PAF in 2015 & 2025

[Quwa]

L-15 lead in fighter trainer? If the PLAAF finalizes a standard contract, expect Pakistan, Egypt & Venezuela to order a number for their LIFT requirements. Of all aircraft of this class, the L-15 would be the lower cost option from a reliable supplier.

Hürkuş basic trainer? Possible Mushak/Super Mushak replacement after 2015? Apparently the new generation of prop trainers can also take up basic flight training done by T-37.

Locally built AWACS (developed with China)? This is inevitable and will happen, just a question of platforms. Would PAF use IL-76 - especially since China will produce the aircraft under license - and achieve commonality with the IL-78 refueler aircraft? OR would PAF seek a new platform like Boeing 737 NG or A320E?

It is worth noting that the PN will have to consider a replacement for its P-3C Orion to begin inducting sometime after 2020. EADS will likely use an MPA based off A320E - maybe PAF and PN want to have to standardize on a single platform in order to reduce logistical costs? Perhaps build a case to have a spare-parts production line raised in Pakistan? So a competition between A320 MPA & P-8 Poseidon could translate into an AWACS platform competition between A320E & Boeing 737 NG?

2nd refueling aircraft?

Well IL-78 is by far the cheaper alternative, but given the U.S contract for A330 MRTT will have a positive effect on the system's cost. Saudi Arabia & UAE have also ordered A330 MRTT, and it may join Turkey & Egypt in the future. In any case, the ACM did mention through AFM that another refueling aircraft was in contention...who knows.

Advanced F-16s (similar to Block-60)? The PAF is putting a lot of money and effort in raising the Block-52's infrastructure. Not sure if we would get something as drastic as Block-60 or F-16IN - might be too costly. However more Block-52+ - except with AESA, better avionics, better ECM/EW, etc, is possible. The production line will be open until 2012, so there's time to order.

Advanced J-11B (in league of Su-35BM)? Might be a longer shot, but give it some time though. PAF might not invest in a twin-engine fighter nor would China sell the aircraft before completing the initial J-11 batch of 200 or so fighters. However after 2015 it might be a different story...

The J-11B production line might be larger and faster? The Chinese could develop a J-11B variant that is equal or superior to the SU-35BM? Commonality between J-11B and FC-20 exists in the form of engines, weapon-systems, perhaps certain parts, radar, etc? PAF might be able to use J-11B as a solid maritime and/or strike fighter? Perhaps use it has a long-range interceptor and mini-AWACS...create more network centric tiers?

5th Generation Combat Aircraft? Pakistan can develop UCAVs in cooperation with Turkey and China. The Chinese have a number of interesting turbofan projects like WS-11 & WS-12 that could be used on UCAVs. Such aircraft would be very useful in offensive strike missions; reconnaissance or even anti-air applications against AWACS?

Manned aircraft I have explained quite a bit; the Chinese are developing the J-14 as an equivalent to F/A-22...so they may be looking at a lighter supplement similar to F-35. This would likely be an export oriented fighter and may see some serious interest from the Arab world - so Pakistan would be a natural partner. Heck the Turks and Saudis can use the aircraft as a cheaper supplement to their fleet...Malaysia, Egypt & Algeria may also join.

 

[fatman17]

L-15 lead in fighter trainer? If the PLAAF finalizes a standard contract, expect Pakistan, Egypt & Venezuela to order a number for their LIFT requirements. Of all aircraft of this class, the L-15 would be the lower cost option from a reliable supplier.

Hürkuş basic trainer? Possible Mushak/Super Mushak replacement after 2015? Apparently the new generation of prop trainers can also take up basic flight training done by T-37.

Locally built AWACS (developed with China)? This is inevitable and will happen, just a question of platforms. Would PAF use IL-76 - especially since China will produce the aircraft under license - and achieve commonality with the IL-78 refueler aircraft? OR would PAF seek a new platform like Boeing 737 NG or A320E?

