Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

[CHI RULES]

scrap the deal spend money for demolish madrasas and open schools .

Dear instead of ending mdrssas we should improve them like our fore fathers. These madrsas produced renowned scientists and scholars of their time.

 

[Quwa]

I don't know why people here are scared or even worried about IN 200 ships.
First of all PN can't match IN not even in 2050 even if it starts building ships from today.
Now coming to the question.
I think PN didn't learn anything from 1971.
And also from operation trident and operation python.
They sgould look at 200 + ICG'S 70+ OPVs and fast attack vessels also Indian OPVs are not typical opvs like other countries they are well equipped also the bigger surprise for is that the follow on
GSL class OPVs will be bramhos missile equipped.
But the biggest surlrise for me in Indian navy 2026 plan was along with
200 ships they will have mini airforce which will have 600+ aircrafts which is well above the present numbers of PAF.
So for PN the affordable is to have aircrafts which can do ASW and also good air to surface strike operations and along with some submarines.
But still PN can't protect pakistan from blockade even though if PN have these potential aircrafts or even submarine it is just the matter of how much days it can resist. It just depends on IN to decide in how many days it wants to blocade pakistan.

The IN fleet is for the Indian coastline, not just its Western waters facing Pakistan. And while a great portion of the IN fleet can be directed at Pakistan, I think being able to support the U.S in Pacific Asia is a major goal of India, hence the massive fleet.

At the end of the day there's a threshold where fighting a smaller opponent just isn't feasible or easy. If IN were facing some 12 modern SSKs with a good MPA and potentially good surface fleet, then it'd have to seriously consider whether it would want to fight. The same applies to Pakistan of course.

 

[wowler]

The IN fleet is for the Indian coastline, not just its Western waters facing Pakistan. And while a great portion of the IN fleet can be directed at Pakistan, I think being able to support the U.S in Pacific Asia is a major goal of India, hence the massive fleet.

At the end of the day there's a threshold where fighting a smaller opponent just isn't feasible or easy. If IN were facing some 12 modern SSKs with a good MPA and potentially good surface fleet, then it'd have to seriously consider whether it would want to fight. The same applies to Pakistan of course.

Buddy i know that but as you kno that if a war breaks out tommorrow then IN will have its planning that how to contain PN actually pn is not a worry for IN if we look at it. But as IN has done it before it will do it again no matter what
also IN knew it from long ti.e that it lags behind china in submarines also i have been following IN and talking to experts about china and India gap in underwater capability but they didn 't seemed that much worried because IN planned well before to strengthen it's fleet by ASW capabilities that's why you see Kamorta class which are very advanced and features stealth of which second ship will launch next month, then comes P8I and also our frigates if you compare them with chinese then our frigates score well in AsW and chinese score well in AAW
IN is the only armed force which is well on its way to achieve what it wants.it would have been better if PN had good naval arm along with submarines which is less time consuming and also can be afforded in comparison with frigates and destroyers, why i say this is because it is not feasible for pakistan to go for surface fleet because
1.it is time consuming.
2. It is not feasible because of budget constraints
3. You are forgetting even if you had above two still you don't have ship building facilities to build so many ships and also expertise to build destroyers and frigates. But if yoyou buy them directly then the budget will increase.
And as i said earlier PN didn't learn from op python and trident but IN had and that's why you see ICG expansion which can act as a good feature for frontline defence and counter offensive IF there is any worry of your submarines.
After all as i would look at it. It will come down to days really if you ask me.
But you are entitled to your conclusion and i respect that.
Best of luck.

 

[Caprxl]

I don't know why people here are scared or even worried about IN 200 ships.
First of all PN can't match IN not even in 2050 even if it starts building ships from today.
Now coming to the question.
I think PN didn't learn anything from 1971.
And also from operation trident and operation python.
They sgould look at 200 + ICG'S 70+ OPVs and fast attack vessels also Indian OPVs are not typical opvs like other countries they are well equipped also the bigger surprise for is that the follow on
GSL class OPVs will be bramhos missile equipped.
But the biggest surlrise for me in Indian navy 2026 plan was along with
200 ships they will have mini airforce which will have 600+ aircrafts which is well above the present numbers of PAF.
So for PN the affordable is to have aircrafts which can do ASW and also good air to surface strike operations and along with some submarines.
But still PN can't protect pakistan from blockade even though if PN have these potential aircrafts or even submarine it is just the matter of how much days it can resist. It just depends on IN to decide in how many days it wants to blocade pakistan.

