PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[Dash]

That is the most valid argument as Pakistan paid a heavy price in 1965 ad 71 for using F104s and F86 against India and had to buy spares from black market after the ban placed by US. So what is absurd here?????

But they still used it, didn't they?? You expect Pakistan to be a fool when you think they won't.
What happens later is irrelevant in the context

 

[Humble Analyst]

But they still used it, didn't they?? You expect Pakistan to be a fool when you think they won't.
What happens later is irrelevant in the context

Do you understand todays technology and the strings attached. Most of the systems in F16 especially in block 52 are based on US GPS systems so do I have to spell out everything or...

 

[MKC]

India cried on the sale of just 8 F 16 to PAF. Keeping in view IAF using 300+ SU 30 , india will never ever let the SU 35 deal happen. india is using a lot of Russian military hardware . Pakistan can only buy Russian choppers and that low tech equipment which does not threaten India. Second, I am not talking about about quality pf aircrafts. I am talking about their roles. both JF 17 and Gripen are Light combat aircraft . so why need to waste money on same platform. rather, we should evolve jf 17.same goes to J 10 bcoz both F 16 and J10 are medium multirole ac . Now, PAF needs a twin engine multirole 4 +++ gen aircraft for naval and deep strike role. Third, Saudis are vary willing to sign a defence pact with Pakistan. Pakistan needs to distance itself from Iran bcoz we can gain nothing from Iranians.

Do you think why India didn't protest against Viper helicopters?
because F16 sell included aid while Vipers not, India can protest when any country gives military aid, if that country has good relation with India especially US as only US is giving aid not any other country gives much military aid.
I don't know about our govt but I think if Russia gets good amount then India may not protest, I can't confirm.

If you care to read I am countering the idea of increasing subs without increasing the surface and air assets. So I do not understand the question. However if the subs are equipped with AIP system and are quieter than they can operate independently provided the enemy assets are not operating freely and in high numbers on surface and in the air.

You are talking like operational ASW weapons in IN aren't capable of detecting Augosta 90B & S20 class submarine, I don't know much but I don't think India will buy 260million dollar P8I if these aren't capable of detecting advanced submarines, also most of IN surface ships have advanced ASW capability. 4+8 Kamorta class & 16 upcoming GRSE ASW-SWC corvettes are specially designed for ASW warfare.
So I don't know just adding more subs without ships are more dangerous or less.

 

[sathya]

Very good analysis an I have the same thoughts. F16 bloc 52 are supplied against terrorism so its role against India is not really practical. As the hostilities break the first action PAF need to take is take out FOBs perform SEAD operations including AWACS and AAR while countering enemy similar offensive. India will move back their assets and without deep penetration Pakistan will reach critical thresholds quickly. So either we rely on the final deterrence fully (not wise as we should have the capability to deny air superiority for considerable tie) or we take measures to counter the conventional war possibility. We do not have to match 1 for 1 because India will not deploy more than half of the planes against Pakistan.


F 16 use against India will not be authorized by US so please wake up.

USA will not authorise offence , but will allow defence ..
Windjammer gave hint based on F16 Israel vs Egypt rafale I guess .

 

[Dash]

Do you understand todays technology and the strings attached. Most of the systems in F16 especially in block 52 are based on US GPS systems so do I have to spell out everything or...

convince that to your airforce and hear what they say.

 

[sathya]

5 years is a long time so how long will it take for the "contingency" plane to start. and what is the contingincy plan the j31 is more thn 5 years off. so what is it?

My guess is since Rafale comes with AESA , USA will allow AESA exports to Pakistan .. Will they ?

 

[shah1398]

Just to add, Pakistan needs to somehow gain the ability to indigeniously design and produce world class high tech fighter jets. Apart from China, we cannot trust any other nation to give us advanced or quality fighter jets. I'm a layman in this regard, any informed or learned posters can give any suggestions on how this can be achieved?

Sir like i said we have to enter in JV with friendlies like China and Turkey. It wud be a day of ultimate joy for me if Pak-Sino-Turk trio enter into a JV for a world class fighter on footings of Typhoons project. These platforms can then be exported to countries in GCC, Azerbaijan, Egypt etc very easily. This wud be the very first such project of this region (right now m not considering PAKFA as JV as balance is totally titled towards Russia).

