PAF more vulnerable than ever: Ex IAF officer

[Joe Shearer]

You know urdu script joe? Dayum....

Just started learning. My teacher looks suicidal; my letters are vomit-inducing according to him.

Weighing in to what you said here (part of selectively posting).

1. 2008 - My 'connect' with air force that you are aware of, was placed on a short notice to be the first wave of An-32s to go for bombing run. The 'air force' strike was planned with our transports doing a bombing run. Not even fighters were considered, a raid planned to blatantly & willfully violate the Pakistani airspace and that too with aircrafts that one would be considered a fool for replacing Mig-27s or Jaguars with!! One can always throw a bravado of 'come on if you have guts' etc etc, and I can always say that perhaps IAF was being too cocky!

WHEN will you tell us in public about your family of 'connects' and your own very particular connect (separate from your own role)? It's irritating to see the faux-expertise on display by total outsiders. At this moment, only @jbgt90 is ahead of you as far as insights into the military are concerned; not surprising, since his batch-mates are just on the brink of flag rank.

2. Dec 2016 Interesting to note range of missiles is being quoted, that too at the maximum firing envelope. I would really love to see how that actually pans out, with the surveillance and stand off capability of IAF today covering both the Eastern and Western borders of Pakistan, I am actually quite intrigued how that shall happen. We did the dry run in 2016, I wonder how many on other side are willing to talk about the 'painting' of their assets along the Western Airspace of their nation, at will.

Total denial. One of them, an ex-fauji, talked about their kicking our backsides. I don't react to faujis; they are entitled to their brags, however irritating they can be (tell me, why do the fly-boys on both sides talk the loudest, and why does the 'silent service' live up almost strenuously to their nick-names?). Another made our flesh creep with hints about hidden assets hidden away beyond detection; he was referring to the possibility of additional JF17s parked in 'higher-than-mountain, deeper-than-ocean land'. He comes to mind because of your own sly hint above.

All the more interesting to note is the 'China' card. History has shown us exactly what reliance is to be placed on that. History has also shown us that India always has it's ducks lined well before any action is initiated.

surprised to see you post here

The China card has turned out to be a dummy so often that it's painful to see the childlike faith in their support that is still on display. But nothing as gullible as a cynic out of his depth. A Kannada-speaking ethnic Chinese friend of mine once remarked that the Chinese have organic razors on their gluteus maximi; no deshi can ride them to a finish. Watching this particular relationship makes me feel sad.

Sometimes it seems as if the dubbing of a certain language group as brave idiots holds true on both sides of the international border.

 

[CHI RULES]

what's new IAF outnumbers PAF 1:3(380 4th gen fighters vs 185 4the gen fighters) while IAF lacks is enough pilots (half the ratio as compared to Pakistan) to effectively mobilized all fighters at an optimum sortie rate..pakistan has twice number lf AWACs and support aircarfts with decent SAM systems

In my opion situation today is better than 1990s

In airdefence PAF is well equipped where it lacks is deep strike aircrafts ...s400 is going to make it more difficult ..

Once rafale and LCA and the precieved additional fighter comes the gap might increase


The deabte of SAM vs fighters is long one..ultimately most people prefer fighters for their flexibility if you have to choose between two ..Pakistan needs a long range SAM..hq16 range of 40? 80? Km is also concerning ..if its 40 whats the point of getting it

Even if HQ16 is able to counter Indian missiles at 30-40 KM should be effective enough to be deployed. As we have seen the poor/ineffective performance of Russian SAMs in Syria.

Let's assume IAF deployes 60% of her assets against PAF TODAY. That means 160+ MKI's against 70 odd F-16's and 100 od JF-17's. F-16's are a superb platform but we neither have reliable spares supply for them nor any upgrades for MLU'd older F-16's. When we speak about JF-17's, they are our pride but untested in air-to-air combat environment against top of the line Air Force Assets such as MKIs. Even the upgraded Bisons would give us a tough time. And we are not even considering Indian SAM assets and AEW&CS assets because in my opinion the theater of aerial combat would entirely be in our airspace.

Our SAM assets are next to useless against IAF Fighters. And all this is because someone made an extremely bad call in 2005 to go for additional F-16's instead of some other French asset etc. We chose to be bitten by the same unreliable partner and this time it was despite being well informed.

