Opinions on MMU & Hürjet Fighter/Trainer Projects

[dr.knowhow]

But as you explained IMO perfectly the mismatches considering the MMU's timeline and still open questions, here it is the same: Turkish media reports so much, accepts no critical questions nor does they give explanations, but nothing fits together.

As such all we can do is sit and wait.

Yes it is quite peculiar. What's even weirder is that those news outlets that I look out for aren't some bunch of nobodies. They are a well known media entities who could go and interview officials of various established defence companies or government agencies like SSB. And even those media write an article which contains a contradicting information within that one article.

Same could be seen on articles of Indian media on AMCA or MMRCA and bunch of other project of theirs.

Guess it shows the lack of transperency these kind of countries have in regards to government projects.

 

[Turcici Imperium]

This is how a prototype of an advanced fighter aircraft should look like at the moment when you want to aim for a maiden flight in early 2022.

Turkish Republic doesn't have any advanced fighter jet project that would make it's maiden flight in early 2022.

Also, you should be a good example to the people, you have a title of int. moderator. Come on. It could be appreciable for you to move some of the opinion/discussion comments from that thread to here so that thread wouldn't be buried in nonsense.

Since we don't have any moderation here and you have moderation powers, it could be nice if you act like interim-moderator until @WebMaster finds one.

 

[Deino]

Turkish Republic doesn't have any advanced fighter jet project that would make it's maiden flight in early 2022.

Also, you should be a good example to the people, you have a title of int. moderator. Come on. It could be appreciable for you to move some of the opinion/discussion comments from that thread to here so that thread wouldn't be buried in nonsense.

Since we don't have any moderation here and you have moderation powers, it could be nice if you act like interim-moderator until @WebMaster finds one.

I beg your pardon: First it is NOT-nonsense to post such comments since these are facts and not opinions even more since NONE of the concerns raised above by several other members have been answered.

Also - at least based on your own claims, metal cutting for the MMU has allegedly started,maiden flight of the Hürjet (and I would indeed rate it an advanced jet) as per your own post, maiden flight is aimed for late 2022 and yet we haven't seen anything nor have confirmation on the chosen engine...

And finally; I'm indeed a moderator, but I'm restricted to moderate only in the Chinese section.

 

[Turcici Imperium]

First it is NOT-nonsense to post such comments since these are facts and not opinions

Oh i thought you were talking about MMU, when you said "advanced fighter should look like this if it's to make it's maiden flight in early 2022", because if you meant MMU then it's not fact; it's just your opinion and an inaccurate one; MMU meant to make it's first flight in 2026, but then it's date has been moved back to 2025, and that's the date we have.

If you weren't talking about MMU, then your post was off-topic.

maiden flight of the Hürjet (and I would indeed rate it an advanced jet)

Let's not play with words. You have a title of int. moderator, you gotta act more responsible than that. You have claimed "advanced fighter jet" and Hürjet by no means is an advanced fighter jet. You cannot really equalize advanced trainer jet to an advanced fighter jet. Hürjet would have a light fighter jet version in future, if airforce demands it.

early 2022 is not equal to end of 2022 neither. Please, even if an int. moderator acts like this, then there is no hope for this forum. Just move forward with a bit more mature behaviour.

 

[FuturePAF]

Has the PAF expressed interest in the Hurjet? it seems like the kind of Jet Pakistan should consider for a number of reasons.

Hurjet, even though it is an advanced jet trainer, with the use of podded sensors, it could allow the PAF access to plethora of Turkish weapons systems without having to figure out how to integrate Turkish weapons into Chinese/Pakistani radars and avionics.

Perhaps, with the use radar datalinks from other PAF jets, a Hurjet could field a long range Turkish BVR missiles (considering Turkey will have to develop something to counter Greek Rafales and F-35s) and opening up more options for PAF strategy.

Also, if PAF signs a large enough deal it could justify the expense of doing a ToT and license build in Pakistan, transferring fabrication technology that could help improve the JF-17 and future Project AZM.

There is a version being developed with the EJ-200 engine, which could be a boost for PAF experience with an advanced European engine, it it chooses to license build a future engine for the JF-17.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Has the PAF expressed interest in the Hurjet? it seems like the kind of Jet Pakistan should consider for a number of reasons.