Another wet dreamer
Like we are gonna sit n pray IN lifts off navy blockade & like they will bring all of their assets here

 

[wowler]

Another wet dreamer
Like we are gonna sit n pray IN lifts off navy blockade & like they will bring all of their assets here

Lol as i said you are entitled to your wet dream and whate er your conclusion is good for you and i don't have anany problem with that.

And please don't quote me with your warnins that we will not sit back and pop up ships and AC from bellies if war breaks out.
And please do look into IN western fleet before commenting till then best of luck.

 

[Caprxl]

Lol as i said you are entitled to your wet dream and whate er your conclusion is good for you and i don't have anany problem with that.

And please don't quote me with your warnins that we will not sit back and pop up ships and AC from bellies if war breaks out.
And please do look into IN western fleet before commenting till then best of luck.

You can take your shitty back from this forum , don't bother to come here n puke your guts if you can't bear a reply. This is our forum and keyboard warriors like you are not welcomed. Just don't bother to bring your miserable self here n save us.
I have looked to IN fleets but I think you haven't read about Thresholds of Pakistan which also include blocking of our sea .

And same goes for your conclusions, I don't have any problem with em either , just stated mine against yours.

Now run off miserable scum.
Can't even tolerate a single argument n asking not to quote.
Just it is in your shitty brains, you guys can't help it. Won't quote you, can grant you this much wish.

 

[wowler]

You can take your shitty back from this forum , don't bother to come here n puke your guts if you can't bear a reply. This is our forum and keyboard warriors like you are not welcomed. Just don't bother to bring your miserable self here n save us.
I have looked to IN fleets but I think you haven't read about Thresholds of Pakistan which also include blocking of our sea .

And same goes for your conclusions, I don't have any problem with em either , just stated mine against yours.

Now run off miserable scum.
Can't even tolerate a single argument n asking not to quote.
Just it is in your shitty brains, you guys can't help it. Won't quote you, can grant you this much wish.

Lol so mush pisssed.
Yes i know about pakistan threshold that after being blocked PN will want to use nuke but last time i checked you don't have nuuke subs but india will so think twice before any N war.

 

[Quwa]

Buddy i know that but as you kno that if a war breaks out tommorrow then IN will have its planning that how to contain PN actually pn is not a worry for IN if we look at it. But as IN has done it before it will do it again no matter what
also IN knew it from long ti.e that it lags behind china in submarines also i have been following IN and talking to experts about china and India gap in underwater capability but they didn 't seemed that much worried because IN planned well before to strengthen it's fleet by ASW capabilities that's why you see Kamorta class which are very advanced and features stealth of which second ship will launch next month, then comes P8I and also our frigates if you compare them with chinese then our frigates score well in AsW and chinese score well in AAW
IN is the only armed force which is well on its way to achieve what it wants.it would have been better if PN had good naval arm along with submarines which is less time consuming and also can be afforded in comparison with frigates and destroyers, why i say this is because it is not feasible for pakistan to go for surface fleet because
1.it is time consuming.
2. It is not feasible because of budget constraints
3. You are forgetting even if you had above two still you don't have ship building facilities to build so many ships and also expertise to build destroyers and frigates. But if yoyou buy them directly then the budget will increase.
And as i said earlier PN didn't learn from op python and trident but IN had and that's why you see ICG expansion which can act as a good feature for frontline defence and counter offensive IF there is any worry of your submarines.
After all as i would look at it. It will come down to days really if you ask me.
But you are entitled to your conclusion and i respect that.
Best of luck.

It's been 44 years since 1971, things have changed, and yes, the nuclear dimension is the critical differentiator. That said, that wasn't the threshold I was referring to... When was the last time any navy took on a force of 12 or so SSKs (let's assume the current on-paper roadmaps of PN and IN are going ahead)? What about foes who *both* have modern stand-off weaponry? Never? It'd be very unwise to extrapolate the events of the past to the reality of today and the near future. As I said, the threshold for anyone to go and fight a war is too dense now, only a power with incredible ambitions (on either side) would want to fight.

 

[wowler]

It's been 44 years since 1971, things have changed, and yes, the nuclear dimension is the critical differentiator. That said, that wasn't the threshold I was referring to... When was the last time any navy took on a force of 12 or so SSKs (let's assume the current on-paper roadmaps of PN and IN are going ahead)? What about foes who *both* have modern stand-off weaponry? Never? It'd be very unwise to extrapolate the events of the past to the reality of today and the near future. As I said, the threshold for anyone to go and fight a war is too dense now, only a power with incredible ambitions (on either side) would want to fight.

