PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[TheSolution]

Dead in the water(other than people showing up for chai samosas) as far as the dots connect from all channels.

Is the TFX with WS-10/15 engines a viable option?

Although I think in the end we'll be going for a variant of the J-35

 

[Abid123]

no. please don't

Why not? So you would rather park a 50 million USD fighter out in the open where a swarm of cheap suicide drones could take it out?

Taiwan has one of the biggest underground airbases in the world. North Korea and China also have underground/mountain airbases. It’s a valid tactic against a superior opponent.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Each platform was brought in for a particular use case and the one for the JF-17 has been fulfilled. The J-10CE is in a way the PAF’s initial vision of what it thought the J-10 could have when it first looked at it back in 2001-2.
Some of the leeway with the JF-17 is being experienced on the J-10C as well including being able to add in house weapons. Might even see it end up with a rebuild factory at Kamra.

Part of the switch might even be the access to the powerplant similar to the access with RD-93.

my post was in response to the suggestion that J-10 replaces the role of JF1-7. in my view they are of two different categories.
that said if the knowledge gained from JF-17 evolution can be applied to Pakistani J-10 version then that's great.

have you seen mixed reality setups related to flight simulations? they are an interesting concept great for both commercial and military training.

this one is commercial and very impressive

this is military grade and based on F-16s

this one is a private setup but great work by that enthusiast

if the first two can be combined then they can serve as great training and entertainment platform (for high end rich boys) . only thing missing is the G force sensation and sudden tilts might produce limited 1 or 2 Gs .

wondering if PAF has similar setup

now think of combining the first two setups with this one. centrifugal spinning capsule with a 360 gyro mixed with a VR setup where human hand interaction with physical controls like stick and buttons.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Is the TFX with WS-10/15 engines a viable option?

Although I think in the end we'll be going for a variant of the J-35

If the PAF wants MMU/TFX, it'd wait for the TR Motor engines. In the mean time, it can build out the J-10CE fleet.

 

[Abramar]

Better strategy will be to replace all JF-17 block 1 with Block 3. As well as add further 50+ block 3. This way we get 65+- Block 2 and 100 block 3s added with 100 J-10C. Parity is not always achievable strategy though sought after. Many factors included.

It has to be seen if this is the most cost effective strategy, with how long the Block 3 is taking, it might be a possibility that the PAF has put a higher priority on J-10 acquisition, this is not to say that the Block 3 is not going to happen, but I am starting to have doubts whether PAF will go through the cost of modernizing the older blocks. They may not be cutting edge, but we already know they are more than capable.

 

[SQ8]

Is the TFX with WS-10/15 engines a viable option?

Although I think in the end we'll be going for a variant of the J-35

No - TFX is likely going to be either Eurojet or F-100 with a rare possibility of something from Motor-Sich later.

There may be elements of TFX Pakistan might take into a FC-31P

my post was in response to the suggestion that J-10 replaces the role of JF1-7. in my view they are of two different categories.
that said if the knowledge gained from JF-17 evolution can be applied to Pakistani J-10 version then that's great.

have you seen mixed reality setups related to flight simulations? they are an interesting concept great for both commercial and military training.

this one is commercial and very impressive

this is military grade and based on F-16s

this one is a private setup but great work by that enthusiast

if the first two can be combined then they can serve as great training and entertainment platform (for high end rich boys) . only thing missing is the G force sensation and sudden tilts might produce limited 1 or 2 Gs .

wondering if PAF has similar setup

now think of combining the first two setups with this one. centrifugal spinning capsule with a 360 gyro mixed with a VR setup where human hand interaction with physical controls like stick and buttons.

A local group makes these in Pakistan for the PAF… it is now implemented for Mirages and F-7s.. but it is still VR view overall.

No motion simulator yet - as mentioned earlier PAF wants AR - so basically the physical cockpit coupled with the ability to switch to actual cockpit when looking below the frame.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

No - TFX is likely going to be either Eurojet or F-100 with a rare possibility of something from Motor-Sich later.

There may be elements of TFX Pakistan might take into a FC-31P


A local group makes these in Pakistan for the PAF… it is now implemented for Mirages and F-7s.. but it is still VR view overall.

No motion simulator yet - as mentioned earlier PAF wants AR - so basically the physical cockpit coupled with the ability to switch to actual cockpit when looking below the frame.

tbh I'd keep a close eye on Baykar Group. They're working on a twin-engine version of their Kizilelma UCAV. I think, at that point, you're entering manned fighter territory from a design complexity standpoint. This wouldn't be surprising either. Turkey lost out on the F-35B, but it still wants a complete maritime air warfare capability consisting of a manned fighter. TAI's doing some experimental stuff with the Hurjet, but I doubt that the Hurjet as-is would meet Turkey's needs.