Hurjet, even though it is an advanced jet trainer, with the use of podded sensors, it could allow the PAF access to plethora of Turkish weapons systems without having to figure out how to integrate Turkish weapons into Chinese/Pakistani radars and avionics.

Perhaps, with the use radar datalinks from other PAF jets, a Hurjet could field a long range Turkish BVR missiles (considering Turkey will have to develop something to counter Greek Rafales and F-35s) and opening up more options for PAF strategy.

Also, if PAF signs a large enough deal it could justify the expense of doing a ToT and license build in Pakistan, transferring fabrication technology that could help improve the JF-17 and future Project AZM.

There is a version being developed with the EJ-200 engine, which could be a boost for PAF experience with an advanced European engine, it it chooses to license build a future engine for the JF-17.

They've opted to use the JF-17B as the LIFT.

However, the Hurjet is a ways out, and unless the PAF was interested in co-funding its development it would not say anything until the aircraft flies. Once it flies, I'm sure the PAF will test it and possibly consider it as a dedicated LIFT (while transitioning the JF-17B to full-time OCU). We did look at dedicated LIFT options before (even with JF-17B in the pipeline).

That aside, the Hurjet would be a cool DACT aircraft.

But I don't think our orders would be large enough to support in-house manufacturing. Even if we set-up two dedicated LIFT or FCU squadrons, a dedicated aerobatics unit, and a separate DACT unit, we'll top at 40-50 aircraft.

The only way I can see it break into the 100+ range is if the PAF decides to use them as a frontline asset, e.g., close air support (CAS) and light ground attack. CAS could be interesting. The design reminds a little of the Jaguar, and the Turks are developing their own equivalents to the SDB, air-to-ground missiles, etc. So it looks promising.

However, a modern CAS push requires serious land-and-air integration between the PA and PAF, and for the PAF to get 100-150 of these, the PA has to really champion (and help pay for) it. Unlikely, unfortunately.

 

[FuturePAF]

They've opted to use the JF-17B as the LIFT.

However, the Hurjet is a ways out, and unless the PAF was interested in co-funding its development it would not say anything until the aircraft flies. Once it flies, I'm sure the PAF will test it and possibly consider it as a dedicated LIFT (while transitioning the JF-17B to full-time OCU). We did look at dedicated LIFT options before (even with JF-17B in the pipeline).

That aside, the Hurjet would be a cool DACT aircraft.

But I don't think our orders would be large enough to support in-house manufacturing. Even if we set-up two dedicated LIFT or FCU squadrons, a dedicated aerobatics unit, and a separate DACT unit, we'll top at 40-50 aircraft.

The only way I can see it break into the 100+ range is if the PAF decides to use them as a frontline asset, e.g., close air support (CAS) and light ground attack. CAS could be interesting. The design reminds a little of the Jaguar, and the Turks are developing their own equivalents to the SDB, air-to-ground missiles, etc. So it looks promising.

View attachment 748917

However, a modern CAS push requires serious land-and-air integration between the PA and PAF, and for the PAF to get 100-150 of these, the PA has to really champion (and help pay for) it. Unlikely, unfortunately.

Solid points, economies of scale have to be there to garner enough interest for the kind of modifications we would require. Which is why focusing on the JF-17 at those numbers makes more sense.

Perhaps building the JF-17B into the LIFT we need isn’t a bad alternative, especially as an offering for foreign LIFT competitions.

Perhaps there are other projects Turkey can do with Pakistan to transfer engine technology.

What I was hoping the PAF got through the acquisition, besides engine technology, was Turkish munitions that can easily be integrated into our fleet. Is there anyway the Turkish BVR and WVR missiles can be integrated into the JF-17 without sharing codes between China (radar/avionics) and Turkey(munitions)? Could we do it ourselves, or at least develop a way to build our own key sub-systems which can be added (or replace a component) to the Turkish weapons to make the integration seamless?

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

All engine projects of Turkey except Kale are in TEI. As a company, they are very rich due to the orders they receive compared to their other brothers, so I do not think that they will ever approach technology transfer, especially in manufacturing technologies. They even refused to export the PD170. According to their own discourse, they even make the optimum production of parts for GE, provided that they receive 70% of the orders. Maybe it's the Kale group, but all it does is an engine for cruise missiles, and I don't think it's worth the effort.

