Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

[Genghis khan1]

Tiger You are partly right on Navigation Channel Vectoring...

Your assumption of Equating USN and IN is incorrect and Inappropriate.

Your Navy is not going on a Logic of Second Strike as of now, PN has Subs to take aggressive stance, which should be. To Develop SLBM Or SLCM you need Clandestine Technology.

By going for more Diesels will make no difference in Our Scenario for Both the Countries. With present Technology they can be easily fished out.

In Our Naval Scenario 2 SSNs can Cause Havoc.. I leave it here who gets them first.

I think second strike capability is not the issue. Pakistan most probably have Nukes stationed outside Pakistan (with Saudis or Turks) for that purpose. I think main concern for PN is to neutralize IN offensive capability in case of war. Subs are the prefect weapons to do this. Just like single PNS Ghazi never let IN aircraft carrier to leave port in 65 war.

 

[monitor]

Hi,

There is an issue with pak navy---. It does not have a potent frigate---. The F22 P are lightweight Frigates---.

The navy must have something that is heavier and more potent. The thing is that the situation in the region is changing by the day---on one side is India and on the other side is Iran coming into the game as a new player.
The Arabian sea is suddenly going to get crowded and there will be power positioning in the region. The U S navy is going to be pulling out its aircraft carrier out of the region pretty soon and with Gwadar port coming into operation---pak navy does need the presence of a stronger surface fleet.

Pakistan navy should reconsider the purchase of 8 submarine---and reduce it by 2 or 3 at this time. It should rather invest 1 billion dollars in 2 TYPE 054 Frigates and 3--4 upgraded version of Type F22P class frigates.

In 2 to 3 years from now---it can increase the order for the submarines.

I agree with you Pakistan need some heavy frigate like Type 54A/B but what benefit it will give by reducing order for sub now and increase latter . India's scorpion sub is coming with next couple of year and Pakistan will need to retire its 3 augusta 70 soon .so in my opinion Pakistan should try to give a package order for both 8 sub and upgraded 3/4 type 22 frigate and 2~3 Type 54A/B frigate . total value probably would not more than 6.5~7 billion dollar .which is only ~2 billion dollar more then current sub order . i don't think paying this bill over next 10~15 year will be too much for PN.

 

[MastanKhan]

I agree with you Pakistan need some heavy frigate like Type 54A/B but what benefit it will give by reducing order for sub now and increase latter . India's scorpion sub is coming with next couple of year and Pakistan will need to retire its 3 augusta 70 soon .so in my opinion Pakistan should try to give a package order for both 8 sub and upgraded 3/4 type 22 frigate and 2~3 Type 54A/B frigate . total value probably would not more than 6.5~7 billion dollar .which is only ~2 billion dollar more then current sub order . i don't think paying this bill over next 10~15 year will be too much for PN.

Hi,

Yes---either way---the navy needs something in the 5000 tonnage range---.

 

[Signalian]

The frigate (in PN's case) would not be an offensive platform in as much as a means to defend the submarines and other surface ships (e.g. FACs, tankers, supply ships, etc) from enemy aircraft. It's no secret that the IN has been building a formidable naval air arm composed of some the best systems available in the world today, and these assets in full swing will threaten the PN's submarines. It is vital that a modern frigate with area wide (~50km) and possibly even wide area (~100km) anti-air capabilities be acquired to help defend against the IN's air arm.

To be honest I don't think the PN is ignoring this issue, but the lack of funds is forcing it to tolerate a sharply unfavourable situation. However, I think modern frigates with proper air defence capabilities will come, eventually.

I also think that subs can be divided into small group of 2-3 or even act alone in enemy seas. With a Frigate in area providing air cover, IN will certainly know there must be a sub in area too.
Subs can also be deployed thousands of km away from friendly waters for different kinds of ops depending on its stealth unless detected and compromised. Sending a frigate along is suicidal. Secondly, if IN thinks there is a sub in the area then it can engage IN aviation for hunting the sub and keep its assets engaged and that can also be a diversion for a penetration into other areas for the main force.

