With the ongoing rafale acquisation by India, a lot of threads on the ramifications are bound to open in the paf section.
MODS will monitor this thread to keep it ON-TOPIC
To New Members;
Any poster posting in urdu or slang will be immediately thread banned. I am sick and tired of watching people posting urdu in english alphabets and will start to actively infract them
I have written a template in my first post in this thread. So that new/young members dont post one liners instead have an idea where to take the content of the thread.
You can pick any of the points in my template to discuss or you can discuss all the points briefly yet comprehensively like milspec just did.
Avoid offtopic one liners or you wont be taken seriously. Morover it takes the forum quality down.
Source:
https://defence.pk/threads/paf-the-...les-sale-to-india.427156/page-3#ixzz463l71Hje
Discussion should revolve around these points--- useless posts will be deleted, posters thread banned
1--What is PAF's priority [ Land defence,Sea denial, deep attacks with heavy bombs or smart ammunitions ] ?
2--Can jf-17 completely meet those demands/doctrine even after aesa/ifr probe/composites/strengthened structure/tweaked engine?
3--If not what are the options and possible numbers? Is the cost of buying/ training/maintenance/spare parts/ years to build strategy/ availability rate worth the hassle?
4--S300 copies vs introduction of another 4.5 gen fighter
5--Should we wait another decade for j31 or should we buy some 4.5 gen fighter instead and develop tactics in the meanwhile
6--To Indian posters, what would you suggest PAF do OTHER than bolstering economy and admitting that India is a super power
7--Is the replacement of 190 old fighters with a BVR capable light fighter sufficient keeping in view Pakistan's economy?
8--J10 and JF-17 may have similar capability but they DON'T have SAME capability. Are the J-10 an ideal replacement for the mirage squadrons?
9--Is there any chance of getting reliable subsystems for jft from the French?
10--Other than numbers, what capability rafale brings to IAF, which they wont exploit in the su30 including its naval role
11-- Importance of loiter time in war
12--Are destroyers, submarines, helicopters, s300 derivatives and cruise missiles the answer?
13--Importance of joint ventures for subsystems avionics / ammunitions with countries other than China
I will respond to only point 6, because that's what
@Manticore asked from the Indian Member.
1. The big question is does Pakistani Armed forces makes strategies against one weapon on One by One basis, the answer is probably no !! So, why PAF or pakistani strategy should be be only to counter Rafale, rather the PAF should, think of is to provide, its logical reason of their existance which is to provide, the Air Security to its country i.e Pakistan.
2. The first question should, be why IAF is acquiring Rafale, and what strategy or the doctrine would be changed by the IAF. The short answer is the IAF/India is now planning for the short, decisive, high intensity, net centric, sharp war, and to achieve its objective, in the shortest period of time. So When IAF already have Su-30MKI Airsuperiority fighter planes in large number, which is going to have the deep upgradation to the Super Sukhoi Standard, Mig 29 upgradation going on to Mig 29 UPG, Mirrage 2000 to Mirrage 2000 UPG, and for the tactical strike the Jaguar, now planned for the Darin -3 Upgradation. What was the need for the Rafale, and for what IAF was so desperate to get.
3. Lets focus on the PAF without the early warning System, AWACS and with AWACS. The Gulf war have showed, that the technology plays a crucial role, in the war, and one of the reason, for the NATO to have an uper hand during the Gulf war, was the total Situation Awareness of the real war situation, which provides the NATO pilots, to have an edge over the Iraqi pilots. One NATO comander comments, that even if the IRAQI's have the western aircrafts, and the NATO with the Soviet combat planes, the result would have been the Same.
So even if the Jaguar, the deep Strike specialized combat bomber of the IAF, is able to fly at the low altitude (50 Mt above the ground), it can avoid the ground radar detection with terrain following, terrain following capability, but with the AWAAC deployed in the area, could still detect, the Jaguars flying at low altitude, as high speed.
So what have changed by the new technologies, for that read bellow.
