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Then what was the purpose of sending another Aircraft Carrier? Old man i know you guys were assuming US was gonna launch an initial attack which so far has not even occurred because we know very well the US does not want a war with China. The whole military display from the US is a joke.
More like your China do not want a war at all. The point of sending another fleet is to show your China that we have COMPLETE freedom while your China is shackled. If we attack NKR's nuclear weapons development and associated launch facilities and China does nothing, you lose.
 
No, Duterte asked the US to leave because he prefers Russia and China over the US. The US was in the Philippines a long time after the Soviet war. That is common knowledge.
Who is talking about Duerte?
He wasn't even a politician in the 90s, I was talking about U. S military withdrawal in the Philippines at the request of the Philippines government back then. Go read about it.

Plus, yes Kim dynasty regime does serves U. S interests in the region. I'm surprised you don't see that.

The US can never have a military dominance in East Asia. At best, it can have military bases.
They have been the dominant military power in East Asia since WWII to this day, it's common knowledge.
 
More like your China do not want a war at all. The point of sending another fleet is to show your China that we have COMPLETE freedom while your China is shackled. If we attack NKR's nuclear weapons development and associated launch facilities and China does nothing, you lose.
:laughcry: Old Man you saying China begging US not to launch an attack after sending some fleet? Unfortunately nobody is buying that Hollywood script. US was trying to scare off Kim but it didn't do much so US decided well lets give more warnings instead not because China is afraid of war it's the US who does not wish to have a war with us. Freedom of Navigation is just same old excuse, don't you get tired of overusing that phrase? Next time just tell Trump to pick up the phone and issue more sanctions instead of performing a costly theatrical sensationalism just to achieve the same thing.

They have been the dominant military power in East Asia since WWII
But will it last forever? :lol: Since you follow up PLA's rapid development you probably can guess the answer yourself.
 
If we attack NKR's nuclear weapons development and associated launch facilities and China does nothing, you lose.

Wow, then you'd better get on that right away! :azn:

But Trump is too busy boasting about how amazing his friendship is with Xi Jinping and how China is being a good and responsible nation regarding the North Korean issue.

I think you need to have a word with your commander-in-chief and tell him to stop sucking up to China, and compromising to China on every single issue from currency manipulation, trade, the Belt and Road initiative, the One China Policy, and literally everything else.
 
Typical excuse from Americans, the US paid little compensation and what is some money worth when those people are dying at young age. Whatever you may think of DPRK, it's at least much better than US. They don't turn people from other parts of the world into lab rat experiments. Even if they test their nukes or missiles it's nothing compared what the US has done to the Pacific Ocean. You can call DPRK a regime but at least DPRK has not been bombing countries for the past decades like the US does. US has too much blood on her hands and that's a fact. You should watch on youtube video the marshall island victims, it will open op your eyes to what your government has done to them.

Ok.
 
You have to excuse people in PDF having this degree of naivety, they only cheer and jeered on someone because they don't like the country that's doing or receiving it, they fail to see the biggest loser of a nuclear North Korea is, indeed China. Why?

Let's look at the US, a nuclear North Korea serve the national interest of US by keeping South Korea close, strategically, the geostrategical situation remain unchanged, just because North Korea process a few nuke will not change the fact that Russia already have 4000 nuke pointing at US, China have 200 +, even if North Korea successfully develop ICBM, the fact remain unchanged, there are always nuke that pointing to the US in that region. A few hundred from yet another country from the SAME REGION as China and Russia does not change the chessboard one bit for the US.

On the other hand, by developing Nuclear Weapon and keeping fat Kim in place, IT WILL ALWAYS GOING TO BE A THREAT TO SOUTH KOREA AND JAPAN. Hence, ROK president and Japanese Prime Minister will go over hands and knees to the US for protection, they will buy whatever US throw at them, they will do whatever US ask them to do, just look at how THAAD deployed, even when the deployment was met with local protest? Do you think if NK does not have a nuke program, would THAAD be going ahead and deployed in South Korea without any hitch?

