PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[serenity]

India already operates nearly 300 Su-30MKI, and is looking to upgrade them. Acquiring 100 or so J-10 should be seen in that context as well.


If the PAF plans to acquire 90 or more J-10s, they might as well retool the JF-17 production line to also produce the J-10. Best way to move up the value added chain (more structural composite production, more sub-system production such as the IRST, etc.) more and service our fighters domestically.

Local production could also make structural modifications more easier to perform.

We should not engage in a arms race with India. PAF does have its own requirements for modernization. We need currently replace 150 older fighter jets. Also I am not worried about IAF Rafale fleet but their 274 SU-30MKI's.

Yes this is the case when considering that this is India's most numerous 4th generation fighter but the MKI is not a 4.5 generation fighter. It is a fighter with 1990s technology development basis and 2000s build. Using 1980s technology basis Soviet missile systems with 2000s and 2010s build. This is thoroughly base line 4th generation but just better than the first two blocks of 4th generation. Think of them as between 4th gen and 4.5 gen.

JF-17 block 2 is in this league while block 3 is above that when it comes to electronics, radar, software, and missile systems. The major drawback of JF-17 is that it is a tiny fighter and its subsystems are budget and smaller (generally less powerful) ones even if modern.

However a JF-17 block 2 using PL-12 have technology advantage over Su-30MKI in missile performance but MKI simply has better energy, range, payload and flight performance to edge out on JF-17.

To counter MKI using J-10 would be spending too much money for PAF to be sensible. Block 3 induction delays mean there is only J-10 and newer upgrades to F-16 on the cards for countering Rafale and MKI.

Hi,

J-10 and JF-17's are an extremely cost effective combo---price per unit as well as price per flight hour.

With aesa radar equipped---PL15's and PL10's missiles---they are an extremely potent combo in the non 5th gen realm.

JF 17 aircrafts have one of the fastest spool up time for the engine ( startup to ready to fly ).

A JF17 starts up at Kamra and an SU30 stars up at Srinagar at the same time---. The JF17 will be target locking at sri nagar from the air even before the SU30 took off from the ground.

From initial start to 5000 ft is extremely crucial in any combat---. JF 17 can do it very quick. Professionals can jump in and correct me.

Su-30 has much better climb rate and thrust to weight ratio. It should get to positions faster than JF-17.

 

[TheSolution]

Yes this is the case when considering that this is India's most numerous 4th generation fighter but the MKI is not a 4.5 generation fighter. It is a fighter with 1990s technology development basis and 2000s build. Using 1980s technology basis Soviet missile systems with 2000s and 2010s build. This is thoroughly base line 4th generation but just better than the first two blocks of 4th generation. Think of them as between 4th gen and 4.5 gen.

JF-17 block 2 is in this league while block 3 is above that when it comes to electronics, radar, software, and missile systems. The major drawback of JF-17 is that it is a tiny fighter and its subsystems are budget and smaller (generally less powerful) ones even if modern.

However a JF-17 block 2 using PL-12 have technology advantage over Su-30MKI in missile performance but MKI simply has better energy, range, payload and flight performance to edge out on JF-17.

To counter MKI using J-10 would be spending too much money for PAF to be sensible. Block 3 induction delays mean there is only J-10 and newer upgrades to F-16 on the cards for countering Rafale and MKI.

Doesn't the Su-30MKI also have the Astra missile equipped and the Israeli I-Derby ER?

 

[serenity]

Doesn't the Su-30MKI also have the Astra missile equipped and the Israeli I-Derby ER?

They do now yes quite true. Astra is still not in mass production.

Both surely better than the old R-77 or R-27 which are the main missiles for Su-30MKI.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

J-10 and JF-17's are an extremely cost effective combo---price per unit as well as price per flight hour.

With aesa radar equipped---PL15's and PL10's missiles---they are an extremely potent combo in the non 5th gen realm.

JF 17 aircrafts have one of the fastest spool up time for the engine ( startup to ready to fly ).

A JF17 starts up at Kamra and an SU30 stars up at Srinagar at the same time---. The JF17 will be target locking at sri nagar from the air even before the SU30 took off from the ground.

From initial start to 5000 ft is extremely crucial in any combat---. JF 17 can do it very quick. Professionals can jump in and correct me.

Did not know the JF-17 could spool up that fast, thanks for the info. Really hope they complete the motorway network, so that remote motorway bases can be utilized with the JF-17 to generate sprite numbers and maintain air superiority over Pakistan.

 

[FuturePAF]

Yes this is the case when considering that this is India's most numerous 4th generation fighter but the MKI is not a 4.5 generation fighter. It is a fighter with 1990s technology development basis and 2000s build. Using 1980s technology basis Soviet missile systems with 2000s and 2010s build. This is thoroughly base line 4th generation but just better than the first two blocks of 4th generation. Think of them as between 4th gen and 4.5 gen.