 

[dadeechi]

The 8 points that you have mentioned do not completely describe the situation. Why?

1) The true picture of how many Rafales are actually being bought is still not known.
2) Where are these Rafales be stationed.
3) The kind of war strategy IAF would device for the Rafales.
4) What other assets would be available along with the Rafales.
5) Will the IN also buy Rafale M's if yes then how many and what kind of battle scenario would that make.

The Role of PAF in the beginning was to have a hard hitting force which would have latest and best equipment. After the 1965 war this has become a dream. The threat of sanctions and non availability of advance weapons and delivery systems really limits the capabilities of deep strike and air supremacy that was attained in 1965.

Looking at present or the 2-4 years that PAF has before considerable number of Rafales enter IAF service we can only see that PAF is only capable of denial of airspace over Pakistan. This conclusion is evident from the limited number of F-16s PAF has as compared to SU-30 MKI.

What should be done?
IMO
1) Increase the number of JF-17 blk 3 ASAP.
2) Ask China to expedite the J-31
3) Join some SAM program and build low, medium, and high altitude locally.
4) Join local production of a decent attack helicopter.
5) Increase the number of fast attack boats for coastal defences.
6) Increase the number of Submarines from the planed 13 to 20.
7) Try to purchase Corvettes from Russia with TOT.
8) Make a wall on the Western Boarder with Afghanistan.
9) Upgrade the radar systems.

@Manticore can you change the topic of the post to:

"Ramifications For Pakistan Against The Indian Dream Of Becoming A Super Power"

One point to note is the timing.

RAFALEs would be inducted into IAF ~2020. J-31 should be available to Pakistan by then.

 

[HAIDER]

With the ongoing rafale acquisation by India, a lot of threads on the ramifications are bound to open in the paf section.

MODS will monitor this thread to keep it ON-TOPIC


To New Members;
Any poster posting in urdu or slang will be immediately thread banned. I am sick and tired of watching people posting urdu in english alphabets and will start to actively infract them

I have written a template in my first post in this thread. So that new/young members dont post one liners instead have an idea where to take the content of the thread.

You can pick any of the points in my template to discuss or you can discuss all the points briefly yet comprehensively like milspec just did.

Avoid offtopic one liners or you wont be taken seriously. Morover it takes the forum quality down.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-the-...les-sale-to-india.427156/page-3#ixzz463l71Hje

Discussion should revolve around these points--- useless posts will be deleted, posters thread banned




1--What is PAF's priority [ Land defence,Sea denial, deep attacks with heavy bombs or smart ammunitions ] ?


2--Can jf-17 completely meet those demands/doctrine even after aesa/ifr probe/composites/strengthened structure/tweaked engine?


3--If not what are the options and possible numbers? Is the cost of buying/ training/maintenance/spare parts/ years to build strategy/ availability rate worth the hassle?


4--S300 copies vs introduction of another 4.5 gen fighter


5--Should we wait another decade for j31 or should we buy some 4.5 gen fighter instead and develop tactics in the meanwhile


6--To Indian posters, what would you suggest PAF do OTHER than bolstering economy and admitting that India is a super power


7--Is the replacement of 190 old fighters with a BVR capable light fighter sufficient keeping in view Pakistan's economy?


8--J10 and JF-17 may have similar capability but they DON'T have SAME capability. Are the J-10 an ideal replacement for the mirage squadrons?


9--Is there any chance of getting reliable subsystems for jft from the French?

10--Other than numbers, what capability rafale brings to IAF, which they wont exploit in the su30 including its naval role

11-- Importance of loiter time in war

12--Are destroyers, submarines, helicopters, s300 derivatives and cruise missiles the answer?

13--Importance of joint ventures for subsystems avionics / ammunitions with countries other than China

This is now good product for Pakistan to sell Indian Rafale procurement in the market and get more F16 from US. A " pressure product " to get more .

