integration and upgrades IAF is constantly going through have enable them to be a very strengthen Air Force, They on the otherside are dealing with huge monstrous machines that you can't imagine, They are a decade ahead of us (don't bring in Mig-21 topic).

Dassault further improved the Mirage 2000-5, creating the Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2 which is currently the most advanced variant of the Mirage 2000. Enhancements to offensive systems included a datalink for the targeting of MICA ER missiles, the addition of the Damocles FLIR targeting pod, and a newer, stealthier Thales RDY-2 all-weather synthetic aperture radar with moving target indicator capability, which also grants the aircraft improved air-to-ground capability. The avionics were further updated with higher resolution color displays, an optional Topsight helmet-mounted display, and the addition of the Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) designed for the Rafale. A new Thales Totem 3000 inertial navigation system with ring laser gyroscope and GPS capability was added, providing much greater accuracy, higher reliability, and shorter alignment time than the older ULISS 52 navigation system which it replaced. Other upgrades included the addition of an on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS) for the pilot and an ICMS 3 digital countermeasures suite.

Further planned upgrades will include Thales AIDA visual identification pod, a GPS receiver, MIDS datalink, new long-range sensors, and the Topsight E helmet-mounted display. Other technology developed for the Rafale will also be integrated into the Mirage 2000, including infrared and optical sensors for IFF and targeting.

- Retrofit of Avionics, verity of Weapon/Weapon systems, structural modifications, RD-93 and replacement of RD engines with WS series of engines. You think its going to take place in 3/4 years when you have shortage of men and FC-20 would also be needing a dedicated team.

- Testing of the airframes, Aircrafts coming out of factory that will go through Hard Ground Testing and then take up to the Skies completing a number of hours before they are available and certified to be inducted into Squadrons, Do you people think it will take a year or two.

I don't know who is feeding you news regarding Thunders and FC-20 that it is just a Plug and Play thing, because the perception is wrong it is Not the example you will find in Mirage Factory and F-6 Factory they have gone through all those hard work and training which is still being continued and upgradation to the level of technology and training is taking place a continual process where-as here Some people feed you that its all good plane manufactured in a month and in 6 months Walah everything is awesome hunter ready to kill the prey, These are wrong Information being fed and spewed contaminating the members mind the reality is what you have read on top.

Everything will take Time, these machines no doubt will prove to be worth something but in time and a long time the word here is Time, WHY because we were getting Mirage 2000s we rejected them had we not we would have just as Mirage III/V, would have maintain them as well. Are we not maintaining Mirage III/V for the last 40 Years? Are these not expensive enough to maintain but some people over here are deliberately putting this subject under the carpet because they have no Answers to it.

 

[Pakistanisage]

france refused to povide avionics for jf-17 under indian pressure n now they want to sell old mirages to pakistan.we dont need their mirages anymore.
india will be the first country going for rafale probably because of political reasons.UAE rejected rafale initially n got blk 60 F-16s n there r grim chances that they will buy rafales.blk 60 falcon is less costly n almost equally effective as compare to rafale

I think Pakistan should never buy anything from from French anymore. These backstabbing Bas___ds have always screwed Pakistan and their hardware is way too overpriced. I still have not forgotten when these Goons took 500 Million USD of our money and then reneged on the agreement to sell a reprocessing plant in Z A Bhutto's time. For the longest time we were at the mercy of these hoodlums, but now we have China who is glad to fill in all of our Defence needs. Thank you China, we really appreciate your help.

 

[Luftwaffe]

I think Pakistan should never buy anything from from French anymore. These backstabbing Bas___ds have always screwed Pakistan and their hardware is way too overpriced. I still have not forgotten when these Goons took 500 Million USD of our money and then reneged on the agreement to sell a reprocessing plant in Z A Bhutto's time. For the longest time we were at the mercy of these hoodlums, but now we have China who is glad to fill in all of our Defence needs. Thank you China, we really appreciate your help.

