PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[TNT]

Seriously stop using the word omnirole. It sounds indian and stupid and is like copying indians. What is wrong in using multirole?

 

[serenity]

Cutting edge of capability? Surely this is too much hyperbole. It's a fine 4.5 gen lightweight fighter. Not close to cutting edge which would be what is being developed in countries like US and China to replace 5th generation fighters or at least make them much more capable in combination with many other platforms to make that network harder.

 

[Bilal.]

Cutting edge of capability? Surely this is too much hyperbole. It's a fine 4.5 gen lightweight fighter. Not close to cutting edge which would be what is being developed in countries like US and China to replace 5th generation fighters or at least make them much more capable in combination with many other platforms to make that network harder.

From Pakistan’s context. Is it cutting edge compared to the generation of Rafale, EF, etc?

 

[Zarvan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1571406733154689024

 

[serenity]

From Pakistan’s context. Is it cutting edge compared to the generation of Rafale, EF, etc?

Okay. I read that statement as general rather than Pakistan specific.

As for regional being able to outgun any aircraft it is quite a confident or arrogant statement since Rafale in IAF certainly is considered in that region if China is not considered (since China obviously outguns J-10CP for obvious reasons). But Rafale in IAF service is the best Rafale available with French American AESA unit and Meteor missile. It has higher thrust to weight and overall thrust for higher power for electronics, it has more payload capability and has longer range on internal fuel only and longer range when taking equal volume external tanks.

I think it is quite puzzling for the statement to suggest J-10CP can outgun Rafale. It is a good budget fighter and decent lightweight 4.5 gen fighter but Rafale is a medium weight 4.5 gen fighter with all the advantages that come with that alone. It may have advantage in other respects since it is the absolute best of France while J-10CP is China's budget high volume single engine fighter. J-10CP I would imagine for PAF is less than 1/3 the price of IAF's Rafale.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

Okay. I read that statement as general rather than Pakistan specific.

As for regional being able to outgun any aircraft it is quite a confident or arrogant statement since Rafale in IAF certainly is considered in that region if China is not considered (since China obviously outguns J-10CP for obvious reasons). But Rafale in IAF service is the best Rafale available with French American AESA unit and Meteor missile. It has higher thrust to weight and overall thrust for higher power for electronics, it has more payload capability and has longer range on internal fuel only and longer range when taking equal volume external tanks.

I think it is quite puzzling for the statement to suggest J-10CP can outgun Rafale. It is a good budget fighter and decent lightweight 4.5 gen fighter but Rafale is a medium weight 4.5 gen fighter with all the advantages that come with that alone. It may have advantage in other respects since it is the absolute best of France while J-10CP is China's budget high volume single engine fighter. J-10CP I would imagine for PAF is less than 1/3 the price of IAF's Rafale.

You seem to have several misconceptions. Rafale with its tiny radar isn't hard to outgun. Both J-10C and Rafale are Medium Fighters. Rafale has 2x low thrust engines while J-10C has 1x high thrust engine. J-10C is not a budget fighter, It's China's premier 4.5 gen fighter.

I will give you one example; F-35 was sold to countries for around 80 mil USD per unit while Rafale and Eurofighter have been sold for as much as 200 mil USD. Does this mean F-35 is a budget fighter? Or that Rafale and Eurofighter are better than F-35? You should go look up what Economies of scale and Purchasing power parity is first.

 

[Basel]

This is what Ghufran aka @timberwolf creator of the military-photoshops.blogspot.com made on my request back in 2012 (Here). This camouflage is called Nato Standard Grey / Green Camouflage and you'd notice it on most of the cold war era European aircrafts. I always wanted to see our J-10 & JF-17 dedicated attack sqn. in this camouflage.

Take a look at JFT in same color scheme.

View attachment 874030

Why this old camouflage in today's time, when we have better camouflage schemes available??

 

[Deino]

Why this old camouflage in today's time, when we have better camouflage schemes available??

Heritage, tradition, sentimentality ... some sort of historic feeling!?

 

[Basel]

Heritage, tradition, sentimentality ... some sort of historic feeling!?

Just found this on Facebook which show normal camouflage scheme like before for new batch.

 

[serenity]

You seem to have several misconceptions. Rafale with its tiny radar isn't hard to outgun. Both J-10C and Rafale are Medium Fighters. Rafale has 2x low thrust engines while J-10C has 1x high thrust engine. J-10C is not a budget fighter, It's China's premier 4.5 gen fighter.

I will give you one example; F-35 was sold to countries for around 80 mil USD per unit while Rafale and Eurofighter have been sold for as much as 200 mil USD. Does this mean F-35 is a budget fighter? Or that Rafale and Eurofighter are better than F-35? You should go look up what Economies of scale and Purchasing power parity is first.

The fact that F-35 have been sold for 80M while Typhoon and Rafale have been sold in the past for close to 200M just this alone without even concern for why and what are in those deal packages, already still does not prove your point that J-10 is NOT a budget fighter.

Because the concept of economies of scale and PPP exist and are applicable to situations, does NOT mean these concepts apply to the very specific J-10 manufacturing and price and so on. Yes J-10 is very high value fighter. It is easily (in my opinion) one of the if not the best fighter for around 40M acquisition cost.

