PAF more vulnerable than ever: Ex IAF officer

[Maarkhoor]

Aieee, bus kar, yaar, yeh purani ghaseeti peeti jhootein kitna bar galat batana hai.

Till today after extensive investigation, I have not found a single source for Muchu Chaudhuri having said this, and as for this unfortunate, I gave you the whole sad story myself in Harbaksh Singh's words. None of all that takes away from the initial aggression by Pakistan, so what does this prove?

My point is still valid.

Khasiyani billi khamba noochay.....

 

[Joe Shearer]

Khasiyani billi khamba noochay.....

ووہی یکھ جیپ کتنے بار دیکھوگے جناب

 

[Maarkhoor]

ووہی یکھ جیپ کتنے بار دیکھوگے جناب

Jab Jab zoorat padey ghi sahib
Ironically I sat on this jeep many times

 

[wulff]

PAF is only vulnerable because it has not built up an effective SAM network. And this vulnerability has only crept in and reached such threatening levels because there was and is a certain level of pig-headedness in the top levels of the air force. They have spent funds on absolutely the worst possible procurements (F-16s, Spada, HQ-16A/B). But that is a topic for another day.

Tell the writer that the PAF's worst times have actually passed. While it remains frighteningly vulnerable in the air today, the situation will change in the next decade. No matter what the IAF acquires now, the gap between it and the PAF will shrink. Pakistan's greatest vulnerability: the ability of Indian 4.5th gen aircraft to make quick strikes will vanish the moment Turkey's Indigenous SAM programs mature and China's next generation SAMs are made available to Pakistan. Standoff weapons will not be as big a problem anymore with the availability of Chinese/Turkish CIWS systems. Now there is still one factor that can continue to work in favor of the the IAF: that is the pig-headedness referred to above which continues to exist.

Funny thing is, of the two airforces, it may be the PAF that ends up fielding the more advanced aircraft in the coming decade. And we may have the Rafale to thank for that.

 

[Windjammer]

As far as IAF is concerned, PAF was never vulnerable and is now in a much stronger position than it was in say 2008.

2008 air alert
After the 2008 Mumbai attacks, Pakistan Air Force was put on high alert. It deployed to all its wartime locations and started combat air patrols. The speed and intensity of the deployment and PAF's readiness took the Indian Army High Command by surprise and later reports suggest was the main factor in the Indian decision of not going for cross border raids inside Pakistan.[43][44] PAF was issued a Standing Order to launch an immediate counter-attack in case of an air attack from India, after a call from the Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee to the Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari (the call later turned out to be a hoax).

 

[Mav3rick]

On the contrary, its ignorant to ignore one part (A2G Ops-coordination with PA and SF, which PAF didnt have exp in mountains before) while blatantly mentioning the other part (A2A).

I called the post ignorant because there is no point even considering bombing runs when IAF will gain Air Superiority within a matter of hours or days.

Out of 270 how many war ready ? 46% and what about China did they left whole Chinese border unchecked?

Can we take that chance? That 46% are not available? Or that Some will be placed on the Chinese Border?

 

[python-000]

point is why Pakistan not inducting new fighter jets rather then licking JF-17s & why PAF dont like duel engines fighters...

 

[Hellfire]

Air Force enthusiasts, generally of the western bloc, have been arguing this through the Cold War; in a generic way, air power was touted by Giulio Douhet and Billy Mitchell, and what was essential and relevant was blown out of proportion by the bomber mafia in the RAF, by the dive-bombing enthusiasts in the Luftwaffe and the lunatics in the USAAF, and later, the USAF.

Reality is far more nuanced, as every generation has found out, the hard way.

Weighing in to what you said here (part of selectively posting).

1. 2008 - My 'connect' with air force that you are aware of, was placed on a short notice to be the first wave of An-32s to go for bombing run. The 'air force' strike was planned with our transports doing a bombing run. Not even fighters were considered, a raid planned to blatantly & willfully violate the Pakistani airspace and that too with aircrafts that one would be considered a fool for replacing Mig-27s or Jaguars with!! One can always throw a bravado of 'come on if you have guts' etc etc, and I can always say that perhaps IAF was being too cocky!

2. Dec 2016 Interesting to note range of missiles is being quoted, that too at the maximum firing envelope. I would really love to see how that actually pans out, with the surveillance and stand off capability of IAF today covering both the Eastern and Western borders of Pakistan, I am actually quite intrigued how that shall happen. We did the dry run in 2016, I wonder how many on other side are willing to talk about the 'painting' of their assets along the Western Airspace of their nation, at will.

All the more interesting to note is the 'China' card. History has shown us exactly what reliance is to be placed on that. History has also shown us that India always has it's ducks lined well before any action is initiated.

surprised to see you post here

 

[Trango Towers]

point is why Pakistan not inducting new fighter jets rather then licking JF-17s & why PAF dont like duel engines fighters...

Oh dear ....

 

[Mav3rick]

The MKIs have their own disadvantages, at any given time all 270 shall not be available but after the few steps taken by India to improve their availability it shall be max up 60-70% at most, meanwhile India can't afford to place all assets against Pakistan. On other hand if we go for A2A assets PAF though lacks in numbers yet have quality assets to counter IAF unlike past. PAF has also stocked/improved the availability of necessary spares for F16s. The MLU F16 if not superior still have a fare chance in any A2A combat against our adversary so far. Pak BVR and WVR missiles are quite capable, meanwhile by 2021 we shall get capable HOBS WVRs and may be long range BVRs like PL-15. Meanwhile for penetration missions/ to counter Rafael we may get interim solution in shape of J10C in near future. IAF may face irreparable loss in case of A2A engagements. Pakistan may be lacking in SAMs as in the field our AD units mostly have short range SAMs only, and limited Medium range SAMs have been mostly deployed to defend sensitive installations.For few big cities we should at least install low to medium range SAMs layers with capable Radars to counter immediate threats.

