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PAF more vulnerable than ever: Ex IAF officer

Naa I cant say I/share your enthusiasm for Rafi. I somehow never liked his voice. But give me Talat or Mukesh or the amazing/Kishore any day. Hemant and CH Atma are timelessly beautiful. Lata and Shamshad are amazing as well. I enjoy Noor Jehan but the oldies only not necessarily the new ones. If you have access to Youtube listen to "jab tere shehr say guzarta hun". The current voice in my ear says "Balma bara Nadaan" which is very close to the political tirade on both sides for quite some time. I rest my case. Or listen to imtiaz Ali Riaz ali singing "Bahon main chale aao" in front of Lata.
Enjoy.
A

Let me follow your plan and see how things turn out. Shamshad has been one of my favourites - what an underrated singer! - as for the others, Kishore makes me uncomfortable as a pure singer - he's too athletic! - but when acting, and dancing out his numbers, I like him a lot. '5 Rupaiya 12 Anna' being a classic, but perhaps Madhubala's presence had something to do with it.

There are so many cognoscenti telling me to 'get real' and listen to Talat and Mukesh that I can't stand up against this popular pressure. I need to widen my list, it seems. So be it; there could be worse defeats than giving in to the opinions of the informed.
 
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I am afraid I may differ on some points from u as in the past Rafael was not so much potent as it is now, meanwhile F16 was at that time was considered the one of the modern jets, the JF17s existing blocks have been fielded agaisnt the most modern versions of flankers and results shall be helpful to improve next block. If we consider SAMs alone they are useless anywhere as in Syria we have seen the capable Russian SAMs got pitted against Western/Israeli Jets many times. But if applied as part of effective AD consisting of layers of different SAMs along with Jets may prove to be effective enough. Considering short distance between India/Pak if we deploy even our medium range SAMs in numbers may prove to be effective enough to counter intruders. However I am of view that our AD units should be armed with at least Medium and short range SAMs deployed near to border areas as old Manpads/Guns may not be effective against even new Attack helicopters being acquired by India.

The spares necessary to keep F16s have been stock piled by PAF after Kargil encounter and may remain operational for longer periods in case of any conflict just like India is also importing/stockpiling spares of MKI from Russia.

I cannot comment much on the past of Rafael, however won't you agree that mirages were just as capable as F-16's and so a testament to the expertise of the French in producing world class Fighters? With attachment to the French, we could not only have been able to get more Fighters but also would have been able to acquire critical hi-tech avionics and armaments for JF-17's etc.

While I agree that JF-17 would only get better and better and that we will acquire further experience and expertise by pitting Thunders against SU-30's, Rafael's, Typhoon's and perhaps even JSF of friendly countries in the coming years, but what if war breaks out today???

You are giving way too much importance to SAM systems, remember how effective jamming was in Russo-Georgian war? Indian has got way more advanced Jamming assets in her Phalcon AEWACS's etc.

In a war, a real war, no much how much you have in stock, it will run out very very quickly and then you will be without spares whereas IAF will either be producing a lot of her own spares or will still be able to get spares.

Nevertheless, we are where we are and the only thing we can do is to look forward. In this regard, I am of the opinion that PAF skip the 5th Gen entirely, or largely, and start looking to 6th Gen which in my opinion is autonomous fighting machines. Smaller, faster, quicker, artificially intelligent, smart and with next gen weapons. For air-superiority, we must work on autonomous, artificially intelligent systems which are solar powered, able to loiter and perform CAP missions autonomously for days to weeks without the need to land and with next gen directed energy weapons for air-to-air missions. And any country which can establish Air Dominance over her foe, can beat back any enemy.
 
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Very unlikely that Pakistan is going to do that. We are not going to play a cat and mouse game with India on this front. Pakistan has limited resources and shouldn't get embroiled in such a foolish endeavour.

Besides, India only has enemies in the region. Pakistan is their least concern. It is costing India an arm and a leg to procure weapons from all over the world. They will continue to amass weapons because they feel insecure. India will be spending more and more GDP on the aqcuisition of weapons.

PAF needs a healthy air force that can primarily fulfil a defensive role. However, Pakistan needs a smaller batch of offensive naval fighters due to CPEC and they need to be top-notch quality. Other than that, PAF will continue the path it is on. JF-17 block 3 is going to be the main workhorse. It is also a given that newer blocks of JF-17 will be inducted in the future which should further enhance its capabilities. A 5th gen aircraft will also be included to the fleet in the coming years. Along with F-16 this looks like a very potent air force for Pakistan.

