Once Rafales come, Pakistan won’t come near LoC or border: IAF chief ACM BS

[The Eagle]

As for (2), there was no corruption in the Rafale GTG. That's why it's a GTG. To date, in every single Indian defence deal in history, there has not been a single case of corruption in any GTG process. All corruption cases have been in tenders. The reason is GTG deals are conducted between the two highest offices of two countries. There are no middlemen involved in such a deal. Hence no Ottavio Quattrocchi or Christian Michel to push kickbacks.

That's the primary reason why Modi has entirely favoured GTG, and has now even introduced GTG in the tender process, where the tender is withdrawn after its completion and the final deal is signed between two govts.

There was corruption and that's the thing. GTG or ABC but in the end, Modi being head state, directly involved held responsible. Documents claimed to be stolen but then, AG took back statement but somehow, it is established that there is truth whatever reached the Court.

What he said, and what Tipnis said, is entirely for the domestic audience. If you recall, our story is our Mig-21 shot down a PAF F-16, which was in turn shot down while it was trying to run away, and the MKIs totally dominated the fight, even including dodging multiple AMRAAM shots.

You are not even ready to help yourself and stop posting this copy paste statement again & again. IAF claimed that Abhinandan wasn't able to hear GC call to take left and you are here with a story which is not even known to IAF GC room. We shot MIG-21 wreckage & Abhinandan available. Where is F-16? share the proof from your digital signature, Data reading etc but wait; Abhi went totally blank over comms right? A typical bollywood ajay devgan style shoot out by Mig....

What the ACM said isn't for Pakistanis. It's entirely to create a narrative in favour of the Rafale. You can assume all of this is a lie, I am not here to tell you your narrative is wrong, I find that irrelevant. I'm just pointing out that the ACM is addressing the Indian audience based on our story. So it should be seen within that context.

Keep the story away from here then rather used as repetitive excuse. Why IAF Chief has to address nation in such manners? that exactly tells as how bad the damage was....

Has the DG ISPR revealed the identify of the other two Indian pilots who were captured?

Did you read & go through the link I provided? If they are not Indians then you shouldn't be worried asking questions as such. For the time being, MI-17 fratricide has made it to the public so, wait and watch Indian side as how they come up with next story. A piece of exploded AMRAAM 120-C5 wasn't found without any reason, though.

 

[randomradio]

There was corruption and that's the thing. GTG or ABC but in the end, Modi being head state, directly involved held responsible. Documents claimed to be stolen but then, AG took back statement but somehow, it is established that there is truth whatever reached the Court.

The Supreme Court quashed all the Rafale petitions. The simple fact is corruption in a GTG deal is IMPOSSIBLE, yep, in capital letters.

What you are trying to say is the President of France bribed the Prime Minister of India because Dassault signed a deal with Reliance that was many years older than before Modi came to office. Do you see how ridiculous this sounds?

The Dassault-Reliance deal for offsets goes back to 2010, under Mukesh Ambani. If you can recall, Dassault wanted Reliance to build Rafales since 2012 instead of HAL, when Rafale was shortlisted. That's because Dassault was setting up a factory for Falcons in India and they wanted the same facility to produce Rafales also. Now Dassault is doing the same with Anil Ambani through DRAL.

Even if Rafales were not chosen, Dassault had already planned long ago that they will build Falcons in India to tap the multimillionaires' market for business jets. And that was the only major deal Dassault had signed with the Ambanis. The facility is now producing Falcons. By 2022, we will see the first fully Indian assembled Falcon out of that line.

All this talk of corruption is idiocy.

You are not even ready to help yourself and stop posting this copy paste statement again & again. IAF claimed that Abhinandan wasn't able to hear GC call to take left and you are here with a story which is not even known to IAF GC room. We shot MIG-21 wreckage & Abhinandan available. Where is F-16? share the proof from your digital signature, Data reading etc but wait; Abhi went totally blank over comms right? A typical bollywood ajay devgan style shoot out by Mig....

