PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The Saudis and the Americans paid for the Pakistani F-16s. When Pakistan paid for then, PAF received soya beans instead.

Who's going to pay for J-10s?

Unseen elements....

 

[Zarvan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1478349496409022466

He is suggesting for Naval role. Until and Unless Russia has agreed to put AESA radar in SU 35 along with other features, not happening. Also our induction of twin seater jet for Navy would be purely based on whether Indian Navy chooses F-18 BLOCK III or not. If they do then either J-15 or SU-35 if Russia agrees to put AESA can't be ruled out.

 

[The Terminator]

That is worrying. Wondering how Pakistan has survived this long.

If it's okay for you to reveal, can I ask how does the military interact with the PDF staff to prevent certain information from being published here? Is it via ISPR making a request or someone with a direct hotline between the military and the forum admin(s)?

Lol I have seen Intel officers easily leaking confidential info to all their friends and family especially which aren't related to national security for obvious reasons.

But other than that they deal with a very sloppy unprofessional behaviour. They happily violate their oath and breach people's privacy to friends & family. But when they do try to leak info related to national security/anti state then they highly risk themselves of being caught and punished.

 

[Clutch]

Allegedly

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

He is suggesting for Naval role. Until and Unless Russia has agreed to put AESA radar in SU 35 along with other features, not happening. Also our induction of twin seater jet for Navy would be purely based on whether Indian Navy chooses F-18 BLOCK III or not. If they do then either J-15 or SU-35 if Russia agrees to put AESA can't be ruled out.

The idea that Russia could quietly sell those recently manufactured Su-35s to Pakistan and tell the US they're just PLAAF J-16s on exercise is, without doubt, the best theory that will never come true.

I'm just laying it out here for the YouTubers to eat up.

Come pidgies. Eat. And tell @Deino what you've heard.

@kursed @JamD @SQ8

 

[HAIDER]

dont even have to go that far.
china literally got the s400 years before india, and its a given that the PLA would have ran all kinds of tests/practice with it especially knowing that india is likely to get the same system.
if anyone other than the russians knows how to counter the s400, its going to be the chinese.

This is my assessment too ...Chinese already tested J10 against S400 ..... for India it's only a useful anti ballistic missile weapon..

 

[Zarvan]

The idea that Russia could quietly sell those recently manufactured Su-35s to Pakistan and tell the US they're just PLAAF J-16s on exercise is, without doubt, the best theory that will never come true.

I'm just laying it out here for the YouTubers to eat up.

Come pidgies. Eat. And tell @Deino what you've heard.

View attachment 805983


@kursed @JamD @SQ8

Dual Seater has only chance if India goes for F 18 BLOCK III. Then either J 16 or J 15 or SU 35 can come

 

[IceCold]

The Saudis and the Americans paid for the Pakistani F-16s. When Pakistan paid for them, PAF received soya beans instead.

Who's going to pay for J-10s?

Oh! How convenient that you remember soyabean but not the wheat which your beloved nawaz asked for instead of getting the F16s or the money back. Surprising fact was that Clinton had offered nawaz to either get F16s or the money back. He instead chose wheat.

 

[Longhorn]

Yes! You cannot say the JFT cockpit is cramped if sheiko can fit in. On a side note how the hell did he get in in the first place?

A

How did he get back out, is what I want to know.

 

[serenity]

Material science is a field that Chinese researchers are particularly famous of, far ahead of European peers, as per Thomson Reuters world's top 6 material scientists are all from China. However due to lack of R&D lab/fund in early years most Chinese material scientists either work in US universities or Japan institute (NIMS), in fact several of them are core researchers behind 5th gen single-crystal superalloy (used in blade for aero engine) TMS-162 as well as latest 6th gen TMS-238. In recent decade as China is beginning to provide first class R&D facilities & fund, more and more scientists return home and become the backbone of advanced materials industry.

Japan is first to 6th gen superalloys for turbine engines which is ahead of everyone but in every other engine field related to military turbofan, they are lagging but not by far. Japan's turbine technology leadership is in gas turbines instead for energy and even shipping.

China's I think was 4th generation equivalent is the best that is revealed to public but mostly actual use is still 2nd and 3rd gen material. USA and UK are at 5th generation of material. India at 1st generation which is actually pretty impressive.

It is said that 2nd and 3rd gen is actually advantageous and good enough, in fact equal to 4th and 5th gen in most aspects with the benefit of the newer ones being for certain manufacturing purposes. But the recent talks by some Chinese materials scientists claiming China's own development level is one to two generation lagging the best means there is a lot more work required just like with chips industry. China needs to get those experts back working for itself. Chinese experts make up about 20% of USA's AI industry and these are just Chinese born ones not even Chinese Americans. Trump's policies keeps pushing experts back and discouraging as many from leaving which is good.

In the past China loses 90 out of 100 talents, now it loses 10 out of 100 net with plenty choosing to return as conditions improve and conditions out there worsen especially with more unfriendliness.

 

[Goritoes]

The idea that Russia could quietly sell those recently manufactured Su-35s to Pakistan and tell the US they're just PLAAF J-16s on exercise is, without doubt, the best theory that will never come true.

I'm just laying it out here for the YouTubers to eat up.

Come pidgies. Eat. And tell @Deino what you've heard.