 

[optimisticlad]

herd
həːd/
noun

1. 1.
   a large group of animals,

hahahahaah cant stop laughing...
you got good sense of humor ...........

 

[proud_indian]

Sir like i said we have to enter in JV with friendlies like China and Turkey. It wud be a day of ultimate joy for me if Pak-Sino-Turk trio enter into a JV for a world class fighter on footings of Typhoons project. These platforms can then be exported to countries in GCC, Azerbaijan, Egypt etc very easily. This wud be the very first such project of this region (right now m not considering PAKFA as JV as balance is totally titled towards Russia).

sir,
for the sake of argument , would you please elaborate why would a country like china like to form a JV for a high end plane lets say typhoon class with pakistan.

What pakistan can add to this equation that china doesn't poses already?
Is it the money or technology? What would be the pakistan's contribution to this venture?

Do you have any idea what kind of money is required to start such ventures and what this class of plane would bring to china that it doesn't posses already?

 

[MKC]

Sir like i said we have to enter in JV with friendlies like China and Turkey. It wud be a day of ultimate joy for me if Pak-Sino-Turk trio enter into a JV for a world class fighter on footings of Typhoons project. These platforms can then be exported to countries in GCC, Azerbaijan, Egypt etc very easily. This wud be the very first such project of this region (right now m not considering PAKFA as JV as balance is totally titled towards Russia).

Basically you are talking about a JV between a NATO member & China, think again...
China-Turkey relations are too bad you should look into reality.
Chinese–Turkish relations
July 2009 Ürümqi riots
2015 anti-China protests in Turkey
AIK Turkey get huge aid from US, that also is a big factor. But I don't know you haven't joined TAI FX program.

 

[majid mehmood]

guys it would be better if go for su 35
just think india got 36 rafale for 9 billion
while paf can get 36 su 35 for just 3 billion
so to balance the power we should go for around 24-36 su 35
and chinese s300 systems which might cost us just 5 billion $$ or LESS
guys i dont think so 5 billion is a much problem as 3 billion they were given to navy for 8 subs and some equipment

 

[shah1398]

sir,
for the sake of argument , would you please elaborate why would a country like china like to form a JV for a high end plane lets say typhoon class with pakistan.

What pakistan can add to this equation that china doesn't poses already?
Is it the money or technology? What would be the pakistan's contribution to this venture?

Do you have any idea what kind of money is required to start such ventures and what this class of plane would bring to china that it doesn't posses already?

Dear Sir,
Seems like U are underestimating capabilities of our organisations like NESCOM, AWC, PEC and not to forget PAC etc. We have trained manpower and capable brains in almost every field and JVs ensure that those brains are used for longer time and do not remain idle. For instance just one small example i wud like to quote is that ECS system of Thunder was completely redesigned by just one Pakistani brain. He is the guy who was employed by NASA too while pursuing his PhD at states from PAF side. There are many such examples in every field. With regards to money, that can always be arranged. One must just have will. Plus such a JV wud kick start R&D in Pakistan.

Basically you are talking about a JV between a NATO member & China, think again...
China-Turkey relations are too bad you should look into reality.
Chinese–Turkish relations
July 2009 Ürümqi riots
2015 anti-China protests in Turkey
AIK Turkey get huge aid from US, that also is a big factor. But I don't know you haven't joined TAI FX program.

Is there any bar on a NATO country to indulge in any kind of project with China? Pakistan can always be a binding factor between both. Mutual problems can always be sorted out.

 

[proud_indian]

Dear Sir,
Seems like U are underestimating capabilities of our organisations like NESCOM, AWC, PEC and not to forget PAC etc. We have trained manpower and capable brains in almost every field and JVs ensure that those brains are used for longer time and do not remain idle. For instance just one small example i wud like to quote is that ECS system of Thunder was completely redesigned by just one Pakistani brain. He is the guy who was employed by NASA too while pursuing his PhD at states from PAF side. There are many such examples in every field. With regards to money, that can always be arranged. One must just have will. Plus such a JV wud kick start R&D in Pakistan.

Sir.
with due respect, I asked what Pakistan bring to the table that china doesn't already posses or your technical manpower are more competent than of china's.