Pakistan also has other deterrents in its arsenal that shall fulfil the offensive role. Our scientists are continuously developing mechanisms and vehicles to aid such weaponry. Our offensive capabilities consist of whole array of weapons. A country like Pakistan with limited resources needs to be innovative and we are doing one heck of a job in deterring the enemies.
To some extent you are right because after all we are a nuclear power and india cannot risk it,s existence by following it,s cold start doctrine.The complete invasion of pakistan and defeat in a war is impossible.
 
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I cannot comment much on the past of Rafael, however won't you agree that mirages were just as capable as F-16's and so a testament to the expertise of the French in producing world class Fighters? With attachment to the French, we could not only have been able to get more Fighters but also would have been able to acquire critical hi-tech avionics and armaments for JF-17's etc.

While I agree that JF-17 would only get better and better and that we will acquire further experience and expertise by pitting Thunders against SU-30's, Rafael's, Typhoon's and perhaps even JSF of friendly countries in the coming years, but what if war breaks out today???

You are giving way too much importance to SAM systems, remember how effective jamming was in Russo-Georgian war? Indian has got way more advanced Jamming assets in her Phalcon AEWACS's etc.

In a war, a real war, no much how much you have in stock, it will run out very very quickly and then you will be without spares whereas IAF will either be producing a lot of her own spares or will still be able to get spares.

Nevertheless, we are where we are and the only thing we can do is to look forward. In this regard, I am of the opinion that PAF skip the 5th Gen entirely, or largely, and start looking to 6th Gen which in my opinion is autonomous fighting machines. Smaller, faster, quicker, artificially intelligent, smart and with next gen weapons. For air-superiority, we must work on autonomous, artificially intelligent systems which are solar powered, able to loiter and perform CAP missions autonomously for days to weeks without the need to land and with next gen directed energy weapons for air-to-air missions. And any country which can establish Air Dominance over her foe, can beat back any enemy.

I shall end the discussion with some clarifications, the SAMS have their importance in Pak scenario as Pak is a smaller country with not much strategic depth, further we are cash strapped and even after projects like CPEC and revival of overall economy cannot compete with India one on one basis. We have to be innovative as well as to adopt effective but economical means. Even if we are able to raise large number of fighter squadrons they shall be prone to IAF/Missile attacks due less strategic depth. The solution is to increase ground based SAMs numbers, but at same time they should be more capable. Layer based SAM defence for few big cities like Islamabad, Karachi and even Gawader is a must containing different types of SAMs from short, medium to long range with capable anti stealth sensors/radars. On other side I have understood from what you are saying is that Pak should deploy armed UAVs which are stealthy ones. Meanwhile direct energy weapons may take longer period to be introduced. In the end one should as good steps taken in case of PN in same way some effective positive steps in near future may be expected in case of PAF.
 
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It is tempting to respond, acknowledging the insights, but probably inadvisable. Your last sentence did come as a surprise, however.

@Vibrio @jbgt90



Look at it this way. Unless the service chiefs keep up the pressure, their budgets will be downgraded. As it is, these are constantly unfriendly scrutiny by the babus. So the existential threats business. On the other hand, except for fanboys, I don't think anybody thinks Pakistan to be a failed stage on the verge of collapse; khaki chaddis were anyway not intelligent about anything.
Basically, every other misreading of terrain or navigational oversight by the new IAF or PAF trainee(or otherwise) was initially sending jets into the air.

While that knee jerk issue was resolved fairly early, the danger of misinterpretation of intentions has increased by both sides being able to see this much.
 
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It is tempting to respond, acknowledging the insights, but probably inadvisable. Your last sentence did come as a surprise, however.

@Vibrio @jbgt90


I think none of us needs to say anything further. My post earlier, was, retrospectively, poorly thought through.

@Oscar Specifically for An-32. I agree, may sound fanciful. I did admit, I can always say IAF was being too cocky. But constraints and the platform, preclude either a discussion or an elaboration, anytime over the next few years.
 
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Let's be devil's advocate , it is fact Pakistan need 5th gen strike fighter . JF17 and F16 is only frame. Pakistan need something to match SU30 and Rafale ......
 
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WHEN will you tell us in public about your family of 'connects' and your own very particular connect (separate from your own role)?

Never, perhaps. And you know the reasons (most of them). It is always best to fade away into nothing. Hellfire is just the beginning of fading away :)


It's irritating to see the faux-expertise on display by total outsiders. At this moment, only @jbgt90 is ahead of you as far as insights into the military are concerned; not surprising, since his batch-mates are just on the brink of flag rank.