4 For an Airforce, to achieve an objectives, have to play various roles -- Air Superiority, SEAD, DEAD, EW Warfare, Ground Attack, Tactical Interdiction, CAS, Recce, Counter Air operation, transportation and support, refuel tankers, SIGNIT etc etc. If you check out what IAF is now planning you will find out few changes in the doctrine and the roles.
- For the CAS, the planes like HAWK equipped with the IRST can provide, due to the availability of the LGB kits, designated by the laser targeting equipment, even from the soldier on the tactical ground. That's why the plan for the Combat Hawk by HAL and BAE, which can act as LIFT during the peace situation, and as CAS aircraft during the war.
- The availability, of the long range, standoff weapons, and Air to ground and Ground to ground Cruise Missiles have allowed the pilot to attack the ground target with accuracy, from the high or medium altitude, and from the safer strandoff distance. Thus there is no need for the dedicated Ground attack Aircraft such as MIG-27, and the job would be fullfilled by the JAGUAR Darin-3 with the smart GPU Munition against the armoured and mobile targets.
- With the proliferation of the HOBS Missiles such as deadly R-73, Python 4/5, IRIS-T, AIM-9X, the WVR fight become the mutual suicide to both the opponent (HARA KARI). So the old WVR dogfight, would be avoided by all the Pilot, with Brain in their Skull, and the focus, would be on the long range BVR fight. And in case of the BVR fight, the upper hand is for those, who have better Radar, (Long Range, better detection, AESA), Better Countermeasures such as DIRCM, Jammers, decoys, and better sensors and offcourse better tactics, and training. So how IAF is transfroming itself -- R-77, R-23, Bars N01M, virgilus Jammers, EL/L-8222, and lot of international war games, training exercises etc.
- IAF, was reluctant to accept, the LCA Tejas MK-1 in 2012, a 4th Gen. fighter plane, which exceeded the MIG-21 Bison in most of the technologies, and capability, but rather only excepted to induct 100 + Birds only with the SOP 2018 Standard, which includes EL/M-AESA from Elta, F-404 IN20 Engine from GE, Aerial Refuel Probe, and with the deadly Python 5, and Derby ER Long range BVRAAM, for the Interceptor Role of the Mig-21. The reason was that without SOP-2018, the LCA MK-1 didn't fit into the IAF new revised Doctorine.
- So Does Rafale is for the SEAD/DEAD or against AWAACs and to counter the Pakistani Air Defense early on the war between India or Pakistan or China ?? Probably No -- For China, the tactics of IAF should be defensive, and for Pakistan, she don't possess strong Air Defense and also, India already have planes and UAV to do so. With the long range Brahmos Cruise Missiles, and with the SEAD/DEAD Specific Super Sukhoi Su-30 MKI, armed with A2G Brahmos, the airbases of the Pakistani AWAACs are going to be the first target.
- One reason, which few experts explain, is that the Rafale, have the Low altitude flying capability, with low RCS, terrain hugging, terrain following, ground mapping and targetting capability, for which the MKI is not certified by its OEM's, and though BARS N01 is a good and powerful A2A Radar, with ground targetting capability, and is going for the AESA Upgrade, with the Super Sukhoi Upgrade, but what is important to note that the Russian Radars and algorithm are still inferior to the western or the Israeli to locate the Ground target, from the ground Clutter.
- The Future plans for IAF -- FGFA -- JV 5th Generation LO Stealth fighter Plane, Stealth Combat USAV , AURA/Ghatak , Airforce specific Geo stationary Satellite from ISRO , Indegenous Long Range SAM (Based on AAD Ashwin), Long Range BVR ASTRA MK-2, IAF futuristic Battlefield Mangement System, Hell lot of UAV from Israel, and USA for Survellance, Long Range Anti Radiation Missiles. This completely shows, that IAF is preparing itself for the 5th Generation Air Warfare. For the starter the 5th Gen Air warfare, is not specifically the warfare by the so called Stealth Fighter planes like F-22, F-35, or J-20. 2 More Phalcon AWAACs from Israel, and DRDO Radome AWAACs --6 in number based on Airbus A-330, and EMB-149.