I am afraid I may differ on some points from u as in the past Rafael was not so much potent as it is now, meanwhile F16 was at that time was considered the one of the modern jets, the JF17s existing blocks have been fielded agaisnt the most modern versions of flankers and results shall be helpful to improve next block. If we consider SAMs alone they are useless anywhere as in Syria we have seen the capable Russian SAMs got pitted against Western/Israeli Jets many times. But if applied as part of effective AD consisting of layers of different SAMs along with Jets may prove to be effective enough. Considering short distance between India/Pak if we deploy even our medium range SAMs in numbers may prove to be effective enough to counter intruders. However I am of view that our AD units should be armed with at least Medium and short range SAMs deployed near to border areas as old Manpads/Guns may not be effective against even new Attack helicopters being acquired by India.

The spares necessary to keep F16s have been stock piled by PAF after Kargil encounter and may remain operational for longer periods in case of any conflict just like India is also importing/stockpiling spares of MKI from Russia.

 

[SQ8]

Just started learning. My teacher looks suicidal; my letters are vomit-inducing according to him.



WHEN will you tell us in public about your family of 'connects' and your own very particular connect (separate from your own role)? It's irritating to see the faux-expertise on display by total outsiders. At this moment, only @jbgt90 is ahead of you as far as insights into the military are concerned; not surprising, since his batch-mates are just on the brink of flag rank.

Total denial. One of them, an ex-fauji, talked about their kicking our backsides. I don't react to faujis; they are entitled to their brags, however irritating they can be (tell me, why do the fly-boys on both sides talk the loudest, and why does the 'silent service' live up almost strenuously to their nick-names?). Another made our flesh creep with hints about hidden assets hidden away beyond detection; he was referring to the possibility of additional JF17s parked in 'higher-than-mountain, deeper-than-ocean land'. He comes to mind because of your own sly hint above.



The China card has turned out to be a dummy so often that it's painful to see the childlike faith in their support that is still on display. But nothing as gullible as a cynic out of his depth. A Kannada-speaking ethnic Chinese friend of mine once remarked that the Chinese have organic razors on their gluteus maximi; no deshi can ride them to a finish. Watching this particular relationship makes me feel sad.

Sometimes it seems as if the dubbing of a certain language group as brave idiots holds true on both sides of the international border.

I find the idea of An-32s being used fanciful at best(although the potential for insanity in the fog of war is not to be discounted if one looks into certain decisions made in the WoT early stages on this side and they amount to treason, and make the charge of the light brigade look less of a tragedy.. but not for this thread for platform to discuss). 2008 was a case of air defence probing and the response on our end was found surprising, later “probes” made it more difficult as the claim of “painting” the westen border here(likely possible since the distance is not much to talk about) is balanced by our more numerous binoculars in the sky have picked up ultralights in areas where vadas are staple as it was important to ensure that the big long range jets could not fly the longer route to circle around..

There are still gaps due to terrain which will remain.
But the increased awareness has both advantages and drawbacks as well.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I find the idea of An-32s being used fanciful at best(although the potential for insanity in the fog of war is not to be discounted if one looks into certain decisions made in the WoT early stages on this side and they amount to treason, and make the charge of the light brigade look less of a tragedy.. but not for this thread for platform to discuss). 2008 was a case of air defence probing and the response on our end was found surprising, later “probes” made it more difficult as the claim of “painting” the westen border here(likely possible since the distance is not much to talk about) is balanced by our more numerous binoculars in the sky have picked up ultralights in areas where vadas are staple as it was important to ensure that the big long range jets could not fly the longer route to circle around.

There are still gaps due to terrain which will remain.
But the increased awareness has both advantages and drawbacks as well.

It is tempting to respond, acknowledging the insights, but probably inadvisable. Your last sentence did come as a surprise, however.

@Vibrio @jbgt90

Indian are bipolar, they have these extreme mood swings from considering Pakistan an existentialist threat to India to being a failed state on the verge of collapse. They need to make up their minds.

Look at it this way. Unless the service chiefs keep up the pressure, their budgets will be downgraded. As it is, these are constantly unfriendly scrutiny by the babus. So the existential threats business. On the other hand, except for fanboys, I don't think anybody thinks Pakistan to be a failed stage on the verge of collapse; khaki chaddis were anyway not intelligent about anything.

 

[SecularNationalist]

No clue how good or bad the Chinese planes are. But no country in its right mind should have them as their primary air weapons.

So according to your logic chinese airforce is not in it,s right mind ?
On topic: I do agree the IAF officer is right.We do need to spend a lof of money on latest jets plus we need to find an alternative for S400.

 

[maximuswarrior]

So according to your logic chinese airforce is not in it,s right mind ?
On topic: I do agree the IAF officer is right.We do need to spend a lof of money on latest jets plus we need to find an alternative for S400.