I feel that Baykar Group could stealthily be working on a manned medium-weight fighter. I've taken some long shots before, e.g., seeing VLS on the PN MILGEM (done), pursuing a 3,000-ton-ish frigate (Jinnah-class), and an original LRMPA like Swordfish (Sea Sultan). But there were some signs pointing towards those outcomes. I see similar signs with Baykar Group working on its own manned fighter -- and, hear me out, I think the PAF could already be involved.

There's silence about AZM, but I don't think the energy for an original NGFA has gone away. Except now, I think the PAF could be directing it towards another original project, but with a capable partner with similar goals. The successor of the JF-17 could very well be in the works... but in the offices of a private Turkish company.

 

[Tank131]

tbh I'd keep a close eye on Baykar Group. They're working on a twin-engine version of their Kizilelma UCAV. I think, at that point, you're entering manned fighter territory from a design complexity standpoint. This wouldn't be surprising either. Turkey lost out on the F-35B, but it still wants a complete maritime air warfare capability consisting of a manned fighter. TAI's doing some experimental stuff with the Hurjet, but I doubt that the Hurjet as-is would meet Turkey's needs.

I feel that Baykar Group could stealthily be working on a manned medium-weight fighter. I've taken some long shots before, e.g., seeing VLS on the PN MILGEM (done), pursuing a 3,000-ton-ish frigate (Jinnah-class), and an original LRMPA like Swordfish (Sea Sultan). But there were some signs pointing towards those outcomes. I see similar signs with Baykar Group working on its own manned fighter -- and, hear me out, I think the PAF could already be involved.

There's silence about AZM, but I don't think the energy for an original NGFA has gone away. Except now, I think the PAF could be directing it towards another original project, but with a capable partner with similar goals. The successor of the JF-17 could very well be in the works... but in the offices of a private Turkish company.

I think for this to work you would need a Baykar Pakistan subsidiary otherwise it would have to have a partnership with PAC. Irrespective, if Pakistan is playing a role, it will need some amount of the IP pie (even if the work is turkish, some of the money is Pakistani).

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

tbh I'd keep a close eye on Baykar Group. They're working on a twin-engine version of their Kizilelma UCAV. I think, at that point, you're entering manned fighter territory from a design complexity standpoint. This wouldn't be surprising either. Turkey lost out on the F-35B, but it still wants a complete maritime air warfare capability consisting of a manned fighter. TAI's doing some experimental stuff with the Hurjet, but I doubt that the Hurjet as-is would meet Turkey's needs.

I feel that Baykar Group could stealthily be working on a manned medium-weight fighter. I've taken some long shots before, e.g., seeing VLS on the PN MILGEM (done), pursuing a 3,000-ton-ish frigate (Jinnah-class), and an original LRMPA like Swordfish (Sea Sultan). But there were some signs pointing towards those outcomes. I see similar signs with Baykar Group working on its own manned fighter -- and, hear me out, I think the PAF could already be involved.

There's silence about AZM, but I don't think the energy for an original NGFA has gone away. Except now, I think the PAF could be directing it towards another original project, but with a capable partner with similar goals. The successor of the JF-17 could very well be in the works... but in the offices of a private Turkish company.

Kale Group CEO yesterday said they're ready to working on TF-X engine as a JV with RR. The copyright will be owned by Kale. The final version of the proposal has been submitted to the Turkish Defense Industry secretariat. They're waiting for the go-ahead....

As for the TEI CEO (10 days ago), engineers are working on TF-X engine. As a first step - true engineering development progresses linearly - 6k lb thrust military-grade turbo-fan mock-up is shown. It can easily be graded up to 10k lb one with additional stages at the exhaust. The last leg is the F-22 grade engine.....

At the end of the day it's the Iman and Ihlas enveloping the constant Mujadele with the Sabr and Shukr to earn the Riza and Bereket from HIM. The rest are all Fasa Fiso like Bajwas, Sherifs, Zardaris etc....

 

[Beast]

I am not thinking too highly of the IAF. The problem is that certain Pakistani and Chinese members like overestimate themselves while underestimating IAF.

I actually think about the worst case scenario for the PAF. In terms of skills and professionalism I rate the PAF much higher than the IAF.