- The future is the sensor fusion that links its pilot to a wealth of information. The aircraft which can also “talk to” nearly every other platform on the battlefield, the fighter planes which are designed with identical, completely interoperable sensing capabilities that will produce unprecedented situational and battlespace awareness.
- Though planes like Rafale, EF-2000, F-15-E, Su--35 are not designed as the LO or Stealth planes, but they are capable platform, to play part in the 5th Generation, net centric Air warfare.
5. As seen above, the main focus of the IAF is now on the 5th Gen. Warfare, which is slowly taking shape and will need another 10-15 years, and in that Rafale easily fits into the IAF doctorine. There was hell lot of talks and discussion on the PDF space, about the delay with the Rafale Deal, and speculated news of the Deal Cancel, and India talking to build F-16, F-18 SH, Saab Grippen, EF-2000, or More MKI. but the Deal, is very much strategic in nature How ??
- M88 Upgrade talks -- Why ?? because, for the future upgrade, you need to add more LRU's and with that the planes becomes more Bulky, and needs more powerful engine.
- Scorpean Deal -- UAE too is acquiring Scorpean, and Rafale.
- Aura USAV <----> French nUERON stealth USAV.
- Make in India --- Building the planes in India will lower the cost, that's what Russia was doing for so many years with the MKI, and spares build in India, for the International market.
6. Now last how to counter all this by PAF -- This can be countered by PAF/Pakistan is by putting the effort and resource to acquire the 5th Generation capability.
@MastanKhan have said in this forum many times, the need for the Superiority Fighter plane, and he is correct, because for the likes of J-31 Stealth Planes, to get the maximum benifits, the PAF need the Air Superiority Plane like F-15-E, EF-2000, or SU-35.
Though I think, the PAF should have inducted J-10 instead of JF-17 because, J-10 have more space for the upgradation, and it is an excellent design, and will be the backbone of the PLAAF, and would have ensure the PAF, the future upgrade by the Chinese, and could have easily customized it for the PAF need, but that was PAF decission, and the economical condition or the thinking of the PAF decission makers, and now there is no good to discuss that thing. So what should be the PAF response right now. Looking at the budget constrain, the PAF should look toward the China and the USA, which can provide the high end weapon with the loans.
- Ask China for the KLJ-500 AEW EC
- Join J-31 stealth fighter plane project, and become the first customer cum customization as per PAF need.
- Atleast One Air Superiority fighter plane.
- Long Range BVR's and HOBS missiles
- Try to get the AESA MMR for F-16 Block 52 and IRST from USA.
- Long Range SAMs and robust airdefence systems.
- C4I integration, will intensive fibre optical network to all the bases.
These are my recomendations, and would like to be a readers with the seniors giving their inputs and views on this thread.
1) Increase the number of JF-17 blk 3 with Selex AESA radar & avionics.
2) Put some token money in J-31 or TFX program for early development. Meanwhile work on JF-17 stealth version should be initiated.
3) Get A-darter & Marlin BVR missiles with HMDS and integrate on all JF-17 blocks.
4) Get 36 customized Su-35s from Russia (having AESA-N050-Radar & K-77M bvr missiles) with approval for procurement of 60 Chinese J-11D having AL-37FU/ 117S thrust-vectoring turbofan engines. Please note that Procurement of Su-35 will open the gate for Chinese J-10s & other J series aircrafts with Russian engines.
5) Get S-350E Vityaz missile systems from Russia & Marlin SAM system from SA/Brazil for PAF.
6) Get Pantsyr-2 missile systems from Russia with Tot & Umkhonto IR Block II system for army air defence.
7) Join local production of a Mi-28 attack helicopter with dual control & 360° millimetre-wave radar system.
8) Replace all old MPDR systems with Turkish KALKAN Air Defence Radar
9) All fire control radars for guns and short range missiles should be replaced with ASELSAN Mobile Search 3D Radar.
10) PAF to introduce KORAL, a transportable system with jamming and deception capabilities that can paralyze hostile radar
11) Introduce submarine launched babar cruise missile.
Excellent recomendation !!!
Can you pls post the amount of Money required to get all those.