Very unlikely that Pakistan is going to do that. We are not going to play a cat and mouse game with India on this front. Pakistan has limited resources and shouldn't get embroiled in such a foolish endeavour.

Besides, India only has enemies in the region. Pakistan is their least concern. It is costing India an arm and a leg to procure weapons from all over the world. They will continue to amass weapons because they feel insecure. India will be spending more and more GDP on the aqcuisition of weapons.

PAF needs a healthy air force that can primarily fulfil a defensive role. However, Pakistan needs a smaller batch of offensive naval fighters due to CPEC and they need to be top-notch quality. Other than that, PAF will continue the path it is on. JF-17 block 3 is going to be the main workhorse. It is also a given that newer blocks of JF-17 will be inducted in the future which should further enhance its capabilities. A 5th gen aircraft will also be included to the fleet in the coming years. Along with F-16 this looks like a very potent air force for Pakistan.

Pakistan also has other deterrents in its arsenal that shall fulfil the offensive role. Our scientists are continuously developing mechanisms and vehicles to aid such weaponry. Our offensive capabilities consist of whole array of weapons. A country like Pakistan with limited resources needs to be innovative and we are doing one heck of a job in deterring the enemies.

 

[ziaulislam]

Just started learning. My teacher looks suicidal; my letters are vomit-inducing according to him.



WHEN will you tell us in public about your family of 'connects' and your own very particular connect (separate from your own role)? It's irritating to see the faux-expertise on display by total outsiders. At this moment, only @jbgt90 is ahead of you as far as insights into the military are concerned; not surprising, since his batch-mates are just on the brink of flag rank.

Total denial. One of them, an ex-fauji, talked about their kicking our backsides. I don't react to faujis; they are entitled to their brags, however irritating they can be (tell me, why do the fly-boys on both sides talk the loudest, and why does the 'silent service' live up almost strenuously to their nick-names?). Another made our flesh creep with hints about hidden assets hidden away beyond detection; he was referring to the possibility of additional JF17s parked in 'higher-than-mountain, deeper-than-ocean land'. He comes to mind because of your own sly hint above.



The China card has turned out to be a dummy so often that it's painful to see the childlike faith in their support that is still on display. But nothing as gullible as a cynic out of his depth. A Kannada-speaking ethnic Chinese friend of mine once remarked that the Chinese have organic razors on their gluteus maximi; no deshi can ride them to a finish. Watching this particular relationship makes me feel sad.

Sometimes it seems as if the dubbing of a certain language group as brave idiots holds true on both sides of the international border.

After 1971 Pakistan hasnt relied on china or USA ..no idea where an educated person like you is getting that idea

Otherwise nukes would never have been developed

 

[Joe Shearer]

After 1971 Pakistan hasnt relied on china or USA ..no idea where an educated person like you is getting that idea

Otherwise nukes would never have been developed

And here I was thinking that all sorts of technology was leaked into all sorts of places by all sorts of places. Including an indulgent CIA looking on while nuclear technology was copied photocopy by photocopy, while missile technology was imported nut by bolt by blade of grass, while China was the source of specially priced arms and ammunition for all three services - but that must have been my stupid education that totally confused me. I should have remembered that all these breakthroughs in technology had nothing to do with China or the USA and were indigenous developments building on the expertise already available in Darra Adam Khel.

Silly me.

No wonder people keep laughing at my ignorance.

Please try not to spread this around.

 

[araz]

I think PAF is not in a good position vis a vis its own projected capacity for 2018. Whether it is at its weakest is very debatable and at best ludicrous. What is concerning is the financial sitjation which is dire and unlikely to improve in the next 3-5 years. From this perspective the whole of Paklands is vulnerable. In an age of hybrid warfare this is where Paklands can be harmed irreversibly without even lifting the gun. We have seen glimpses of this in Baluchistan and NWFP and also in Karachi.
I think war in the Indo Pak Arena is unlikely unless mass madness prevails on either/both sides at least in the first part of the next decade. I think unless the water situation is resolved amicably and by putting lit boosters up the back sides of Paklands polity and beauocracy there is a situation where Pak Indo war scenarios might develop.
To all the jingoistic on both sides I assure you will be wetting your pants on a fairly regular basis if that happened. Wars have a momentum of their own and the consequent devastation will be massive. There is no winning the next war but there will be devastation galore. So not some thing go look forward to.
So in the light of above facts which are blatantly obvious to an old fool like me and therefore to most sane people, I am assuming another houri dominated and ganga fueled version from an-alternate parallel universe has not afflicted either side. Therefore this is fuelling of war mongering by the IAF to drum up some support for future purchases. This is a common tactic everywhere and surprisingly seen through and countered by the Orange man which points to the naivity of the whole tactic.
So what should happen if sanity were to prevail? People should eat less red chillies and more yogurt to calm their nerves in the first place. There is a desperate need for mass uplift and poverty alleviation and war is not the answer but a menas to diverting attention from the problems facing to joe public. Indoland is far ahead of us so we should start running rather than sauntering.
From an acquisition point of view Paklands is way ahead of Indolands. A successful Fighter plane, reasonable tank and some IFVs/guns on the line. A battle hardened force which has seen action on 2 fronts of a varying variety. So IAF/IA needs to build capacity. However Indian indegenous infrastructure has not performed as well and public-private partnership might produce better results. However unless we establish links again and start trading this is not going to happen for both countries . The rest is upto you all to carry on carrying on.
The deficiencies in military build up and infrastructure are present on both sides and a war would be devastating
A