I told you, you can stick to your story and we will stick to ours.

The CAS is talking based on our story. This much should be obvious.

Keep the story away from here then rather used as repetitive excuse. Why IAF Chief has to address nation in such manners? that exactly tells as how bad the damage was....

Then his story would be further reinforced had he mentioned how much damage was actually done. No one will question the decision for more Rafales if 10 MKIs or even 1 MKI was shot down and IAF Chief was running around saying more Rafales are needed.

India has no need to hide losses. Even this Mi-17 story is being revealed by India itself. There is no need to cover it up after all. We have little interest in winning a propaganda war. All we are concerned about is changing the actual ground situation.

Let your professionals deal with the actual ground situation. Some of your people here may already know the actual story.

The Rafales are not the problem, IAF is. It will take a great product and make it absolutely useless, MKI and M2K are just the latest examples.

Don't worry about how IAF uses the Rafale. You should be more worried about the Rafales being supplied to UAE from an Indian line though.

 

[Khafee]

Don't worry about how IAF uses the Rafale. You should be more worried about the Rafales being supplied to UAE from an Indian line though.

Cow mutar giving you delusions AGAIN?

 

[Dushyant]

The Supreme Court quashed all the Rafale petitions. The simple fact is corruption in a GTG deal is IMPOSSIBLE, yep, in capital letters.

IAF uses the Rafale. You should be more worried about the Rafales being supplied to UAE from an Indian line though.

what ? Corruption in GTG is impossible ? Really ? Arent all purchases from Russia GTG? And how is corruption in GTG is impossible? I am keen to learn , sounds like an opportunity to make a few bucks here and there.

 

[randomradio]

what ? Corruption in GTG is impossible ? Really ? Arent all purchases from Russia GTG? And how is corruption in GTG is impossible? I am keen to learn , sounds like an opportunity to make a few bucks here and there.

Corruption is done by middlemen, which only happens in tenders. In GTG, the Indian MoD is directly dealing with the OEM's govt, so there is quite literally no scope for corruption.

Yes, all Russian deals today are GTG. But it's been clean since 2000, since RoE was set up. There was a lot of corruption in the 90s, when deals happened with individuals rather than govts, particularly among non-Russian states, like those old Czech guns. These were not GTG though.

Corruption is possible at very small levels though, like the case with BEML trying to push faulty trucks onto the IA. But this won't involve national leaders, and is more of a systemic problem.

Corruption is more frequent with non-critical systems where this is little to no media exposure. Corruption in something as big as Rafale, Apache or S-400 is impossible. People will get caught easily.

 

[The Eagle]

India has no need to hide losses. Even this Mi-17 story is being revealed by India itself. There is no need to cover it up after all. We have little interest in winning a propaganda war. All we are concerned about is changing the actual ground situation.

There is no other way to deal with situation for India. You can come and write many paragraphs to diver further but there are things known to few and most of Indian claims are already debunked. How convineint to say that there is no need for India to cover it yet, no truth has been shared till date. India has all the interest in propaganda war and don't forget what Bipin said months ago about propaganda warfare against Pakistan. However, Indian Army then has to rework and announce fresh strategy, just recently in same domain of propaganda warfare.

The Dassault-Reliance deal for offsets goes back to 2010, under Mukesh Ambani. If you can recall, Dassault wanted Reliance to build Rafales since 2012 instead of HAL, when Rafale was shortlisted.

A good twist. Instead, it was Ambani introduced by Modi to Dassault. Thank you but we read without influence of Modi.

What you are trying to say is the President of France bribed the Prime Minister of India because Dassault signed a deal with Reliance that was many years older than before Modi came to office. Do you see how ridiculous this sounds?

president doesn't need to bribe Modi. Case is in the Court and it is your concern to deal with it. You are not looking at the bottom line instead replying for the sake of reply. I wish Modi may sign more deals in similar fashion.

Let your professionals deal with the actual ground situation. Some of your people here may already know the actual story.