Don't call French bastar.ds after all these years they have provided you with equipment and technology but Pakistan has been ungrateful to them. You wasted their time & money. To receive a credible deterrence such a technology ZA Bhutto wanted even 500 Million is less look at Iranians they would pay billions to have it.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Sir,

You should care----because weapons systems are not based on FAITH-BELIEF or RELIGION---they are based on the principal of performing better than your enemy weapons under adverse and strenuous conditions. It is all about ' DUE DILLIGENCE'---that you know that you have done your job right before you encounter the enemy.

The term ' I have faith ' is a fallacy and based on the habbit of those who have not done their job in time---were caught sleeping at their job---were clueless to the terrible consequences the nation would face in the future---and when confronted for their lackluster approach----bring in "FAITH" to compensate for their errors.

Dear MK,

by faith, I meant Confidence. I think this must clear the mist here. I never brought religion into this debate and would never do that. As far as ' Due Diligence' is concerned, you are right. Mirages were offered to Pak and we found them too expensive and rejected and UAE is thinking about doing the same with Rafale over same issue. UAE Eyes F-16 as Rafale Talks Falter

Now please enlightened me why UAE is looking for other options due to price issue when she can afford to spend a lot lot more than PAF? Sir every country has her own limits. Why US is forced to leave Afghanistan? same reason, they are just unable to sustain this war any more which has turned their economy upside down. So, what Pakistan did that wrong if it rejected an expensive machine and decided to go with her own project? Rest, UAE Mirages were never offered to Pakistan. Simple is that. so no debate can be done over that. I am not seeing UAE-French agreement materialized any time and even if it undergoes well it will take time as we know that it is not easy to bring French on your terms on price issue. Next, UAE has attached this string that Dassault will have to either buy back Mirage2000-9's or it will have to find a buyer. I will discuss these machines only IF they get offered to us EVER, at first place. Then I am unable to understand, how these Mirages would be not sanction prone? So, to me, PAF did its due diligence by taking the bold initiative to seek reliable self sufficiency in aerial defence.

The heart of the JF 17 is the russian engine---which even with all the promises is still prone to sanctions in case of emergency--

Hmmm.... and how it became the sanctions prone? We have an agreement with China for arrange power plant for JF-17 not with Russia and China did import more than 100 copies of RD-93 and till this date there are 50 odd Thunders are there so it means that by the time all the engines imported from Russia would be fitted, WS-13 would be certified (2-3 years time from now). WS-13 is already in testing and Thunder has flew with this engine in March 2011.

Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

and here is a shocker!

"Program officials said that a development JF-17 is now flying in China with a Chinese-developed engine, presumably the WS-13 Taishan. All other JF-17s are powered by the Russian-supplied RD-93 turbofan. On the eve of Farnborough, a Russian newspaper reported the opposition of Sukhoi and MiG director-general Mikhail Pogosian to a further sale of RD-93s to China because the JF-17 is competing with the MiG-29 for export sales. At the show, however, Russian officials, including Pogosian, played down this concern."

China and Pakistan Push Chengdu JF-17 Fighter for Export: AINonline

The FC20 is awaiting a brand new engine to be cleared for flight operations----an un-certified engine at that

Which un-certified engine?? WS-10A?? Sorry boss but it was certified years ago. Here it is, once we had a debate

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/42978-ws-10-taihang-ready.html

WS10A Turbofan Engine was formally design certificated and named

chinese have a tradition of of flying with uncertified engines on their millitary aircraft----unlike their western counterparts---the chinese millitary engines are certified during actual in service operations----. I don't know if you know or understand about certification or not----or how many members on this board understand that part-----if you do---then good for you and dthere was no disrespect meant.

Hmm... can you please let me know the one such example where an un-certified engine was put on a plane that was in active squadron service with PLAAF?

 

[TOPGUN]

Some of you are really something else still talking about this sh_t lolz unreal wasting thread space all the time get over it we are not getting this aircraft we all won't ever see it in PAF colors.

