PAF Able to Stop Drones - ACM

[Kasrkin]

That may not happen, lest the technology might fall into the hands of your chinese brothers.

They were already leased to us for a while, and I'm pretty sure they were used during the Lal Masjid Operation.

slugger, the notion that America has pushed Pakistan against a wall, with a knife at its throat and essentially has the entire nation hostage is not exactly the more mature or impartial analysis. It’s not a surprise that Pakistan’s ill-wishers would like to think that, but that’s a one sided collection of essentially political rubbish and half-truths.

But even if we do consider for a moment that what you say is true [naaah], then don't you find it illogical that on the one hand you are providing intel about the presence of Terrorist elements on your own land to the US and then when they take action based on your intel (unlikely), you protest.

Which is why I suggested that these drones operate from Pakistani protection, that would save everyone a lot of controversy. And no you can’t read my mind, I seriously do think that Pakistani elements are involved in these air raids, but I have no proof so I obviously wont say “I KNOW”.

 

[S-2]

Trust may not be reflected here at def.pk. Certainly this forum is a sounding board that permits the expression of emotions as much as fact or logic. That said, friendship is at a low ebb because we can afford it to be. There's little consequence beyond hurt feelings and anger.

At the diplomatic and professional military levels requirements and orders imposed by each nation's leaders have led to increasing cooperation and there are, therefore, no such allowances for such sentiment. The brigade commander from RC-East indicates that meetings are occurring frequently now between counter-parts- his and even down to his company commanders. That's an increasing confluence of interests that are extending deep into both nation's militaries if so.

We know that there are training activities undertaken at your SSG base involving our forces and F.C./P.A. officers. We know that there's a PREDATOR feed going into the Torckum(?) coordination center (Khyber Pass?) that's jointly manned. We know that combat operations are increasingly being synchronized/coordinated along both sides of the border- particularly in Kunar/Bajaur. We know that the targeting intel for PREDATOR has rapidly escalated to through-the-roof good.

Neither side gains by expressing the emotions seen here so I'm sure (with occasional exceptions) contacts are collegial and productive. Regardless of the past, this alone can begin to change perceptions where it most matters-among our respective combattant officers and their men. If both sides are working towards the commonly-shared interests, that'll be seen and absorbed as a portion of the newly emerging narrative.

I hope so anyway.

 

[blain2]

wishful thinking.

No offence meant, but from all the info available in public domain, it is quite evident that the US is certain of the fact that members of your Armed Forces are hand in glove with the very people the US is targetting

Lets not get ahead of ourselves with this assumption that members of the Armed Forces are hand in glove etc. etc. What are the facts to back that generalized assertion? What we are aware of is the links between the old Afghan war Pashtun network and ISI operatives at the lower level having linkages with them. We are also aware that former ISI officers may also have some linkages and the leaks have been attributed to these folks. There is not one iota of evidence about any senior military officer of the Pakistan Armed forces passing on information to individuals who are up against our own troops.

Only those having a 10,000 ft view of the situation would claim that Pakistani armed forces are hand in glove with the same elements that we are up against in a counter insurgency campaign. Only those who have no knowledge of how the ISI works would claim something so simplistic as above.
Some leakage is bound to happen. There are assets on the ground with whom intelligence has to be shared so they can keep their contacts alive. This is not a simple game of you find someone and attack them without any repercussions. Information has to be exchanged which sometimes would result in the targets getting away and at other times being neutralized.

I am sure information exchange in Iraq and Afghanistan is all the same. Some level of leakage is a fact of life. The relationship has to look beyond that.

Strategically important targets will always be hunted by the US themselves without prior intimation to you.

Really and how do we know this? Or is this another rub on the Pakistanis with this "without prior intimation to you."? I will just go to the extent of mentioning one thing here. Without Pakistani intel input, not even 10% of the US strikes would be successful. Sat and aerial intelligence is only one small part of the intelligence gathering business based on which these strikes take place, the other 90% is all humint which belongs to the Pakistani security forces and local contacts. Without these guys, you cannot tell who is going where and when. So maybe this idea of an all-seeing amreeki aircraft and satellites should be discarded. As we speak, the Predators are operating out of PAF bases.