He will always be ahead of me. Perhaps a couple more. I will always remain constrained and circumspect.

Total denial. One of them, an ex-fauji, talked about their kicking our backsides. I don't react to faujis; they are entitled to their brags, however irritating they can be (tell me, why do the fly-boys on both sides talk the loudest, and why does the 'silent service' live up almost strenuously to their nick-names?).

What is it that is oft said? Paraphrasing:

"when the victory was won, the cavalry boasted of its charge, the artillery - the size of its balls, while the infantry stood silent - with the victory at it's feet"?

I just can not recall the exact thing at this time of the night!

Another made our flesh creep with hints about hidden assets hidden away beyond detection; he was referring to the possibility of additional JF17s parked in 'higher-than-mountain, deeper-than-ocean land'. He comes to mind because of your own sly hint above.

Yes, I saw that. The said claimant took umbrage to my posting on 1971 war the other day. I am sure he has served his country well. I am just a defence ex-enthusiast!

The China card has turned out to be a dummy so often that it's painful to see the childlike faith in their support that is still on display. But nothing as gullible as a cynic out of his depth. A Kannada-speaking ethnic Chinese friend of mine once remarked that the Chinese have organic razors on their gluteus maximi; no deshi can ride them to a finish. Watching this particular relationship makes me feel sad.

China has a market. Both military and civil. I always admire a consistent quality of China - their approach to treaties. Specific to time and place, subject to renegotiations always.

Sometimes it seems as if the dubbing of a certain language group as brave idiots holds true on both sides of the international border.

Like I often say:

I never speak about a topic in which I have either not been trained/professionally been involved with or worked at/been formally educated at/have experience of! (Provided I can speak of it in the first place)

:)
 
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I think none of us needs to say anything further. My post earlier, was, retrospectively, poorly thought through.

@Oscar Specifically for An-32. I agree, may sound fanciful. I did admit, I can always say IAF was being too cocky. But constraints and the platform, preclude either a discussion or an elaboration, anytime over the next few years.

It was risky, for you personally as well; you know what I mean.

Have you noticed Oscar's uncanny prescience? Once again? Rest on mail.
 
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It was risky, for you personally as well; you know what I mean.

Have you noticed Oscar's uncanny prescience? Once again? Rest on mail.

He understands what is not said and communicates likewise, takes a depth to understand what is not said.

Only a fool will try to read bravado where there is none to be had.

All correspondence on mail henceforth, sir.

***Final Out***

@Oscar Thanks for hosting and engaging. I shall hope to interact someday in more conducive and welcoming environs than what persists here, to learn from you among many other outstanding members.

Warm regards.
 
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I would dearly love to see PN ground units in action. Will they dismount their ships' guns and bring them along? The RN did that on occasion.

He was talking about the PN Marines, but you probably just wanted to make a joke of it as usual.
 
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Very unlikely that Pakistan is going to do that. We are not going to play a cat and mouse game with India on this front. Pakistan has limited resources and shouldn't get embroiled in such a foolish endeavour.

Besides, India only has enemies in the region. Pakistan is their least concern. It is costing India an arm and a leg to procure weapons from all over the world. They will continue to amass weapons because they feel insecure. India will be spending more and more GDP on the aqcuisition of weapons.

PAF needs a healthy air force that can primarily fulfil a defensive role. However, Pakistan needs a smaller batch of offensive naval fighters due to CPEC and they need to be top-notch quality. Other than that, PAF will continue the path it is on. JF-17 block 3 is going to be the main workhorse. It is also a given that newer blocks of JF-17 will be inducted in the future which should further enhance its capabilities. A 5th gen aircraft will also be included to the fleet in the coming years. Along with F-16 this looks like a very potent air force for Pakistan.

Pakistan also has other deterrents in its arsenal that shall fulfil the offensive role. Our scientists are continuously developing mechanisms and vehicles to aid such weaponry. Our offensive capabilities consist of whole array of weapons. A country like Pakistan with limited resources needs to be innovative and we are doing one heck of a job in deterring the enemies.
Amin..
 
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Agreed and at IAF mercy lets be reality speaks we lack quality quantity

Atlest block 70 f 16 needed to match india
 
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Never found out why IAF takes PLAAF so lightly ...
I mean PLAAF outnumbers IAF in very astonishing way..just the j10s are more in number than the whole IAF۔۔forget about the flankers and bombers ..
There is no comparison ..PLAAF outnumbers n IAF 4:1 in numbers ..much much more than what IAF does with PAF
 
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