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakshaheen,

Thank you for your post----our geography is different than that of qatar and other countries who are considering cost effective factors----the enemy that we are facing is different than the enemy that they are facing---the threat level that we are facing is different that the threat level they are facing---the number of high tech high performance air superiority aircraft they are facing is different than what we are facing---.

Our scenario has been eye to eye conflict for the last 13 + years---where we are sitting on a powder keg that can blow up any time---any moment----qatar and other nations have no such threats challenging their geography---.

I guess that doesn't mean anything to you and it does not create any sense of urgency in your mind to get something on a fast track---where money is the least of the issues rather the induction of a potent system is a primary issue---.

If you are that stage of thinking where an extremely challenging threat level does not create any sense of urgency to get the needed air craft in time to prepare for the conflict---and you are still counting pennies and dollars---to see if they are worth to be spent----and time is of no essence---then I don't have much to say to you.

Now as for your links about the engine certifications----the chinese are known to certify millitary aircraft engines different than civilian aircraft engines----if you are familiar with that procedure---then we can talk further----but if your knowledge is just based on those links alone----then I cannot help much.


NOTE: Members who are upset at this thread's continuance----please refrain form passing condescending comments towards the participants---if you cannot join in---please stay away---this thread is here to tell you people that in the last 20 years the paf has barely moved in capabilities from where it was many a years ago---and that must be a concern for you---.

That is a concern to many like minded people---and for us---paf has not done much to relieve this concern.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Dear Mk,

Sir, I am afraid that now this debate is taking a whole new turn towards matters pertaining to foreign policy.But I would bear with you unless we can conclude something.

UAE brought some 80 F-16 Block-60 at a staggering price. These are only F-16's in the world equipped with APG-80, Agile Beam AESA radars. You really think it was cost effective solution. Then, recently, KSA signed deal for Typhoons. how come that cost-effective. The prime threat faced by the entire ME is Israel and that certainly demands acquiring every top-notch aerial combat system from every available source. Now Israelis have the most potent air force in the region. Now, it is beyond my comprehension that how you established that the threat we are facing (IAF) is more challenging than that of faced by all Gulf countries? Here we must bear in mind that Pakistan and US are not DECLARED enemies of each other (yet), and if they come face to face, then mark my words, even 100+ latest mirages would never make any difference because the mutual numerical disparity between PAF and USAF would be still in USAF favour in complete sense!

Certainly, the security profile of Pakistan is presenting much bleak picture than that of any other regional country (including Afghanistan) but the major brunt of these challenges stem from internal axis rather than any external front. Pakistan has been caught into a ruthless and sinister 4th Generation war where NSVA's are waging a veiled war against security forces and civilians. This is a complete asymmetric war where all the advantage of picking target, time, weapons to be used, tactical moves remains with terrorists. Normally, it demands 11 times more resource than in normal environment. With its current strength, PAF is more than capable to strike these NSVA's and has proved its worth in current COIN operation along with Pak army. But fact is, this war is primarily is a spy war to be fought by ISI and other intelligence agencies.

To me, this chaotic situation and internal security challenge, there must be an urgency to acquire the systems that can strengthen our technical intel gathering capabilities rather than going for expensive multi-role fighter which indeed would be great asset but not add much effectiveness of PAF against NSVA's in a complex 4th Generation War!

Now coming towards the engine certification, well you made a claim and I asked a simple question. Now I am unable to understand what difference the certification procedure makes? It is requirement of aeronautical engineering that engine must be certified before it can put into serial production. Saying that Chinese put un-certified engines on planes which are part of active service is equal to insulting the Chinese engineers and their expertise! The reason I posted the links were to make it clear that certification process ( whatever that is) was completed before WS-10A was put into production. Now if you want to ask me why Chinese are still importing AL-31F engines from Russians, I can answer but only if you are interested till then, have a nice day sir.