AFAIK you have no baragining chip to stop the US from doing what it want and where it wants in Pakistan.

How do you know if we even want to stop it?

You try to take down one of their UAVs and the IMF might just decide to block the $4 billion USD that it is considering lending you.

Again read above. If this was a matter of national security, Pakistan would go the route of defaulting. At this point its not.

Mr. Zardari must be aware of this fact and that appears to be why the go-ahead has not been given inpite of your capabilities.

Convergence of interests is the answer here.

 

[Kasrkin]

Regardless of that though, things are messy in the civilian department...media's been really swinging up the Anti-Americanism notch lately. Fact is drone attacks give the Anti-Americanists a lot of credibility and leverage, and keeps our government and army constantly on the defensive and on a back foot on the home front. Therefore they end up spending a lot of precious time and resources fighting needless controversy, that time and effort can be spent much more constructively for the nation (reassuring the people through other matters and therefore indirectly undermining Al-Qaeda further). After Musharraf, American strikes that disregard Pakistani sovereignty give Al-Qaeda a new propaganda life-line; that unfortunately consents with a view many Pakistanis have of the US.

(More than 70% of Pakistani people supported the Taliban as opposed to the US at the time of the post-9/11 invasion of Afghanistan, despite the presence of Al-Qaeda and UN authority)

 

[Nihat]

i think we do this before and we can do it now also

You can but will you . It's common to hear one leader or the other talk about Pakistan Sovereignty and territorial Integrity but the hard fact is that US disregards such integrity and bombs deep inside Pak territory with Impunity , as and when it wishes.

Pakistan borders are probably a joke to them , the fact that nothing is done about them gives more credence to the fact that there is a tacit agreement . If anyone was serious about defending borders then that much talked about Air defense would be put to some use.

 

[blain2]

You can but will you . It's common to hear one leader or the other talk about Pakistan Sovereignty and territorial Integrity but the hard fact is that US disregards such integrity and bombs deep inside Pak territory with Impunity , as and when it wishes.

Pakistan borders are probably a joke to them , the fact that nothing is done about them gives more credence to the fact that there is a tacit agreement . If anyone was serious about defending borders then that much talked about Air defense would be put to some use.

It seems you are the only one still trying to figure out whether there is a deal or not. To most Pakistan watchers, its a known fact that there is a deal. The GoP will not admit to it for obvious reasons but know that its actually helping in some ways.

Nobody is talking about the "much talked about air defence". The capability is there and we know that we can counter the probes and the CAS was straightforward enough to state that. On the issue of US disregard for territorial integrity, what is being debated is whether we can do what the US is doing or not. The answer is yes, and that would help with the overall issue of violation of Terr. integrity by US drones.

 

[slugger]

......This is not a simple game of you find someone and attack them without any repercussions.......

Repercussions there certainly are, but unfortunately for Pakistan these repercussions are being felt within the borders of Pakistan and not on mainland USA who is carrying out these strikes and causing a significant amount of "collateral damage".

If we are to assume that the US flies its UAVs/UCAVs into your NWFP without your knowledge for these attacks [you claim otherwise later], then it appears that the US has faced absolutely no repercussions at all. It continues to fly in and out of the NWFP with absolute impunity and bomb its assumed target.
If reports from the public domain are to be believed, these attacks are accompanied by a significant amount of Collateral Damage.
The fact of the matter is that the US is doing pretty much what it can in your NWFP and is facing absolutely no, taking a word from you, repercussions.
(Please don't tell me that the collapse of Lehmann Brothers and the sub-prime lending crisis in the US was a result of unprovoked attacks on Pakistani soil by US forces using the Predator drone......naaaah!!! not happening buddy)

The relationship has to look beyond that.

Unfortunately for you the US is yet to look beyond it. The first time they started refusing to look beyond it was when they realized that Pakistani personals had leaked News of American Cruise missile attacks in Afghanistan to the Taliban. This attack could have effectively neutralised Osama Bin Laden and fulfilled all American objectives of the time.
Unfortunately the leak from Pakistani side prevented this prevented this from happening and thanks to this the Al-Qaeda chief is still alive and kicking.