Vulnerabilities shall always be there for a smaller country, question is how it responds the emerging threats.

Let's assume IAF deployes 60% of her assets against PAF TODAY. That means 160+ MKI's against 70 odd F-16's and 100 od JF-17's. F-16's are a superb platform but we neither have reliable spares supply for them nor any upgrades for MLU'd older F-16's. When we speak about JF-17's, they are our pride but untested in air-to-air combat environment against top of the line Air Force Assets such as MKIs. Even the upgraded Bisons would give us a tough time. And we are not even considering Indian SAM assets and AEW&CS assets because in my opinion the theater of aerial combat would entirely be in our airspace.

Our SAM assets are next to useless against IAF Fighters. And all this is because someone made an extremely bad call in 2005 to go for additional F-16's instead of some other French asset etc. We chose to be bitten by the same unreliable partner and this time it was despite being well informed.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Jab Jab zoorat padey ghi sahib
Ironically I sat on this jeep many times

I hope and pray that it is not infected.

Weighing in to what you said here (part of selectively posting).

1. 2008 - My 'connect' with air force that you are aware of, was placed on a short notice to be the first wave of An-32s to go for bombing run. The 'air force' strike was planned with our transports doing a bombing run. Not even fighters were considered, a raid planned to blatantly & willfully violate the Pakistani airspace and that too with aircrafts that one would be considered a fool for replacing Mig-27s or Jaguars with!! One can always throw a bravado of 'come on if you have guts' etc etc, and I can always say that perhaps IAF was being too cocky!

2. Dec 2016 Interesting to note range of missiles is being quoted, that too at the maximum firing envelope. I would really love to see how that actually pans out, with the surveillance and stand off capability of IAF today covering both the Eastern and Western borders of Pakistan, I am actually quite intrigued how that shall happen. We did the dry run in 2016, I wonder how many on other side are willing to talk about the 'painting' of their assets along the Western Airspace of their nation, at will.

All the more interesting to note is the 'China' card. History has shown us exactly what reliance is to be placed on that. History has also shown us that India always has it's ducks lined well before any action is initiated.

surprised to see you post here

Delightful post.

Incidentally, I was essentially interested in matters military on this forum. All the rest is nothing but window-dressing.

 

[Bossman]

Indian are bipolar, they have these extreme mood swings from considering Pakistan an existentialist threat to India to being a failed state on the verge of collapse. They need to make up their minds.

 

[Basel]

A damn' good point!




Aieee, bus kar, yaar, yeh purani ghaseeti peeti jhootein kitna bar galat batana hai.

Till today after extensive investigation, I have not found a single source for Muchu Chaudhuri having said this, and as for this unfortunate, I gave you the whole sad story myself in Harbaksh Singh's words. None of all that takes away from the initial aggression by Pakistan, so what does this prove?

My point is still valid.



Jeete raho, bachche log.





I would dearly love to see PN ground units in action. Will they dismount their ships' guns and bring them along? The RN did that on occasion.

Why you think PAF have big presence in China, 2 squadron of J-10s are supposed to be those birds in China.

 

[Nilgiri]

ووہی یکھ جیپ کتنے بار دیکھوگے جناب

You know urdu script joe? Dayum....

 

[ziaulislam]

what's new IAF outnumbers PAF 1:3(380 4th gen fighters vs 185 4the gen fighters) while IAF lacks is enough pilots (half the ratio as compared to Pakistan) to effectively mobilized all fighters at an optimum sortie rate..pakistan has twice number lf AWACs and support aircarfts with decent SAM systems

In my opion situation today is better than 1990s

In airdefence PAF is well equipped where it lacks is deep strike aircrafts ...s400 is going to make it more difficult ..

Once rafale and LCA and the precieved additional fighter comes the gap might increase

PAF is only vulnerable because it has not built up an effective SAM network. And this vulnerability has only crept in and reached such threatening levels because there was and is a certain level of pig-headedness in the top levels of the air force. They have spent funds on absolutely the worst possible procurements (F-16s, Spada, HQ-16A/B). But that is a topic for another day.

Tell the writer that the PAF's worst times have actually passed. While it remains frighteningly vulnerable in the air today, the situation will change in the next decade. No matter what the IAF acquires now, the gap between it and the PAF will shrink. Pakistan's greatest vulnerability: the ability of Indian 4.5th gen aircraft to make quick strikes will vanish the moment Turkey's Indigenous SAM programs mature and China's next generation SAMs are made available to Pakistan. Standoff weapons will not be as big a problem anymore with the availability of Chinese/Turkish CIWS systems. Now there is still one factor that can continue to work in favor of the the IAF: that is the pig-headedness referred to above which continues to exist.

Funny thing is, of the two airforces, it may be the PAF that ends up fielding the more advanced aircraft in the coming decade. And we may have the Rafale to thank for that.

The deabte of SAM vs fighters is long one..ultimately most people prefer fighters for their flexibility if you have to choose between two ..Pakistan needs a long range SAM..hq16 range of 40? 80? Km is also concerning ..if its 40 whats the point of getting it