Who said that anyone wants to fight.
But if a war breaks out then navy will surely have its plans.
But you are mistaken my friend in wars the strategy is not made if anyone is fearing some specifical weapon of the enemy the strategy is made to destroy that particular weapon so that they can win.
And looking at IN they have ample resources to take on your submarines let alone ASW weapons such as p8I, corvettes but IN submarines are capable of doing it which are new generation and ranked as no 1 such as scorpenes which will be equipped with AIP which will be far more stealthy than your submarines, and the 75I will be new generation and will be bigger than scorpenes.
So the war is not won by fearing the weapons of opponents but by making strategies and plan, and IN is pretty much good than that.
Also you said that 1971 has long gone but can you tell me that did PN lealearn from that mistakes, No that's why you see no surface fleet.
And it is not that IN don't know of the current scenario they know that's why they will plan according to the threshold because they know they are facing a navy without any surface fleet.
Yes if a war breaks out than you can think that your submarines can have upper hand in the beginning because IN will be the agressor so your submarines can sit and take out any ship approaching and that's where OPVs can be used for baiting and once the submarine gets detected than that's a roast.
I am not sasaying that IN will nof suffer in the beginning but as i said wars are not won bh fearing but by planes and i don't think IN will fear and wait for your threshold.
Yes i haven't seen 12 SSKs being taken on by any country but there always a ffirst time and if you think that any countey will fear to war for the sake of those 12 SSKs then it will be stupidity and also as i said there could have been foes if your navy would have had a perfect combination of small surface, underwater and air capabilities but that is a not the case.
So i don't know why you think that Indian navy will find it hard for to deal with SSKs wyen it have ample resources in its kitty to take care of and make a plan.

 

[Quwa]

Who said that anyone wants to fight.
But if a war breaks out then navy will surely have its plans.
But you are mistaken my friend in wars the strategy is not made if anyone is fearing some specifical weapon of the enemy the strategy is made to destroy that particular weapon so that they can win.
And looking at IN they have ample resources to take on your submarines let alone ASW weapons such as p8I, corvettes but IN submarines are capable of doing it which are new generation and ranked as no 1 such as scorpenes which will be equipped with AIP which will be far more stealthy than your submarines, and the 75I will be new generation and will be bigger than scorpenes.
So the war is not won by fearing the weapons of opponents but by making strategies and plan, and IN is pretty much good than that.
Also you said that 1971 has long gone but can you tell me that did PN lealearn from that mistakes, No that's why you see no surface fleet.
And it is not that IN don't know of the current scenario they know that's why they will plan according to the threshold because they know they are facing a navy without any surface fleet.
Yes if a war breaks out than you can think that your submarines can have upper hand in the beginning because IN will be the agressor so your submarines can sit and take out any ship approaching and that's where OPVs can be used for baiting and once the submarine gets detected than that's a roast.
I am not sasaying that IN will nof suffer in the beginning but as i said wars are not won bh fearing but by planes and i don't think IN will fear and wait for your threshold.
Yes i haven't seen 12 SSKs being taken on by any country but there always a ffirst time and if you think that any countey will fear to war for the sake of those 12 SSKs then it will be stupidity and also as i said there could have been foes if your navy would have had a perfect combination of small surface, underwater and air capabilities but that is a not the case.
So i don't know why you think that Indian navy will find it hard for to deal with SSKs wyen it have ample resources in its kitty to take care of and make a plan.

I think India would fear war against those 12 SSKs (when taken in context of the rest of Pakistan). Not saying Pakistan wouldn't worry about war either, it certainly would, but there's no precedent for two modern powers fighting one another in recent years. No one knows what the true scale of damage, on either side, would be, hence I think you're seriously overstating the confidence IN has in its capabilities. No one is doubting that the IN is miles ahead of PN, nor is anyone disputing that IN has a world class footing. All I am saying is that the gap enough under any situation to make 12 SSKs a trivial thing. Am example, P8Is are capable of taking out the SSKs, but the SSKs can fire SLCMs at Indian ports, air fields, etc. Both scenarios are assumptions based on theory, no one knows what the actual margin of success, and the impact of the success (or failure) would be.

 

[niaz]

SSK is essentially an offensive weapon platform relying on stealth. Undoubtedly it is a question of who wins the game of hide & seek. However, no matter how competent the anti-sub platforms, one or two SSK’s would always manage to slip through the net.

State of that art hunter killer submarines are extremely potent war machines. With passive SONAR an SSK can identify and count the targets & their positions in the area. Subsequently it depends upon how many torpedoes & anti-ship missile it can fire before its presence is detected.

State of the art SSK equiped with low probability intercept satellite link, can also convey this information to friendly attack aircrafts and /or other friendly submarines.