 

[redgriffin]

Hi,

At my age it is not the first time and it won't be the last time either that I hit my head.

Kid---you are a new poster and have enthusiaism in your posts----but you don't know didley sh-it about subs and submarine warfare. You can talk smart and that is fine---but it won't take you far.

Subs don't stop ships from leaving----they can either sink it or lay dormant----because once the sub surfaces or displays it location---it becomes vulnerable---once it stops at ship--- The moment the subs displays its position---it is doomed---it is dead----that is the analogy that it works under.

What if the ship is a decoy and is carrying depth charges---or that if a ship is a decoy and there is a anti submarine helicopter sitting on its decks under a tarp ready to take off----or what if the ship is a decoy and has an anti sub aircraft lurking in the skies a short distance away.

The surface ships are important---as a matter of fact they are more important under all circumstances---you never want to show the position of your subs under any circumstances unless you attack.

The surface ships act as policemen and take charge of any activity taking place on the seas.

Actually after reading this post I've deduced you Mr Khan have absolutely no idea of submarine & antisubmarine warfare & how difficult ASW in real life is. I'm not going to engage anymore as I'll be dealing with a self assured, self assumed know it all who has been called out many times on this forum by others.

 

[MastanKhan]

Actually after reading this post I've deduced you Mr Khan have absolutely no idea of submarine & antisubmarine warfare & how difficult ASW in real life is. I'm not going to engage anymore as I'll be dealing with a self assured, self assumed know it all who has been called out many times on this forum by others.

Guy,

Why don't to take the lead and explain how it is done---.Why put the burden on me all the time----. Why don't you correct it if you know how it is done----.

I am not know it all---. The failure is yours if you don't correct me with the right information.

 

[Bossman]

Actually after reading this post I've deduced you Mr Khan have absolutely no idea of submarine & antisubmarine warfare & how difficult ASW in real life is. I'm not going to engage anymore as I'll be dealing with a self assured, self assumed know it all who has been called out many times on this forum by others.

He knows a lot about submarine warfare because he has read all the Tom Clancey novels which features submarines.

 

[araz]

Actually after reading this post I've deduced you Mr Khan have absolutely no idea of submarine & antisubmarine warfare & how difficult ASW in real life is. I'm not going to engage anymore as I'll be dealing with a self assured, self assumed know it all who has been called out many times on this forum by others.

I really disagree with your post. We can agree to disagree but you and I are here to learn from one another and Mastan khan would be no different. If you know better share it and let us learn from you.
Araz

 

[Penguin]

Hi,

There is an issue with pak navy---. It does not have a potent frigate---. The F22 P are lightweight Frigates---.

The navy must have something that is heavier and more potent. The thing is that the situation in the region is changing by the day---on one side is India and on the other side is Iran coming into the game as a new player.
The Arabian sea is suddenly going to get crowded and there will be power positioning in the region. The U S navy is going to be pulling out its aircraft carrier out of the region pretty soon and with Gwadar port coming into operation---pak navy does need the presence of a stronger surface fleet.

Pakistan navy should reconsider the purchase of 8 submarine---and reduce it by 2 or 3 at this time. It should rather invest 1 billion dollars in 2 TYPE 054 Frigates and 3--4 upgraded version of Type F22P class frigates.

In 2 to 3 years from now---it can increase the order for the submarines.

Pakistan needs these so-called 'lightweight frigates': may I remind you that they are in fact longer and wider than the the ex-UK Type 21s and better armed?