It is worth noting that the PN will have to consider a replacement for its P-3C Orion to begin inducting sometime after 2020. EADS will likely use an MPA based off A320E - maybe PAF and PN want to have to standardize on a single platform in order to reduce logistical costs? Perhaps build a case to have a spare-parts production line raised in Pakistan? So a competition between A320 MPA & P-8 Poseidon could translate into an AWACS platform competition between A320E & Boeing 737 NG?

2nd refueling aircraft?

Well IL-78 is by far the cheaper alternative, but given the U.S contract for A330 MRTT will have a positive effect on the system's cost. Saudi Arabia & UAE have also ordered A330 MRTT, and it may join Turkey & Egypt in the future. In any case, the ACM did mention through AFM that another refueling aircraft was in contention...who knows.

Advanced F-16s (similar to Block-60)? The PAF is putting a lot of money and effort in raising the Block-52's infrastructure. Not sure if we would get something as drastic as Block-60 or F-16IN - might be too costly. However more Block-52+ - except with AESA, better avionics, better ECM/EW, etc, is possible. The production line will be open until 2012, so there's time to order.

Advanced J-11B (in league of Su-35BM)? Might be a longer shot, but give it some time though. PAF might not invest in a twin-engine fighter nor would China sell the aircraft before completing the initial J-11 batch of 200 or so fighters. However after 2015 it might be a different story...

The J-11B production line might be larger and faster? The Chinese could develop a J-11B variant that is equal or superior to the SU-35BM? Commonality between J-11B and FC-20 exists in the form of engines, weapon-systems, perhaps certain parts, radar, etc? PAF might be able to use J-11B as a solid maritime and/or strike fighter? Perhaps use it has a long-range interceptor and mini-AWACS...create more network centric tiers?

5th Generation Combat Aircraft? Pakistan can develop UCAVs in cooperation with Turkey and China. The Chinese have a number of interesting turbofan projects like WS-11 & WS-12 that could be used on UCAVs. Such aircraft would be very useful in offensive strike missions; reconnaissance or even anti-air applications against AWACS?

Manned aircraft I have explained quite a bit; the Chinese are developing the J-14 as an equivalent to F/A-22...so they may be looking at a lighter supplement similar to F-35. This would likely be an export oriented fighter and may see some serious interest from the Arab world - so Pakistan would be a natural partner. Heck the Turks and Saudis can use the aircraft as a cheaper supplement to their fleet...Malaysia, Egypt & Algeria may also join.

Real good stuff - i am wondering if there is a group/deptt within the PAF who is also thinking on similar lines.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Hürkuş basic trainer? Possible Mushak/Super Mushak replacement after 2015? Apparently the new generation of prop trainers can also take up basic flight training done by T-37.

Advanced F-16s (similar to Block-60)? The PAF is putting a lot of money and effort in raising the Block-52's infrastructure. Not sure if we would get something as drastic as Block-60 or F-16IN - might be too costly. However more Block-52+ - except with AESA, better avionics, better ECM/EW, etc, is possible. The production line will be open until 2012, so there's time to order.

This traini looks very similar to that of american T-6A Texan II in all aspects.
But still our Super Mushak is a very capable trani, and heck its even one of american military analysts favorite trani and O/A.
this is what he has to say about our baby!
1st Tactical Studies Group (Airborne): Combat Reform Group
Its sad that the Pakistani Air Force is better equipped with observation/attack (O/A) aircraft than the U.S. Army, Air Force, Navy or marines but there it is; our too-fast, nation-state war (NSW), maximize volence, fighter-bomber jocks and too-slow rotor-heads have perverted all American air arms with their soak-the-taxpayers, large platform cash cows and egorackets so we don't have the small O/A aircraft needed to smother violence in sub-national conflicts (SNCs):
The amazing, forward-swept wing Saab MFI-9 Supporter observation/attack/light transport plane has excellent pilot/observer downward visibility and was used with devastating effect in the Biafra war in 1967-70 by Swedish Count Carl Gustav von Rosen's privately funded and personally-lead "Mini-Coin" air force
Maybe we should have Ross Perot buy us an O/A plane force of MFI-17s from Sweden or Pakistan and have his former USAF pilot son, Ross Jr. lead the effort over Afghanistan/Iraq so we could have some EFFECTIVE 24/7/365 maneuver air support? If bureaucratic racketeers don't want to do the job right, PROFESSIONALS should DIY.
Imagine if we re-engined the MFI-17 with a low IR signature, DeltaHawk diesel piston engine and a 5-bladed prop for sound stealth....painted in sky gray camouflage....