As for why America lets Pakistani Armed forces take part its attack missions, the reasons are different

Musharraf regime: - You may clear an area of unwanted elements using Air attacks, but to hold on to the dominance of that area you need the infantry to pound its boots on that area. Unfortunately for the Americans, their foot soldiers are streached thin across the globe. Hence they need to offload some of its duties to willing volunteers. In this case it happens to be the Pakistani armed forces sharing some of the American load.

A Democratically elected government: - + looks bad when it appears that the government elected by the people as no say in the affairs of a region [NWFP] . Such government loses credibility and leaves it vulnerable to a coup from its Armed Forces. The last thing the Amercan government wants is another Dictator heading Pakistan. Appearing to have say in the affairs of a region goes a long way in restoring faith in the minds of people and gaining credibiltiy.

Again read above. If this was a matter of national security, Pakistan would go the route of defaulting.

Naaah!...defaulting is when you have already taken the loan and not paying it back. The situation here is if Pakistan is denied the loan at all in the first place. Defaulting on previous IMF loans - well that is another matter and not of significance as in those cases, you have already received the loans.

Well buddy it is a little easier for you to say Pakistan can do without the loan, since you are in no position of power to take policy decisions which have effects on a National level.
But do take the effort to ask a respected Pakistani economist [not a politician] how much Pakistan needs the loan from the IMF and you would realize the significance of this loan.
In this time of economic recession, Pakistan needs the loan more than any other developing economy in the world

 

[S-2]

"On the issue of US disregard for territorial integrity, what is being debated is whether we can do what the US is doing or not. The answer is yes, and that would help with the overall issue of violation of Terr. integrity by US drones."

Would it make your population and, specifically, your press/media feel better or worse were those hellfires to have Zardari's name on them instead of GWB's? I can see it cutting both ways and don't really know.

 

[ejaz007]

You can but will you . It's common to hear one leader or the other talk about Pakistan Sovereignty and territorial Integrity but the hard fact is that US disregards such integrity and bombs deep inside Pak territory with Impunity , as and when it wishes.

Pakistan borders are probably a joke to them , the fact that nothing is done about them gives more credence to the fact that there is a tacit agreement . If anyone was serious about defending borders then that much talked about Air defense would be put to some use.

Pakistani border are joke for no body. Let me make this clear to every one especially you that what ever is happening is a result of carefully chalked out strategy what should be permitted and what not. Certainly this is the limit allowed to US and not be yond this. GOP for some obvious reasons can't say that they have permitted these raids and US to avoid giving the impression that they are violating the territorial integrity of their most valued ally are publicaly stating that whatever is happening is with the consent of Pakistanis.

Remember Americans never give the impression that they are violating international treaties or norms by doing some thing. Even in Iraq they say that they have come to liberate the people of Iraq.

There have been un recorded events when US forces were challenged by FC and according to some sources even US casualties but these events were kept away from public for certain reasons. Not every thing comes to light a lot happens behind the scene.

If Pakistans borders were a joke then Indians would have reached Lahore Jimkhana by now.

 

[ejaz007]

Pakistan Parliament To Discuss U.S. Strikes
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 25 Nov 13:07 EST (18:07 GMT)

KARACHI - Pakistan's parliament will hold a session next week to talk about United States missile attacks on militant targets in the northwest of the country, defense minister Ahmed Mukhtar said Nov. 25.

Washington has apparently stepped up missile strikes from unmanned drones against suspected Al-Qaeda and Taliban hideouts in tribal areas despite protests from Islamabad that such action violates international law and could deepen resentment of the U.S. in the world's second-largest Islamic nation.

"We have summoned a session of the parliament on December 2 in which we'll discuss the violations (by the U.S. drones) of Pakistan's territory, which is an important issue," Mukhtar told reporters at the country's international defence exhibition in the port city of Karachi.

"With the opposition we'll devise a joint strategy to tackle the issue.

Pakistan's security is much (more) important than any other thing," Mukhtar said.

There have been over 20 U.S. missile attacks over the past few months against militant targets in the rugged tribal territory bordering Afghanistan.

Pakistan has officially protested to the United States that the strikes violate its sovereign territory, although some officials say there was a tacit understanding between the two militaries to allow such action.