And here I was thinking that all sorts of technology was leaked into all sorts of places by all sorts of places. Including an indulgent CIA looking on while nuclear technology was copied photocopy by photocopy, while missile technology was imported nut by bolt by blade of grass, while China was the source of specially priced arms and ammunition for all three services - but that must have been my stupid education that totally confused me. I should have remembered that all these breakthroughs in technology had nothing to do with China or the USA and were indigenous developments building on the expertise already available in Darra Adam Khel.

Silly me.

No wonder people keep laughing at my ignorance.

Please try not to spread this around.

Now now Sir. You are being a bit mischievous. I fully agree that there has been a lot of transfer of tech and hand holding to chivvy things along, but there has been a lot of indegenous effort to bring a lot of things to fruition. So where as a bit of largess can be taken I dont think local effort should be disregarded altogether.
A

 

[Joe Shearer]

I think PAF is not in a good position vis a vis its own projected capacity for 2018. Whether it is at its weakest is very debatable and at best ludicrous. What is concerning is the financial sitjation which is dire and unlikely to improve in the next 3-5 years. From this perspective the whole of Paklands is vulnerable. In an age of hybrid warfare this is where Paklands can be harmed irreversibly without even lifting the gun. We have seen glimpses of this in Baluchistan and NWFP and also in Karachi.
I think war in the Indo Pak Arena is unlikely unless mass madness prevails on either/both sides at least in the first part of the next decade. I think unless the water situation is resolved amicably and by putting lit boosters up the back sides of Paklands polity and beauocracy there is a situation where Pak Indo war scenarios might develop.
To all the jingoistic on both sides I assure you will be wetting your pants on a fairly regular basis if that happened. Wars have a momentum of their own and the consequent devastation will be massive. There is no winning the next war but there will be devastation galore. So not some thing go look forward to.
So in the light of above facts which are blatantly obvious to an old fool like me and therefore to most sane people, I am assuming another houri dominated and ganga fueled version from an-alternate parallel universe has not afflicted either side. Therefore this is fuelling of war mongering by the IAF to drum up some support for future purchases. This is a common tactic everywhere and surprisingly seen through and countered by the Orange man which points to the naivity of the whole tactic.
So what should happen if sanity were to prevail? People should eat less red chillies and more yogurt to calm their nerves in the first place. There is a desperate need for mass uplift and poverty alleviation and war is not the answer but a menas to diverting attention from the problems facing to joe public. Indoland is far ahead of us so we should start running rather than sauntering.
From an acquisition point of view Paklands is way ahead of Indolands. A successful Fighter plane, reasonable tank and some IFVs/guns on the line. A battle hardened force which has seen action on 2 fronts of a varying variety. So IAF/IA needs to build capacity. However Indian indegenous infrastructure has not performed as well and public-private partnership might produce better results. However unless we establish links again and start trading this is not going to happen for both countries . The rest is upto you all to carry on carrying on.
The deficiencies in military build up and infrastructure are present on both sides and a war would be devastating
A


Now now Sir. You are being a bit mischievous. I fully agree that there has been a lot of transfer of tech and hand holding to chivvy things along, but there has been a lot of indegenous effort to bring a lot of things to fruition. So where as a bit of largess can be taken I dont think local effort should be disregarded altogether.
A

Of course I am. Please tell me that you do recognise when I am bored and need entertainment. For every thoughtful post that I make, there are seven or eight of a thoroughly flippant nature. I could not resist the opportunity to alarm and even annoy a very serious person, making a very serious remark about a subject whose comic possibilities have never been milked to the full.