As for F-16s. we have plan to buy only 18 of them but isnt it wright that US is not willing to supply us AESA with other sensitive systems?
and Please tell me if i am wrong.. we getting all of these F-16s for free? i mean that from $5 billion military aid package?

 

[sohailbutt]

As for F-16s. we have plan to buy only 18 of them but isnt it wright that US is not willing to supply us AESA with other sensitive systems?
and Please tell me if i am wrong.. we getting all of these F-16s for free? i mean that from $5 billion military aid package?

i cant really say anythin abut AESA on our f-16's but bro, u shuld be knowing that these new f-16's r not bought from US aid, they r bought from completely Pak money, they dont have anythin to do with US aid.

YES, u r wrong abut the $5 Billion US military aid package, this is no aid it is all Pak money.

 

[circuitbaba]

J-XX as its a 5 gen AC...I doubt we will get F-35...and even if we get it there is possibily of sanctions......bu honestly until 2025 J-10,JF-17 and F-16 can do the job.....as the other side(IAF) will still be flying Mig-21(few upgraded) ,Mig-27,Mig29,Mirage-2000 and Flankers and am quite sure Mig-35 as MRCA ....I doubt T-50 or PAK-FA will be operaional in iAF at that time.....so PAF still has 20-25 years b4 it needs a whole new jet

 

[khanz]

no way we'll get f-35 rafale is probably the most realistic choice french are desperate for export and we already have loads of mirages.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Future Fighter Aircraft for PAF

Army have got enough Cobras now to take care of close support missions. Cobras can do strafing, rocketing and ATGM attacks, leaving only bombing, be it cluster or dumb or guided. Cobras can be provided with escorts from PAF, if needed.

A-5s, F-7s, Mirages are also there to give close support. All these three would not be retired together and JF-17 can continue in that direction too. Our K-8s can do it too at low-risk levels and it is possible that IAF may use its Hawks too. An aircombat between Hawk and K-8 is a good possibility.

This means that the role for next PAF fighter should be air superiority, air escort, SEAD, precision bombing and maritime capability. Air superiority and escort call for an excellent radar, IRST, BVR+WVR AAMs, long range or endurance and flight performance better than F-16. Now it can be studied as to which fighter better fulfils these requirements.

If we dont go for J-11, we may maintain one advantage of visual IFF. That is that all TWIN-TAIL aircraft are NOT ours, just shoot them down without going through D of OODA (Observation, Orientation, Decsion, Action).

But another advantage of J-11 is its range. Like Su-30s, we can fly over Indian Ocean, far from shore, and enter the Indian airspace for example from South, like over jamnagar,Pune or Bhuj.

If we dont want J-11, then a fighter that can carry Conformal Fuel tanks should be considered.

If God forbade there is a war before the induction of this proposed new fighter, another visual IFF clue is that any jet fighter with DOUBLE-NOZZLES is NOT ours. Again drop D from OODA. We only have A-5 as twin-engine but its nozzles are buried inside the fuselage. Thus keep looking for DOUBLE NOZZLED or BOUBLE FINNED fighters, it may be Jaguar or Mig-29 or Su-30 and possibly future IAF MRCA. Man just dont think over it.

For Escort, a high energy is required, like acceleration in vertical climb, a high climb rate. In vertical scissors, its the engine power wrt weight that matters. Even in horizontal dogfight, the turning fight comes down to low-level after each turn. The pilots exchange height for gaining energy and the ability to climb without losing speed is something important.

Radar non other than AESA, WVR AAM not to include Sidewinder (say Good bye) but more advanced heat-sniffers capable of HOBA attacks and maneuverability such that it can at least pull lead pursuit on F-16A while F-16A is at its corner speed................Now I think its not much difficult to decide................