I don't think Pakistani authorities will try for such an industry in Pakistan because it is a very expensive investment. If I were you, I would try to become a partner of Ivchenko Progress.

By the way, Hurjet is a really ridiculous idea for Pakistan, why should they buy Hurjet when they have JF17B.

 

[Successwill]

Turcici, leave it, let it go. Why bother trying to revive a dead forum, occupied by filthy chinese and bootlicker german.

 

[Falcon26]

Solid points, economies of scale have to be there to garner enough interest for the kind of modifications we would require. Which is why focusing on the JF-17 at those numbers makes more sense.

Perhaps building the JF-17B into the LIFT we need isn’t a bad alternative, especially as an offering for foreign LIFT competitions.

Perhaps there are other projects Turkey can do with Pakistan to transfer engine technology.

What I was hoping the PAF got through the acquisition, besides engine technology, was Turkish munitions that can easily be integrated into our fleet. Is there anyway the Turkish BVR and WVR missiles can be integrated into the JF-17 without sharing codes between China (radar/avionics) and Turkey(munitions)? Could we do it ourselves, or at least develop a way to build our own key sub-systems which can be added (or replace a component) to the Turkish weapons to make the integration seamless?

Solid points, economies of scale have to be there to garner enough interest for the kind of modifications we would require. Which is why focusing on the JF-17 at those numbers makes more sense.

Perhaps building the JF-17B into the LIFT we need isn’t a bad alternative, especially as an offering for foreign LIFT competitions.

Perhaps there are other projects Turkey can do with Pakistan to transfer engine technology.

What I was hoping the PAF got through the acquisition, besides engine technology, was Turkish munitions that can easily be integrated into our fleet. Is there anyway the Turkish BVR and WVR missiles can be integrated into the JF-17 without sharing codes between China (radar/avionics) and Turkey(munitions)? Could we do it ourselves, or at least develop a way to build our own key sub-systems which can be added (or replace a component) to the Turkish weapons to make the integration seamless?

The thing is Pakistan’s culture (both military and civilian) isn’t geared towards risk taking which is at the core of innovation and research and development. The entire Pakistani economy is consumption driven, hence the recurring current account deficit crises pakistan finds itself.

The truth is Turkey has a lot of projects Pakistan can jump on and benefit immensely, from engine, space technology, BVR and WVR missiles, electronics, trains, electric cars and plethora of other technology. Pakistan is able to find 12+ billion dollars every year to fund defunct state owned enterprises such as the crash prone PIA, the 1920s style Pakistan Railways and the dormant Pakistan steel Mills, and billions more for unjustified subsidies. But can’t find $200-million each year to piggyback on Turkey and China on critical cutting edge technology.

Pakistan will continue to be on this path because there’s no compulsion to change. This is true for both the military and the civilians. But the cost of status quo will continue to grow exponentially each year and by the time Pakistan figures out what’s wrong, it will be too late.

 

[FuturePAF]

Simulators are used by all air forces; is the US really doing something innovative in its new approach? And if so, should it be adopted by the PAF if it isn’t doing something similar already?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Simulators are used by all air forces; is the US really doing something innovative in its new approach? And if so, should it be adopted by the PAF if it is t doing something similar already?

The PAF was doing this -- and literally promoting it -- with the JF-17. However, potential buyers had asked for a dual-seater, and the PAF wanted a LIFT, and we got JF-17B.

 

[FuturePAF]

The PAF was doing this -- and literally promoting it -- with the JF-17. However, potential buyers had asked for a dual-seater, and the PAF wanted a LIFT, and we got JF-17B.

Does the PAF have a requirement for a Hurkus type platform or is it satisfied with the Mushak, Super Mushak and K-8?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Does the PAF have a requirement for a Hurkus type platform or is it satisfied with the Mushak, Super Mushak and K-8?

The PAF had spoken to TAI about the Hurkus, but in relation to replacing the T-37s. However, it doesn't seem like the PAF moved on that issue as of late. It's probably not a priority until the fighter fleet is set.

 

[LegionnairE]

We need partners. Tupolev is a great candidate. If they take part in this project, it would be good for marketing too.