Hence, the remarks my dear. Did you ask any of CO from Budgam to trust you and tell that where does that piece of AMRAAM being found? (Seems like you are professional and know all). Chasssan Village, Riasi District? While there was surely no wreckage at the site where piece of AMRAAM 120-C5 was found. Let me give you another line to search. The police officer who received a call about the piece of AMRAAM 120C-5, stated that one person was injured due to 120-C5 piece but before that, they heard an explosion. The key words are a person injured of AMRAAM? Imagine where is the rest of missile? why the explosion first and then a man (civilian) on the ground was injured due to falling piece?

So let the professional invent stories and try not to create more by yourself.

 

[Dushyant]

Corruption is done by middlemen, which only happens in tenders. In GTG, the Indian MoD is directly dealing with the OEM's govt, so there is quite literally no scope for corruption.

Yes, all Russian deals today are GTG. But it's been clean since 2000, since RoE was set up. There was a lot of corruption in the 90s, when deals happened with individuals rather than govts, particularly among non-Russian states, like those old Czech guns. These were not GTG though.

Corruption is possible at very small levels though, like the case with BEML trying to push faulty trucks onto the IA. But this won't involve national leaders, and is more of a systemic problem.

Corruption is more frequent with non-critical systems where this is little to no media exposure. Corruption in something as big as Rafale, Apache or S-400 is impossible. People will get caught easily.

What ? This is absolutely bonkers , i don't know where to begin to reply or not. According to you GTG is tender free, its a deal agreed by two govt! How do you know its best possible lowest price if you don't invite tenders? How stupid is this getting down to!

Dude i dunno what kinda expert you are , or claim to be , i hv been there and done that. Not like my pops was a brig , i myself served . from a bandage to fuel to rocket ship , nothing goes down in India without corruption , no matter who is in govt

 

[randomradio]

There is no other way to deal with situation for India. You can come and write many paragraphs to diver further but there are things known to few and most of Indian claims are already debunked. How convineint to say that there is no need for India to cover it yet, no truth has been shared till date. India has all the interest in propaganda war and don't forget what Bipin said months ago about propaganda warfare against Pakistan. However, Indian Army then has to rework and announce fresh strategy, just recently in same domain of propaganda warfare.

Shall we go back to discussing the Rafale? I have no interest in chasing after the wind.

A good twist. Instead, it was Ambani introduced by Modi to Dassault. Thank you but we read without influence of Modi.

Modi and Dassault have nothing to do with each other. If Modi was involved, then Dassault would have been in Gujarat, not Maharashtra. You are giving Modi and the Ambanis too much credit.

Dassault's total deal size with Reliance is just 800 Crores.

president doesn't need to bribe Modi. Case is in the Court and it is your concern to deal with it. You are not looking at the bottom line instead replying for the sake of reply. I wish Modi may sign more deals in similar fashion.

There's no case in court. All they have is a petition which calls for a review of the clean chit the SC gave to Modi, which is pretty normal. It will get quashed again.

Imagine where is the rest of missile? why the explosion first and then a man (civilian) on the ground was injured due to falling piece?

The entire missile has been recovered. What was shown to the world was the serial number, which is more than enough. As for the explosion, an AMRAAM self-destructs once it runs out of fuel. And high speed missile debris hitting the ground is going to be very noisy. Even a car accident is noisy, how much noise do you think something doing mach 3 is going to make when it hits the ground?

 

[Dushyant]

Corruption is possible at very small levels though, like the case with BEML trying to push faulty trucks onto the IA. But this won't involve national leaders, and is more of a systemic problem.

Corruption is more frequent with non-critical systems where this is little to no media exposure. Corruption in something as big as Rafale, Apache or S-400 is impossible. People will get caught easily.