However this does not mean it is NOT a budget. The only fighters in China known to be currently produced (not specifying variants) are J-10, J-15, J-16, J-20, and J-31/35. Out of this list, J-10 is easily the least capable OVERALL and definitely the cheapest by far. In fact J-16 is said to be nearly similar in price to J-20. That is a rumor but there we go. J-15 block 2s are with AESA and other improvements and definitely much more expensive than J-10 even ignoring navy requirements for certain concerns.

The fact that yes PLAAF buys a lot of J-10 and definitely 100% without doubt it has economies of scale advantage certainly much more so than Rafale still also in this case and this topic, does NOT prove it is better than Rafale much less talk about outgunning. That is too much assumption and arrogance to hold over a potential adversary. Leaders must never hold such attitudes for failure is certain but for fans like us, well who cares right. And with that, I shall say who cares to this topic. In my opinion J-10CP is not as capable overall as Rafale BUT it is also considerably more affordable and how it is used can be elevating its abilities. There are many optimal points to adjust with regards to a fighter acquisition.

With PAF's purchase, I think they made a good decision. To say with confidence that it can outgun Rafale though is Indian media/government level of ridiculousness. Certainly even if that is the case, it ought not be said so directly for many many reasons. If it isn't the case, then suggesting it is welcoming trouble. If it is unknown, then the ones making the claim so openly are simply fools.

 

[Abid123]

You seem to have several misconceptions. Rafale with its tiny radar isn't hard to outgun. Both J-10C and Rafale are Medium Fighters. Rafale has 2x low thrust engines while J-10C has 1x high thrust engine. J-10C is not a budget fighter, It's China's premier 4.5 gen fighter.

I will give you one example; F-35 was sold to countries for around 80 mil USD per unit while Rafale and Eurofighter have been sold for as much as 200 mil USD. Does this mean F-35 is a budget fighter? Or that Rafale and Eurofighter are better than F-35? You should go look up what Economies of scale and Purchasing power parity is first.

I stopped reading after he referred to the J-10C as "light weight fighter".

 

[Bilal.]

The fact that F-35 have been sold for 80M while Typhoon and Rafale have been sold in the past for close to 200M just this alone without even concern for why and what are in those deal packages, already still does not prove your point that J-10 is NOT a budget fighter.

Because the concept of economies of scale and PPP exist and are applicable to situations, does NOT mean these concepts apply to the very specific J-10 manufacturing and price and so on. Yes J-10 is very high value fighter. It is easily (in my opinion) one of the if not the best fighter for around 40M acquisition cost.

However this does not mean it is NOT a budget. The only fighters in China known to be currently produced (not specifying variants) are J-10, J-15, J-16, J-20, and J-31/35. Out of this list, J-10 is easily the least capable OVERALL and definitely the cheapest by far. In fact J-16 is said to be nearly similar in price to J-20. That is a rumor but there we go. J-15 block 2s are with AESA and other improvements and definitely much more expensive than J-10 even ignoring navy requirements for certain concerns.

The fact that yes PLAAF buys a lot of J-10 and definitely 100% without doubt it has economies of scale advantage certainly much more so than Rafale still also in this case and this topic, does NOT prove it is better than Rafale much less talk about outgunning. That is too much assumption and arrogance to hold over a potential adversary. Leaders must never hold such attitudes for failure is certain but for fans like us, well who cares right. And with that, I shall say who cares to this topic. In my opinion J-10CP is not as capable overall as Rafale BUT it is also considerably more affordable and how it is used can be elevating its abilities. There are many optimal points to adjust with regards to a fighter acquisition.

With PAF's purchase, I think they made a good decision. To say with confidence that it can outgun Rafale though is Indian media/government level of ridiculousness. Certainly even if that is the case, it ought not be said so directly for many many reasons. If it isn't the case, then suggesting it is welcoming trouble. If it is unknown, then the ones making the claim so openly are simply fools.

PAF said the same for F-16 over MKIs when india was boasting SU-30MKI as f-22 of the East and mini AWACS. And many of us were skeptical of PAF’s confidence.

Turns out they knew exactly what they were talking about when the MKIs got owned.

 

[Bratva]

PAF said the same for F-16 over MKIs when india was boasting SU-30MKI as f-22 of the East and mini AWACS. And many of us were skeptical of PAF’s confidence.

Turns out they knew exactly what they were talking about when the MKIs got owned.

2 factors owned MKI. Long range BVR missile on F-16 and Lack of long range BVR on MKI. The Unauthorized missile fired on MKI by W.C Siddiqui did expose the myth of MKI. But in doing so, IAF has bough long range sticks as well. So Next time, both will be firing Long range sticks at each other and the Best quality manufacturer will win.

 

[Bilal.]

2 factors owned MKI. Long range BVR missile on F-16 and Lack of long range BVR on MKI. The Unauthorized missile fired on MKI by W.C Siddiqui did expose the myth of MKI. But in doing so, IAF has bough long range sticks as well. So Next time, both will be firing Long range sticks at each other and the Best quality manufacturer will win.

True, also the radar and it’s ECCM capability got exposed too.

IAF’s long sticks were on their way anyways (meteor and indigenous solutions), the timeline got compressed by a couple of years which all in all have been in consequential.

Also in the context of the discussion, if PAF is portraying same confidence vis a vis Rafale then this time I am a bit less skeptical.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Next batch test flying!