Thus a single SSK is capable of taking out very high value targets such as an aircraft carrier and / or one or two escort vessels before being detected and hunted down. In the scenario where one SSK attacks and then leads her attackers in the path of another SSK lying in ambush; a large flotilla could possibly be crippled by a couple of expertly handled missile firing SSK’s

I am not claiming that Pak Navy SSK's would be capable of doing all of the above, nevertheless the potential is there.This is primarily the reason why PN is prioritizing acquisition of Chinese SSK’s

 

[Indian Jatt]

Type 54 frigates would be a great addition to PN......but how many should be odered like PN is alrwady operating type 22's and soon blk 2 would also be their with improved qualities......

scrap the deal spend money for demolish madrasas and open schools .

Imran saab kya keh rahe hai????

 

[wowler]

I think India would fear war against those 12 SSKs (when taken in context of the rest of Pakistan). Not saying Pakistan wouldn't worry about war either, it certainly would, but there's no precedent for two modern powers fighting one another in recent years. No one knows what the true scale of damage, on either side, would be, hence I think you're seriously overstating the confidence IN has in its capabilities. No one is doubting that the IN is miles ahead of PN, nor is anyone disputing that IN has a world class footing. All I am saying is that the gap enough under any situation to make 12 SSKs a trivial thing. Am example, P8Is are capable of taking out the SSKs, but the SSKs can fire SLCMs at Indian ports, air fields, etc. Both scenarios are assumptions based on theory, no one knows what the actual margin of success, and the impact of the success (or failure) would be.

Yep i agree but what you are forgetting is a country can't fully be dependent on submarines for protection of it shores. You need surface fleet to go with it which is missing by a long mile as compared to India.
What i am saying is that in your case your submarines will be front line defense and offense.
So your submarines will have to engage indian ships in order to avoid blockade and i don't know how it can do multi tasking against surface fleet and a aerial target.
Now let me answer your question on submarines firing missile to indian ports?
First of all your submarines will be front line defense and counter offense because of absence of surface fleet.
And they will have to overcome all those ships to fire at ports bcause if it fires before that then it is a dead ship because of its location.
And also firing slcm counts somewhaht as second strike and offensive which is rare because submarines will be playing defensive role to protect ports.
The submarines which you have ordered according to me is not big enough for cruise missile capability.
Now tell me which role you want them to play offensive or defensive.
If it goes offensive then it is a dead meat because of being getting pinpointed and then destroyed by ASW platforms from air and also from surface and you are forgetting that i am not counting our submarines to hunt your submarines yet bcoz they will act as a second strike capability thats why you see so many asw platforms. Which cannot be said on your side because of mising of surface fleet.
And if it goes defensive then i don't know how they will hold such a large surface fleet with asw platforms and other asw platforms in air simultaneously.
The question here is offensive or defensive.
And as far as i see pakistan brought submarines to secure its ports and be defensive and also to not alow blockade so in such scenario forget all offensive tactics of submarines.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The sub's presence will be noted the moment the first torpedo tube is flooded with sea water just before the launch.

 

[Quwa]

Yep i agree but what you are forgetting is a country can't fully be dependent on submarines for protection of it shores. You need surface fleet to go with it which is missing by a long mile as compared to India.
What i am saying is that in your case your submarines will be front line defense and offense.
So your submarines will have to engage indian ships in order to avoid blockade and i don't know how it can do multi tasking against surface fleet and a aerial target.
Now let me answer your question on submarines firing missile to indian ports?
First of all your submarines will be front line defense and counter offense because of absence of surface fleet.
And they will have to overcome all those ships to fire at ports bcause if it fires before that then it is a dead ship because of its location.
And also firing slcm counts somewhaht as second strike and offensive which is rare because submarines will be playing defensive role to protect ports.
The submarines which you have ordered according to me is not big enough for cruise missile capability.
Now tell me which role you want them to play offensive or defensive.
If it goes offensive then it is a dead meat because of being getting pinpointed and then destroyed by ASW platforms from air and also from surface and you are forgetting that i am not counting our submarines to hunt your submarines yet bcoz they will act as a second strike capability thats why you see so many asw platforms. Which cannot be said on your side because of mising of surface fleet.
And if it goes defensive then i don't know how they will hold such a large surface fleet with asw platforms and other asw platforms in air simultaneously.
The question here is offensive or defensive.
And as far as i see pakistan brought submarines to secure its ports and be defensive and also to not alow blockade so in such scenario forget all offensive tactics of submarines.

Overall I agree, but I'll caution on the point that PN wants to purely focus on submarines. The focus has more to do with limited finances than anything else. If it could, it would have ordered a fair number of modern frigates as well.