How about favouring a company on technical parameters in RFI itself?? last iaf chief went to jail for it, i don't understand when iaf qualified both rafael and eurofighter typhon , and eurofigheter offered 20% discount , why wasnt it considered ? Because deal was alreasybstruck between reliance and default, for tie up. bow how could eurofighter come in despite qualifying on iaf criteria

The entire missile has been recovered. What was shown to the world was the serial number, which is more than enough. As for the explosion, an AMRAAM self-destructs once it runs out of fuel. And high speed missile debris hitting the ground is going to be very noisy. Even a car accident is noisy, how much noise do you think something doing mach 3 is going to make when it hits the ground?

That is not true! Most AAm wont detonate until their fuse is triggered , which triggered either by radar guidance / IR guidance/ proximity alarm/ megnatic impact

 

[The Eagle]

Shall we go back to discussing the Rafale? I have no interest in chasing after the wind.

No,... That is the headache for Modi voters to discuss not to derail the topic in hand.

The entire missile has been recovered.

False.... No weight to believe you. These are now more of the unsubstantiated claims. Sorry to say but a whole new set for the laugh. If you have to waste time with such kind of theory, I am not interested. Come back with that theory when you have the proof similar like you have been asking from Pakistan. Why the double standards now? Indian official stance is the use of AMRAAM which has now down from the claim of shooting down an F-16. I can understand that it is hard to keep track of ever changing stories from Indian side.

What was shown to the world was the serial number, which is more than enough.

Exploded AMRAAM is more than enough to prove and that is what I said.

an AMRAAM self-destructs once it runs out of fuel.

Do you know that about AMRAAM 120-C5? and its self destruction theory at all? What are circumstances and parameters that 120-C5 explodes like this, I mean the way, that single peace has been shown.

And high speed missile debris hitting the ground is going to be very noisy.

Explosion was heard in the sky prior to injury of the man on the ground. Seems like you aren't reading in detail rather interested to derail & troll like this.

Even a car accident is noisy, how much noise do you think something doing mach 3 is going to make when it hits the ground?

It was an AMRAAM following the prey not some high speed Marutti.

 

[Dushyant]

No amount of metal is going to make sound that can sound like chemical explosive on hitting dirt at whatever speed. metal pounding ground at 4 mach can be best heard at 300 mtrs , chemical explosive make it to double digit kilometers. I am certified NVH engineer from ARAI ,professional engineer for 10 years and served 3 years in Indian army .

 

[randomradio]

What ? This is absolutely bonkers , i don't know where to begin to reply or not. According to you GTG is tender free, its a deal agreed by two govt! How do you know its best possible lowest price if you don't invite tenders? How stupid is this getting down to!

GTG deals have limited cost negotiations. That's why MoD prefers tender, but goes for GTG only as a last resort. Another reason for going for GTG is for strategic systems.

Yes, there is corruption, but not between two heads of states. GTG with Russia and US are the cleanest. What happens after is more related to systemic corruption within the system. I, as the local manufacturer, can always switch out good quality stuff, sell it in the black market, give you, the army chief, poor quality stuff along with a bribe. But this has nothing to do with making the initial choice of the product itself. Basically, there is no political risk to these deals from the leadership's PoV. But if the services are corrupt, that's obviously a whole different story. But this again doesn't threaten leadership.

You won't find corruption in Rafale, S-400, Apache etc. But you will find corruption in Pilatus deal, Agustawestland helicopter deal. Maybe even the Hawk deal, if someone digs deep enough.

 

[Dushyant]

[QUOTE="randomradio, post: 11324290, member: 1750That's why MoD prefers tender, but goes for GTG only as a last resort.
Another reason for going for GTG is for strategic systems.

Yes, there is corruption, but not between two heads of states. GTG with Russia and US are the cleanest. What happens after is more related to systemic corruption within the system. I, as the local manufacturer, can always switch out good quality stuff, sell it in the black market, give you, the army chief, poor quality stuff along with a bribe. But this has nothing to do with making the initial choice of the product itself. Basically, there is no political risk to these deals from the leadership's PoV. But if the services are corrupt, that's obviously a whole different story. But this again doesn't threaten leadership.