F22P
Displacement: 2,500 tonnes (standard) and 3,144 tonnes (full load)
Length: 123.2 m (404 ft)
Beam: 13.8 m (45 ft)
Draught: 3.76 m (12.3 ft)

Compared to predecessors:

Type 12I (Leander)
Type: Frigate
Displacement: 2,500 tons (later 2,790 tons) standard
2,962 tons (later 3,300 tons) full load
Length: 113.4 metres (372 ft)
Beam: 13.1 metres (43 ft)
Draught: 4.5 metres (15 ft

Type 21 (Amazon)
Displacement:
As built: 2,750 tons (standard) and 3,250 tons (full load)
After strengthening: 2,860 tons (standard) and 3,360 tons (full load)
Length: 360 ft (110 m) (waterline)
384 ft (117 m) (overall)
Beam: 41.8 ft (12.7 m)
Draught: 19 ft (5.8 m)

Brooke class
Displacement: 2,640 tons std and 3,426 tons full
Length: 414 ft (126 m)
Beam: 44 ft (13 m)

Garcia class
Displacement: 2,624 tons (light)
Length: 414 ft 6 in (126.34 m)
Beam: 44 ft 1 in (13.44 m)
Draft: 24 ft 6 in (7.47 m)

Gearing class
Displacement: 2,616 tons standard; 3,460 tons full load
Length: 390.5 ft (119.0 m)
Beam: 40.9 ft (12.5 m)
Draft: 14.3 ft (4.4 m)

What Pakistan needs is to at least replace all 6 Type 21s. Possibly add another set of 4 F22P to the first four, but in improved version (see Algerian C28A), with a VL SAM. And maybe some ocean OPVs, like the big 3500 ton Dutch Holland class. This will be complementing the 8+3 Submarines and maritime patrol aircraft. In the aviation department, there are some more ASW helicopters needed. 6 Harbin Z9 need to be complemented by 6 larger MPA helicopters.
All these assest are dual role ASuW and ASW assets, with selfdefence capability.

 

[Nike]

Pakistan needs these so-called 'lightweight frigates': may I remind you that they are in fact longer and wider than the the ex-UK Type 21s and better armed?

F22P
Displacement: 2,500 tonnes (standard) and 3,144 tonnes (full load)
Length: 123.2 m (404 ft)
Beam: 13.8 m (45 ft)
Draught: 3.76 m (12.3 ft)

Compared to predecessors:

Type 12I (Leander)
Type: Frigate
Displacement: 2,500 tons (later 2,790 tons) standard
2,962 tons (later 3,300 tons) full load
Length: 113.4 metres (372 ft)
Beam: 13.1 metres (43 ft)
Draught: 4.5 metres (15 ft

Type 21 (Amazon)
Displacement:
As built: 2,750 tons (standard) and 3,250 tons (full load)
After strengthening: 2,860 tons (standard) and 3,360 tons (full load)
Length: 360 ft (110 m) (waterline)
384 ft (117 m) (overall)
Beam: 41.8 ft (12.7 m)
Draught: 19 ft (5.8 m)

Brooke class
Displacement: 2,640 tons std and 3,426 tons full
Length: 414 ft (126 m)
Beam: 44 ft (13 m)

Garcia class
Displacement: 2,624 tons (light)
Length: 414 ft 6 in (126.34 m)
Beam: 44 ft 1 in (13.44 m)
Draft: 24 ft 6 in (7.47 m)

Gearing class
Displacement: 2,616 tons standard; 3,460 tons full load
Length: 390.5 ft (119.0 m)
Beam: 40.9 ft (12.5 m)
Draft: 14.3 ft (4.4 m)

What Pakistan needs is to at least replace all 6 Type 21s. Possibly add another set of 4 F22P to the first four, but in improved version (see Algerian C28A), with a VL SAM. And maybe some ocean OPVs, like the big 3500 ton Dutch Holland class. This will be complementing the 8+3 Submarines and maritime patrol aircraft. In the aviation department, there are some more ASW helicopters needed. 6 Harbin Z9 need to be complemented by 6 larger MPA helicopters.
All these assest are dual role ASuW and ASW assets, with selfdefence capability.

i think that's what Pakistan Navy needed the most

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Surface ship deficiencies have been filled?
Air Arm augmentation is complete?

What are you smoking sir?

The type 21s are at least 10 years beyond their useful life. They need to be replaced.
Air arm? Mirage V are over due for their retirement as well, plus it is PAF running those, not dedicated navy aviation.

Heck even the lost P3Cs have not yet been made up.