JF-17 block 2 is in this league while block 3 is above that when it comes to electronics, radar, software, and missile systems. The major drawback of JF-17 is that it is a tiny fighter and its subsystems are budget and smaller (generally less powerful) ones even if modern.

However a JF-17 block 2 using PL-12 have technology advantage over Su-30MKI in missile performance but MKI simply has better energy, range, payload and flight performance to edge out on JF-17.

To counter MKI using J-10 would be spending too much money for PAF to be sensible. Block 3 induction delays mean there is only J-10 and newer upgrades to F-16 on the cards for countering Rafale and MKI.



Su-30 has much better climb rate and thrust to weight ratio. It should get to positions faster than JF-17.

First, with that many fighters in their Air Force and the potential supply issue with regard to Russian spares, it’s obvious that they would want to do a real domestic Mid-Life upgrade. This is why we need to push our fighter to be their best.

This is why further development of the WS-13/WS-19 till it achieves the expected performance of the F-414EPE should be prioritized by the PAF. Better TWR, better fuel efficiency to allow longer sorties, more power for the radar and EW equipment, and the ability to carry greater payloads such as dedicated jamming pods or heavier A2G munitions (the J-10s should be freed up to fulfill the air superiority role, so the JF-17 should be upgraded to handle all A2G requirements, even longer range maritime strike; which would also help in export marketing for countries like Argentina). The JF-17 maybe classified as a light fighter, but it is nearly the same size as the F-16, but with a lower TWR.

Some redesign to accommodate more Ram Paint and ceramic stealth panels could help reduce the RCS enough that it would force fights in closer, where a pilot skill could be the deciding factor.

 

[Zarvan]

We should not engage in a arms race with India. PAF does have its own requirements for modernization. We need currently replace 150 older fighter jets. Also I am not worried about IAF Rafale fleet but their 274 SU-30MKI's.

You will be worried when they order 114 more.

 

[MastanKhan]

Did not know the JF-17 could spool up that fast, thanks for the info. Really hope they complete the motorway network, so that remote motorway bases can be utilized with the JF-17 to generate sprite numbers and maintain air superiority over Pakistan.

Hi,

Yessir---. That is why posted so close to the border---. Never underestimate that little bird----. There was a reason it was built that way---.

Su-30 has much better climb rate and thrust to weight ratio. It should get to positions faster than JF-17.

Hi,

Your comment has nothing in relation to what I commented on. Thank you.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Yes this is the case when considering that this is India's most numerous 4th generation fighter but the MKI is not a 4.5 generation fighter. It is a fighter with 1990s technology development basis and 2000s build. Using 1980s technology basis Soviet missile systems with 2000s and 2010s build. This is thoroughly base line 4th generation but just better than the first two blocks of 4th generation. Think of them as between 4th gen and 4.5 gen.

JF-17 block 2 is in this league while block 3 is above that when it comes to electronics, radar, software, and missile systems. The major drawback of JF-17 is that it is a tiny fighter and its subsystems are budget and smaller (generally less powerful) ones even if modern.

However a JF-17 block 2 using PL-12 have technology advantage over Su-30MKI in missile performance but MKI simply has better energy, range, payload and flight performance to edge out on JF-17.

To counter MKI using J-10 would be spending too much money for PAF to be sensible. Block 3 induction delays mean there is only J-10 and newer upgrades to F-16 on the cards for countering Rafale and MKI.



Su-30 has much better climb rate and thrust to weight ratio. It should get to positions faster than JF-17.

True, but it suffers from a much larger RCS. In contrast the JF-17 has a much smaller frontal profile, which offsets the advantage of MKI's radar.

 

[serenity]

True, but it suffers from a much larger RCS. In contrast the JF-17 has a much smaller frontal profile, which offsets the advantage of MKI's radar.

And yet the MKI's radar is thoroughly obsolete by 2022 standards. In fact, obsolete by 2010 standards when talking about leading edge.

Overall I do not believe 270 MKIs is more effective in air to air role than 270 JF-17 block 2. Radar obsolescnent performance and RCS are roughly going to balance each other, both have second to third tier radars by 2022 standards. In missiles domain, PL-12 is considerably better than R-27 and better than R-77. The only missiles roughly equal to PL-12 are I-Derby and Astra which MKI are not massively equipped with. PL-15 is on another level when comparing with Astra... look at the difference between India and China's rocketry technologies, fuel technologies, explosives technologies, materials technologies, electronics technologies, and rocket engine technologies. There's zero comparison. Basically a shit undergrad compared to world renowned researcher.