You won't find corruption in Rafale, S-400, Apache etc. But you will find corruption in Pilatus deal, Agustawestland helicopter deal. Maybe even the Hawk deal, if someone digs deep enough.[/QUOTE]



What is the SOP for going to GTG deal? How does it qualify for last resort? Who decides its last resort? What is the definition of last resort? Who certifies that this was indeed last resort?

Another reason for going for get is strategic systems- look i am trying hard to control my laughter and be serious. Wft is stregic systems ? Which systems are non stregic systems? Who decides who makes the definition?
Get with Russia and USA are cleanest!- ****! this this dude just became an auditor. He proclaimed the deals cleanest ! I dunno if can can recite 17 ka table lol. But seriously guys i am sorry on his behalf. this is not India , we a smarter. I mean some of us when not drunk , like i am now, wth its time and whiskey is good .

 

[randomradio]

How about favouring a company on technical parameters in RFI itself??

This would qualify as a political deal. This is not corruption. This is practised the world over. The most recent one being Belgium asking for a fighter jet that has only a single seat version, in order to favour the F-35.

Corruption is when money was involved in making changes to the RFP, not operational requirements. Making changes based on operational requirements is highly desirable for obvious reasons. Can't just get stuck with lemons because we can't set up requirements correctly.

last iaf chief went to jail for it,

He was arrested because money was involved.

i don't understand when iaf qualified both rafael and eurofighter typhon , and eurofigheter offered 20% discount , why wasnt it considered ? Because deal was alreasybstruck between reliance and default, for tie up. bow how could eurofighter come in despite qualifying on iaf criteria

Simple reason. The process kicked out EADS from contention, so there was no going back in again. If they could offer 20% discount, they should have done it before bids were opened, not after.

What's the point of having a tender if anyone is allowed to lower their bids and jump back in again? Why make a mockery of your own process?

That is not true! Most AAm wont detonate until their fuse is triggered , which triggered either by radar guidance / IR guidance/ proximity alarm/ megnatic impact

All AAMs self-destruct. Including the AMRAAM.

http://tass.com/defense/1016496
According to the Estonian Defense Forces, the incident with the accidental launch of an AMRAAM-type air-to-air missile occurred at 3:44 p.m. Moscow time on August 7 in a practice area over the community of Pangodi.

As the Estonian Defense Forces said, the missile’s self-destruct mode was activated to destroy it while it was still in the air. However, despite this, the missile could have still fallen on the ground 40 km north of Tartu.

Why would you give your enemy a fully intact missile anyway?

Even the Brahmos's MTCR restriction makes it self-destruct when it hits the max allowable range. (We have tinkered with it, that's a different story.)

Explosion was heard in the sky prior to injury of the man on the ground. Seems like you aren't reading in detail rather interested to derail & troll like this.

When a missile self-destructs, it happens in the sky.

No,... That is the headache for Modi voters to discuss not to derail the topic in hand.

False.... No weight to believe you. These are now more of the unsubstantiated claims. Sorry to say but a whole new set for the laugh. If you have to waste time with such kind of theory, I am not interested. Come back with that theory when you have the proof similar like you have been asking from Pakistan. Why the double standards now? Indian official stance is the use of AMRAAM which has now down from the claim of shooting down an F-16. I can understand that it is hard to keep track of ever changing stories from Indian side.

Exploded AMRAAM is more than enough to prove and that is what I said.

It was an AMRAAM following the prey not some high speed Marutti.

I have said what I needed to say regarding this subject. I told you our side of the story. Everything else is kite-flying. Just a big circular game of claims and counterclaims, there will be no end to it.

 

[The Eagle]

When a missile self-destructs, it happens in the sky.

This is about AMRAAM 120-C5 self destruct details. "A Missile" is generalization.

So I repeat a complete missile claim by you is not supported nor proved at all. There is no logic to show only serial number piece. In fact there is nothing with IAF to share.

AMRAAM 120-C5 piece was recovered when it exploded in the air. A piece injured a man on the ground? Indian Claim. There is no theory or any story that complete missile fell down based upon Indian claims.