The most recent missile attack by a U.S. jet, on Nov. 22, killed the alleged Al-Qaeda mastermind of a 2006 transatlantic airplane bombing plot Rashid Rauf as well as an Egyptian Al-Qaeda operative, security officials said.

That attack came despite a warning by Taliban militants based in tribal territory that there would be reprisal attacks across Pakistan if there were more strikes by the U.S.

Terror network chief Osama bin Laden is widely believed to be hiding in the tribal territory, although there is no clear information about his whereabouts.

Mukhtar told reporters that Al-Qaeda was "the greatest danger for all of us" and that Pakistan was "paying a huge price while fighting the war against terrorism."

"At least 1,200 of our security personnel and more than 4,500 civilians have died in the war against terrorism (in Pakistan's troubled northwest),"

Pakistan Parliament To Discuss U.S. Strikes - Defense News

 

[fatman17]

I certainly hope not, but it is more likely than not to irk the government atleast at some level given how insecure they are in this particular matter. I don't understand two things about this whole affair:

1) Can't we just tell the Americans to give us the damn predators and some Hellfires and tell us where to shoot? Hey American personal can even fly the damn things as long as people think it’s under the aegis of the Pakistan Air Force and seen operating from Pakistani territory (They leased us predators before after all). If they don’t trust us then, this war is pretty pointless anyway...And we should tell them that.

2) Why do we have to lie to our own people? I mean I'm the first one to tell you that our people are kinda self destructive but...lying is just going to worsen things and keep them distracted from uniting against the terrorists.

this is only good in movies. ground realities are different. we know as blain2 said "convergence of interests". any person with some common sense would know that.

 

[fatman17]

the commonly-shared interests, that'll be seen and absorbed as a portion of the newly emerging narrative.

I hope so anyway.

dare i say we know so!

 

[fatman17]

^^^Man i just enjoy our indian colleagues!

 

[slugger]

Pakistani border are joke for no body.

Facts on the ground don't quite support your claims - Terrorists are launching attacks on NATO troops stationed in Afghanistan and then retreating back to their NWFP stronghold in Pakistan.

When it comes to Pakistan's territorial demarcation, these terrorist elements have made a joke and a complete mockery of it by travelling to and fro between Pakistan and Afghanistan without possesing valid papers to do so.

Ejazbhai 1 question - what will Pakistan do if the american decide to use their B-52/B-2s to carpet bomb your NWFP and eliminate all presence of terrorist elements from there, even if it is accompanied by collosal collatreal damage for Pakistan.
Pakistan has absolutely no offensive capabiltiy to launch a retaliatory attack against the USA

Your American-made block-15 F-16s or JF-17s are no match for the USAF F-15/18 E/F and have absolutely no capability of reaching American mainland

You launch a severe protest against the US in the UN - US is a veto power country and is not affected by any sanctions

Ejazbhai, please tell me 1 Pakistani retaliation that would hurt the Amercians

The fact is that that, and I appear to be repeating it over and over here, it is simple American Goodwill and outsourcing of killing that makes the Pakistani Armed forces get involved in America's attacks on Pakistan's sovereign territory

Let me make this clear to every one especially you that what ever is happening is a result of carefully chalked out strategy what should be permitted and what not.

For the sake of a discussion, I am even willing to overlook the fact that what you are saying is pure conjecture.

Are you then trying to tell the world that the Pakistani government is actually approving these apparently unsanctioned attacks on it Pakistani territory by US UAVs and then after the attacks have taken place Pakistan cries foul about America violating its Airspace.

If that is the case - you just accused the Pakistani Governemtn of being complicit in the murder of innocent Pakistani civillians

I am not sure about your country, but in most civilised country, you would have been held for charges of treason for making such a statement

These innocent Pakistani civilians merely happened to be present at the time of the attacks on the actual targets and fell prey to the Hellfires because your Governement allowed the US to use UAVs to target terrorists even when it knew innocent citizens were present in the vicinity and are surely going to be harmed when such air-borne attack is going to be launched.

 

[TOPGUN]

^^^Man i just enjoy our indian colleagues!

We do enjoy them dont we fatman17 hahaha