Astra being equal to even PL-12 I have my doubts about. Now JF-17 block 3 will spot MKI from over 200km away in part thanks to MKI's monstrous RCS. After all the detection range vs RCS is exponential. Block 3 has AESA albeit a very budget one and limited in power, it is technologically like comparing LED to incandescent light bulbs if not even to candles in terms of technology principle. PL-15 of block 3 even in export variant is far superior to MKI's best missiles I-Derby and Astra. But block 3 is not in service and over 270 MKI are. So the only comparison of volume fighter is JF-17 block 2 which are much lower in numbers than MKI.

PAF is in a massive numerical disadvantage and cannot arms race India into any sort of victory but it doesn't need to when the aim is deterrence.

India can overwhelm Pakistan but at unacceptable costs. The balance of that cost is where PAF needs to ensure it doesn't fall too far behind in acquisitions but the advantage here is India has little to no domestic capability to produce even 4.5 generation fighter and put into service in significant numbers. Therefore it imports top shelf products and that is exceedingly expensive which helps the price component of arms racing and not falling far behind balance.

If we put F-35, F-22, J-20 in first tier category of inservice fighters in terms of capability ranges. MKI is third tier, below second tier - Typhoons, J-10C, J-16, latest Rafale, latest F-15 F-16 etc. The Indians have delayed upgrading them to the point even J-11B (origin units in below MKI league) upgrades are more capable and done for far more units (AESA and general systems upgrades). JF-17 block 3 would approach the second tier and sit on the boundary basically when only considered for pure A2A role because it's overall performance vs everything out there is quite limited by size.

Rafale gives IAF something in the second tier, they have purchased 36 units of the latest block with the best weapons. PAF's J-10CE purchase lets PAF get something in the second tier in response. Here, it is the absolute best of France and what France has to offer vs the absolute most budget in production fighter that China has to offer. For security, PAF should aim for a 1.5:1 ratio of J-10CE:Rafale. Certainly the price allows for this and more.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Yessir---. That is why posted so close to the border---. Never underestimate that little bird----. There was a reason it was built that way---.


Hi,

Your comment has nothing in relation to what I commented on. Thank you.

Would the JF-17 benefit significantly with the inclusion of an APU for motorway operations? (Allowing it to be less reliant on ground equipment, and only requiring a few ground crew to quickly service the jet, refuel and rearm it, and return it to the fight ASAP)

 

[MastanKhan]

Would the JF-17 benefit significantly with the inclusion of an APU for motorway operations? (Allowing it to be less reliant on ground equipment, and only requiring a few ground crew to quickly service the jet, refuel and rearm it, and return it to the fight ASAP)

Hi,,

As great as it looks---the motorway operation is for losers---it is for a lost cause---it is a last ditch effort to save your self till someone comes to your rescue---or die fighting till the end just to have the living say " look how they died----".

With the downfall of russia---sweden won't be landing Gripens on the freeways anymore---. The russian myth is broken---.

Technology is king---have a better product in large numbers---have better killing machines---and forget about the freeways---hurt the enemy so bad----that you don't have to hide on the freeways---.

 

[VkdIndian]

True, but it suffers from a much larger RCS. In contrast the JF-17 has a much smaller frontal profile, which offsets the advantage of MKI's radar.

Wouldn’t radar performance be based on power too? It would give it capability to detect and lock on to a target with an RCS above a certain threshold. JF-17s profile is small but with weapons and missiles loaded, the RCS is likely to increase, compared to that with no external weapons.

Block 3’s AESA would be better as a technology but SU-30 pumps in massive amount of power and that would allow it to detect targets at a farther range. JF-17s RCS must be quite low but if it is above a certain threshold then it would be still detected and locked on to.
Only caveat is that SU-30 should have a capable missile and be able to get a launch solution to exploit the radar lock. That is a different story all together as we saw after 26/11.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

Wouldn’t radar performance be based on power too? It would give it capability to detect and lock on to a target with an RCS above a certain threshold, JF-17s profile is small but with weapons and missiles loaded the RCS is likely to increase it compared to that with no external weapons.

Block 3’s AESA would be better as a technology but SU-30 pumps in massive amount of power that would allow it to detect targets at a farther range. JF-17s RCS must be quite low but if it is above a certain threshold then it would be still detected and locked on to.
Only caveat is that SU-30 should be able to get a launch solution to exploit the radar lock and that is a different story all together as we saw after 26/11.

Bars is actually not that powerful, it has a peak power output of 4-5 kW. Which might be more than KLJ-7A but not by a lot.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Bars is actually not that powerful, it has a peak power output of 4-5 kW. Which might be more than KLJ-7A but not by a lot.

Radar power level/antenna is only part of the equation though. As I have emphasized many times before the backend DSP is just as, if not more important than the antenna/power level. A lot of people dismiss the radar on Rafale for being small but in reality, size isn’t everything.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

The Game Changer