View attachment 805983


@kursed @JamD @SQ8

Just out of curiosity, does PN really need Twin engine flankers ?

 

[serenity]

Yes the massively upgraded C variant (with latest materials and on improved processes) can deliver 142kN as per Janes or 14.5~15.0 tons per Chinese sources, roughly equals to two M88 (which is the weakest of all medium-thrust as compared to RD93, WS-13E, F404/414 or EJ200)

M88 is an advanced engine compared to RD-33 or 93 and WS-13 but it offers much less power. However it is also smaller and lighter and maybe more thermal efficient I recall. Basically M88 may be weaker but it's still more advanced. It is WS-19 that is aimed to meet or exceed EJ200 and F414 power output and technology levels. M88 is not impressive but also not unimpressive. For Rafale it is the right engine I guess. RD-93 and WS-13 are just more powerful but two M88 is much more expensive as well so truly if one can choose a single F110 or WS-10B instead of two M88, it is much better. The first option is actually lighter and much less complex with about half the parts to maintain and replace. Single engine however requires extremely high reliability.

So far only F4xx on Gripen and Tejas, F100 and F110 on F-16, WS-10B on J-10C, and F135 on F-35 have been good enough for single engine fighter.

Russia refuses single engine based on past doctrine reflecting the range of fights and size of country but also because their engine reliability of that era was nowhere near American ones. WS-10A started matching and beating AL-31 series only after years of refining and improving and 10 years proof of record flying on J-11B before CAC and PLAAF was happy enough to replace AL-31 with WS-10B for J-10C. The only non-American engine on Earth that is on a single engine fighter.

This is my assessment too ...Chinese already tested J10 against S400 ..... for India it's only a useful anti ballistic missile weapon..

I don't think defeating S400's 40N6 is that easy even the 200km ranged missiles offer pretty good counter to SOWs if supported by medium and short range air defences that are integrated. While India does not have integrated AD they still have S400s which can keep non stealth fighters at around 200km away with high probability to kill. S400's advertized range of 400km is bullshit perfect world ideal conditions nonsense. 40N6 may fly to 400km but can barely take out a helicopter at that range. However it is still the longest range SAM that can be used against fighters and that means the most energy to defeat any fighter on earth. No other SAM system currently can even get close to that energy.

If PLAAF tried ways to find a perfect solution to defeat SAM like S400 since we had so many years to do this, it would be through some targeted electronic attack method that exploit weakness of some process chain in S400 units.

I think this is not for J-10 but something for Y series EW aircraft and something like J-16D or special purpose EW attack drones. To be honest, the easiest most effective and cheapest way is stealth drones that are fast too like GJ-11. These will be able to destroy SAMs like they are nothing but operator would need high sorties and lots of drones and missiles to do the job since you need to exhaust their medium and short range SAMs if they become integrated with long range search radars and then fire control radars.

 

[Deino]

View attachment 805979

Oh no ... do you guys ever read a thread and what was written so often before or do your homework?

These images are from April last year and show PLAAF J-10C, that were delivered thru 2021 to the 25th and maybe 16th Air Brigades but surely not PAF birds still waiting.

 

[abdulbarijan]

You didn't get what I wrote. Comment was in reference to the airframe design + the engine its paired with. As I said, JF needs a strong engine with this design to have good turn rate and nose pointing authority. It can not pull 9G like others can. Anyways, you can believe in whatever you like.

There is a reason why I asked you to kindly consult the information thread. After spending around 10+ years on the forum, I will tell you this, I do not possess the technical knowledge to comment on airframe design. I can however comment with confidence, only on the management of the program, marketing ( as I do possess knowledge as far as these fields are concerned) and maybe a bit of surface level analysis having spend a lot of time on this forum back in the day where serious discussions was a thing ..

I fail to understand how people who are new here and do not really possess the technical know how (newsflash: it is quite obvious) comment with such sweeping statements such as the jet is under powered or it doesn't belong in the 4th generation.

So again, I refer you to some examples,
1.the Mirage 2000 with its snechma M53-P2 can produce around 95 KN of thrust (21,400 pounds of thrust) with a loaded weight of around 30,000 pounds, has a Thrust to weight ratio of 0.71. The earlier model of the Mirage 2000 had the M-53-5 which produced even less at around 19,400 pounds of thrust.

2.Take the Gripen with the earlier models being powered by Volvo RM-12 producing 18,100 pounds of thrust. Compare that with the RD-93's 19000 pounds of thrust, along with the loaded weight of jf-17 at 20000 pounds i.e. a T/w of 0.95.

3. As far as G limits go, some models of the F/A-18A/c could pull less than the JF-17 i.e. around +7.5/-3 when they were introduced.

Question: Are you comfortable saying that the Gripen, Mirage 2000 and the F/A-18 do not belong in the 4th generation?

It is quite well documented that PAF was quite strict when it came to the performance parameters of the aircraft, just look at the difference between the first prototypes and the PT-04. Or one could simply listen to AVM (retd.) Shahid Latif regarding the program. The answer to most queries is the block building approach. What remains to be seen is how the rest of the JF-17 fleet will be upgraded once the deliveries of the block-III is complete.

 

[serenity]

Photos time of J-10C.

If they put the WS-10 TVC version on eventually, it would be an even better dogfighter.

At least it is lighter without TVC.