PAF is the only force in the contemporary history that has fought an air battle with a near peer adversary, which happens to be 6 times larger than Pakistan, in a very complex air environment (with force multipliers like AEWC/IFR, 4th generation plus aircraft, BVR missiles, complex air defense systems) and to come out on top. Credit where due.

However the reality is that the IAF is twice the size PAF and has twice the number of 4th generation aircraft.

Pakistan is a relatively big country,but lacks strategic depth. Pakistan at its widest point is only 500 kms wide and Indian satellites keep 24x7 watch over Pakistan. Most Pakistani air bases are close to the Indian border meaning they are vulnerable to Indian cruise missiles/ballistic missiles as well as IAF fighter aircraft.

Pakistan needs airbases in Afghanistan or build mountain airbases like China and North Korea have done.

It's more of those troll who overestimated Indian AF. Remember some Pakistanis even worry about the so called over rated BARS radar of MKI and indian even claim world best in Asia. And guess what magic of work in LOC 27th Feb air war?

And the enemies of China constantly trying to underestimate. See the amount of trash video and article produced by those bias troll who always talk down China technology. As if those things are zero tested. Those things do go thru real life simulation and vigorous testing that is no much different in real war situation. In fact some of the situation is over complicated than the real life they will encounter which makes the system robust and proven.

 

[siegecrossbow]

It's more of those troll who overestimated Indian AF. Remember some Pakistanis even worry about the so called over rated BARS radar of MKI and indian even claim world best in Asia. And guess what magic of work in LOC 27th Feb air war?

And the enemies of China constantly trying to underestimate. See the amount of trash video and article produced by those bias troll who always talk down China technology. As if those things are zero tested. Those things do go thru real life simulation and vigorous testing that is no much different in real war situation. In fact some of the situation is over complicated than the real life they will encounter which makes the system robust and proven.

When more things like this happens, their minds will change eventually.

 

[Beast]

When more things like this happens, their minds will change eventually.

View attachment 894855

China weapon don't tested well and unproven...

Then how did the HJ-8 ATGM work magic in Bosnia war taking forn Serbia tank? Or WL-1 UCAV taking down ISIS position in Iraqi war against terrorist while still return to base unhurt?

Or Pakistan or other armed forces who import Chinese arms don't do their own evaluation and purely taken by Chinese salesman words while import blindly?

Those evaluation put thru rigorously testing , tested against real life jamming and and same training combat scenario of continuous hours of combat sorties and drop the real life explosive PGM against targets. Fire BVRAAM at simulated targets with intense ECM imposed by simulated foes no different from war.

Precisely why PAF imported the J-10CE.

 

[renhai]

No - TFX is likely going to be either Eurojet or F-100 with a rare possibility of something from Motor-Sich later.

There may be elements of TFX Pakistan might take into a FC-31P


A local group makes these in Pakistan for the PAF… it is now implemented for Mirages and F-7s.. but it is still VR view overall.

No motion simulator yet - as mentioned earlier PAF wants AR - so basically the physical cockpit coupled with the ability to switch to actual cockpit when looking below the frame.

real?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1500044884090130436

https://twitter.com/x/status/1493574087859326983

 

[SQ8]

real?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1500044884090130436

https://twitter.com/x/status/1493574087859326983

F-100 was a front runner due to commonality with the F-16. The GE motor is also a front runner for the same reason because TuAF is familiar with the cores of both engines.

The XF-9 is an unknown quantity to me.
The AL-31 is very unlikely especially after Ukraine conflict.

I find the WS-10 unlikely as well - although it is possible that if Turkey designs a jet for Pakistan that may come with it - maybe a long derivative of TFx but not TFX itself.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

F-100 was a front runner due to commonality with the F-16. The GE motor is also a front runner for the same reason because TuAF is familiar with the cores of both engines.

The XF-9 is an unknown quantity to me.
The AL-31 is very unlikely especially after Ukraine conflict.

I find the WS-10 unlikely as well - although it is possible that if Turkey designs a jet for Pakistan that may come with it - maybe a long derivative of TFx but not TFX itself.

Yep, and it's worth remembering the Turkish Navy wanted the F-35B. So, there's an avenue for another fighter. However, it wouldn't surprise me if this ends up being a private sector project led by Baykar Group. They're taking point on developing air warfare solutions for the Turkish Navy, e.g., UAVs and UCAVs.

So, this work may evolve into a full-out NGFA. However, doing it for just 2-3 squadrons in the Turkish Navy isn't economical, so a large-scale requirement from either the Turkish Air Force or an outsider (e.g., the PAF) would be key.