 

[vish]

Future Fighter Aircraft for PAF

Army had got enough Cobras now to take care of close support missions. Cobras can do strafing, rocketing and ATGM attacks, leaving only bombing, be it cluster or dumb or guided. Cobras can be provided with escorts from PAF, if needed.

A-5s, F-7s, Mirages are also there to give close support. All these three would not be retired together and JF-17 can continue in that direction too. Our K-8s can do it too at low-risk levels and it is possible that IAF may use its Hawks too. An aircombat between Hawk and K-8 is a good possibility.

This means that the role for next PAF fighter should be air superiority, air escort, SEAD, precision bombing and maritime capability. Air superiority and escort call for an excellent radar, IRST, BVR+WVR AAMs, long range or endurance and flight performance better than F-16. Now it can be studied as to which fighter better fulfils these requirements.

If we dont go for J-11, we may maintain one advantage of visual IFF. That is that all TWIN-TAIL aircraft are NOT ours, just shoot them down without going through D of OODA (Observation, Orientation, Decsion, Action).

But another advantage of J-11 is its range. Like Su-30s, we can fly over Indian Ocean, far from shore, and enter the Indian airspace for example from South, like over jamnagar,Pune or Bhuj.

If we dont want J-11, then a fighter that can carry Conformal Fuel tanks should be considered.

If God forbade there is a war before the induction of this proposed new fighter, another visual IFF clue is that any jet fighter with DOUBLE-NOZZLES is NOT ours. Again drop D from OODA. We only have A-5 as twin-engine but its nozzles are buried inside the fuselage. Thus keep looking for DOUBLE NOZZLED or BOUBLE FINNED fighters, it may be Jaguar or Mig-29 or Su-30 and possibly future IAF MRCA. Man just dont think over it.

For Escort, a high energy is required, like acceleration in vertical climb, a high climb rate. In vertical scissors, its the engine power wrt weight that matters. Even in horizontal dogfight, the turning fight comes down to low-level after each turn. The pilots exchange height for gaining energy and the ability to climb without losing speed is something important.

Radar non other than AESA, WVR AAM not to include Sidewinder (say Good bye) but more advanced heat-sniffers capable of HOBA attacks and maneuverability such that it can at least pull lead pursuit on F-16A while F-16A is at its corner speed................Now I think its not much difficult to decide................

Your knowledge is impressive.

Just one question, does Pakistan need a 5th-gen fighter?

I don't intend to downplay the PAF here, but I genuinely don't see an immediate high-priority need for any. In my view the PAF needs more deep-strike aircraft.

Further, won't the sales of J-11 to Pakistan have severe repurcursions for Sino-Russian relations?

 

[shehbazi2001]

Deep penetration is a already a requirement of the new fighter. And about J-11, I think alternatives can be sought. It is only one of several options but still it depends on the diplomacy.

Do we need a fifth-generation fighter?.....looking from minimum deterrence point of view and not balance of power, the threat due to Su-30s to some extent "seems" to be addressed by newer and upgraded F-16s at least in the air defence scenario.

But the upgrading of Mig-29s and Mirage-2000s plus newer MMRCA shall disturb this situation. Its not logical to match the IAF in numbers, but all PAF have tried is to match it in technology.

 

[ewjlu]

J-10 is not very important for china. The most important is the Chinese engineering team for J-10 have learnt a lot from the whole developing process. Copy is the starting point but not ending , innovation is based on it.I believe china can design a fully new modern aircraft on our own in the future.

 

[salman nedian]

Wat Aircraft can we get and should get other then F-16's,Jf-17's and j10's ??

I think when we are acquiring capabilities to develop fighter aircrafts than we should capitalize on it by promoting R&D and make timely enhancements to JF-17s and J-10s to meet the modern needs.

 

[EagleEyes]

Is pakistan getting FBC 1 from china

No it is not.

 

[EagleEyes]

Pakistan sent no F-16 to China for transfer of technology purposes. All of such talks are baseless and bullshit speculations.

 

[JK!]

Than from who

No one it is only being produced by China.

 

[Keysersoze]

I like to know how does china build jf-17&J-10

Ingenuity and resourcefulness.

I would suggest reading the title page on this site or using Google. It is all explained.