 

[araz]

what's new IAF outnumbers PAF 1:3(380 4th gen fighters vs 185 4the gen fighters) while IAF lacks is enough pilots (half the ratio as compared to Pakistan) to effectively mobilized all fighters at an optimum sortie rate..pakistan has twice number lf AWACs and support aircarfts with decent SAM systems

In my opion situation today is better than 1990s

In airdefence PAF is well equipped where it lacks is deep strike aircrafts ...s400 is going to make it more difficult ..

Once rafale and LCA and the precieved additional fighter comes the gap might increase


The deabte of SAM vs fighters is long one..ultimately most people prefer fighters for their flexibility if you have to choose between two ..Pakistan needs a long range SAM..hq16 range of 40? 80? Km is also concerning ..if its 40 whats the point of getting it

I am only rezponding to the last part of your post. There are reasons you need progressive build up of capacity. We have Manpads, SRSAMs, and now a build-up of medium range SAMs. The range of the HQ16s which you have commented on are as much needed as the longer range ones. Now the Chinese are in it to make money and often would say you need to buy X amount of this before the longer range varient can b3 sold. The other tactic is to hike up the price and link the price of one to a concession in the other. So there maybe many reasons for not getting the longer range ones just

Of course I am. Please tell me that you do recognise when I am bored and need entertainment. For every thoughtful post that I make, there are seven or eight of a thoroughly flippant nature. I could not resist the opportunity to alarm and even annoy a very serious person, making a very serious remark about a subject whose comic possibilities have never been milked to the full.

As I said Carry on carrying on. On a lighter mode I am/listening to Talat Mehmood, Shamshad, Hemant, CH Atma, and the oldies of Lata so my mood is rather elated. My wife detests my choice of Music so I have headphones on which is immeasurably rewarding because of its buffering effects.
Kind regards
A

 

[Darwin]

Of course I am. Please tell me that you do recognise when I am bored and need entertainment. For every thoughtful post that I make, there are seven or eight of a thoroughly flippant nature. I could not resist the opportunity to alarm and even annoy a very serious person, making a very serious remark about a subject whose comic possibilities have never been milked to the full.

You talk so much. Are you bengali ?

 

[araz]

You talk so much. Are you bengali ?

Naa he is from around Hyyderabad Deccan. He writes as he speaks. YAIK rahter than Aik.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am only rezponding to the last part of your post. There are reasons you need progressive build up of capacity. We have Manpads, SRSAMs, and now a build-up of medium range SAMs. The range of the HQ16s which you have commented on are as much needed as the longer range ones. Now the Chinese are in it to make money and often would say you need to buy X amount of this before the longer range varient can b3 sold. The other tactic is to hike up the price and link the price of one to a concession in the other. So there maybe many reasons for not getting the longer range ones just

As I said Carry on carrying on.
Kind regards
A

I am only rezponding to the last part of your post. There are reasons you need progressive build up of capacity. We have Manpads, SRSAMs, and now a build-up of medium range SAMs. The range of the HQ16s which you have commented on are as much needed as the longer range ones. Now the Chinese are in it to make money and often would say you need to buy X amount of this before the longer range varient can b3 sold. The other tactic is to hike up the price and link the price of one to a concession in the other. So there maybe many reasons for not getting the longer range ones just

As I said Carry on carrying on. On a lighter mode I am/listening to Talat Mehmood, Shamshad, Hemant, CH Atma, and the oldies of Lata so my mood is rather elated. My wife detests my choice of Music so I have headphones on which is immeasurably rewarding because of its buffering effects.
Kind regards
A

For me, Rafi Sahib is the one and only. That settles it, after cooking dinner, it shall be he, Geeta Dutt and O. P. Nayyar. Thanks for the push in the right direction.

 

[araz]

For me, Rafi Sahib is the one and only. That settles it, after cooking dinner, it shall be he, Geeta Dutt and O. P. Nayyar. Thanks for the push in the right direction.

Naa I cant say I/share your enthusiasm for Rafi. I somehow never liked his voice. But give me Talat or Mukesh or the amazing/Kishore any day. Hemant and CH Atma are timelessly beautiful. Lata and Shamshad are amazing as well. I enjoy Noor Jehan but the oldies only not necessarily the new ones. If you have access to Youtube listen to "jab tere shehr say guzarta hun". The current voice in my ear says "Balma bara Nadaan" which is very close to the political tirade on both sides for quite some time. I rest my case. Or listen to imtiaz Ali Riaz ali singing "Bahon main chale aao" in front of Lata.
Enjoy.
A