Except for smaller FACs and Submarines, navy is in piss poor shape.

As I said, Navy is following a plan. The coast is 746 KM, and the AOR and mission is Defence. The assets are more than sufficient for defence of the SLOCs. I am not smoking anything. I am sure that the Plans Directorate of Pakistan Navy is slightly more ept than your analysis.

 

[araz]

As I said, Navy is following a plan. The coast is 746 KM, and the AOR and mission is Defence. The assets are more than sufficient for defence of the SLOCs. I am not smoking anything. I am sure that the Plans Directorate of Pakistan Navy is slightly more ept than your analysis.

NO @bilal Khan777!!!!!. We need as many frigates as the numbers in front of your names that need to be at least 20,000tonneswith LRAAMs, ICBMs and laser anti satellite weapons.This is my dream of world dominance just like stinky and the brain AKA nishan101. And in the mean while the country can go to the dogs and people can starve
No one bothers to understand how bad the economic situation in Pakistan is and how we are surviving on handouts from the world and IMF and Asian bank.Yet the malaika will descend from the heavens and bring truckloads of gold and dollars and the Zardaris and the Nawaz Shareefs and cronies will all turn into God fearing men and return all their loot along with all the interest to the country voluntarily and so will all the generals and while Maulana Diesel will not imbibe halwa and Puri(amongst other things unmentioned) and will not have the pleasure of the company of young boys and will not marry 16 yrs old just because they can. Oh and by the way the people will honestly pay all their taxes to Abdul Sattar edhi who will be the country's tax collector and >>>>>>>>>> ad infinitum.
Mufti Maulvi Oscar Halwa Puri for Khalifatul Muslimeen. Allah o Akbar
Araz
PS: How is that for a rant

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

NO @bilal Khan777!!!!!. We need as many frigates as the numbers in front of your names that need to be at least 20,000tonneswith LRAAMs, ICBMs and laser anti satellite weapons.This is my dream of world dominance just like stinky and the brain AKA nishan101. And in the mean while the country can go to the dogs and people can starve
No one bothers to understand how bad the economic situation in Pakistan is and how we are surviving on handouts from the world and IMF and Asian bank.Yet the malaika will descend from the heavens and bring truckloads of gold and dollars and the Zardaris and the Nawaz Shareefs and cronies will all turn into God fearing men and return all their loot along with all the interest to the country voluntarily and so will all the generals and while Maulana Diesel will not imbibe halwa and Puri(amongst other things unmentioned) and will not have the pleasure of the company of young boys and will not marry 16 yrs old just because they can. Oh and by the way the people will honestly pay all their taxes to Abdul Sattar edhi who will be the country's tax collector and >>>>>>>>>> ad infinitum.
Mufti Maulvi Oscar Halwa Puri for Khalifatul Muslimeen. Allah o Akbar
Araz
PS: How is that for a rant

Very witty indeed. However, PN is following a plan within its meagre means, and doing an excellent job. Mostly ignored, thankless service to the nation, which we don't acknowledge.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I think second strike capability is not the issue. Pakistan most probably have Nukes stationed outside Pakistan (with Saudis or Turks) for that purpose. I think main concern for PN is to neutralize IN offensive capability in case of war. Subs are the prefect weapons to do this. Just like single PNS Ghazi never let IN aircraft carrier to leave port in 65 war.

Second strike capability is THE ISSUE. Pakistan most probably DOES NOT have nukes stationed with the Saudis or Turks, the nukes are within the geographic boundaries of the state and in protection of SPD and NCA, only to be assembled for war in case war erupts. They are not tactical weapons for tactical doctrines.

 

[CHI RULES]

With limited air strike assets , especially deep strike jets we only have one option to strike back in case of naval warfare and that is our submarine force. It is much harder to search and destroy subsurface platforms than surface based assets.
If Pak gets 8 subs along with existing 3 augosta 90 and if upgraded 2 augosta 70s it shall be a formidable force to counter attack any hostile power. Further PN should go to add some midgets like North Korea for coastal defense.