On the other hand, a nuclear powered North Korea will most certainly gone out of the dependent mentality from China, a nuke is very much a large bargaining power to China, Russia and to some extent India and Pakistan. At this moment, Chinese and tighten their reign on North Korea, because they still depend on China, think about it, if North Korea have nuke, will they be a "loyal servant" of China instead they won't just go take what they want? And if China refused to give way to North Korea, would any Chinese here or in Reality really think the North Korean will NOT POINT THEIR NUKE TOWARD CHINA? They may miss shooting nuke toward United States, but NK won't miss shooting nuke to China, they are neighbours....

When North Korea process nuke, Bargaining power the Chinese currently holding is ALL BUT GONE, then it would be the Chinese who have to give in to North Korea demand, monies, weapons and everything, NK wants it, China will have to give it to them.

If I am POTUS, I will actually trying to help North Korea secretly develop Nuke, that will tip the NK-Chinese relationship over from Chinese holding all the cards to North Korea holding all the cards. For the US, it won't change anything. There are 4200+ nuke pointing at the US at that general direction, what's a few hundred more meant to them? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Agree, not just that, but Kim's Dynasty has never been a serious military threat to the U.S per se, even if they fully master /developed nuclear weapons. Since they will be also need to develop the necessary delivery systems(ICBM in large numbers) to Launch these nukes towards the U. S mainland in case of conflict and we all know the U. S have the overwhelming military power to easily crush Kim if necessary in an all out war. SO Kim posses more of a threat to its neighbours S. Korea, Japan and even China (incase their relations turn even more hostile than they are already, yes young Kim isn't a fan of China and vice versa compared to his father .)
Plus, every body always forget to mentioned Japan. Japan also benefits from Kim's Dynasty paranoia, since it neutralizes S. Koreans focus on Japan's past and current actions (WWII war crimes, island disputes etc) by putting the spotlight on Kim while bringing S. Korea closer(even more than they will like) to the tripartite military alliance between S. Korea, Japan and the U. S thus assuring U. S dominance in the region by keeping the alliance strong and stable.
So as long as the status quo remains, the better for the U. S and Japan to a lesser extent. :)
 
Dude, "Far East Section" does not mean there were no American allowed or no western concern.

There are a few American and Western Poster regularly posted in "Far East Section". Did you see them post here?

Maybe you need to check yourself before calling other people dumb a**



Yes, the threat from North Korea is minimum for the US, but it is actually a game changer for the Chinese.

China is not exactly on the good grace for Fat Kim, providing shelter for the diaspora bother, political interference for North Korean politics (That is the main reason why NK would assassinate Kim's Brother in Malaysia). Increasing, North Korea refused more and more Chinese interference and help in multiple stages talk. You can see the growing concern from the North Korean point of view about how Chinese retracting support.

Given the policy change and attitude change from the Chinese government, and US and the west will not ever provide NK with any sort and form of assistance even with Nuclear Tension run high, the only way for NK to continue this is to use the Nuclear Weapon as a bargaining chips toward the Chinese, however, as Chinese more and more unlikely to play balls with North Korea, the sole remaining option for North Korea is to actually have an actual Nuclear Weapon to be a talking point.

Geopolitically, US NEVER wanted Korea to be unified, that is the reason why South Korea were not armed by Truman after the separation from Japanese rules and divided. That is the reason why the North can manage to penetrate all the way to Pusan in the first stage of war. US wanted to milk South Korea, a unified Korea would mean no more need to provide assistance to the South. Why would the US want to kill the cash cow by deposing North Korean regime?

Any people with any sort of critical thinking would know Trump is doing a show, a show to "roast" the tension between North Korea and US, that way, it will allow the South to know the "Threat" are real, and without American protection, they will all be living the great leader of Kim Jong. That is the reason why THAAD is able to deploy even with ROK civilian protest.

China on the other hand, hold no cards in this, yes, if China stop supporting the NK now, NK regime may collapse, or we get into a thermonuclear war. But this is going to be reverse if NK did have functioning nuclear weapon. When that happen, what make you think Kim will still listen to China for "Aids"? What make you think they will not threaten China with nuke for Aids instead? If Kim have Nuke, basically, that's the end game for Chinese, that is a point they can NEVER get rid of supporting the North, if not? A few Hundred Nuke are going to pointing at China, unlike the Nuke Pointing at the US, they won't miss, as they are simply next door.
Agree, however I don't think we can blame China to be honest. The Chinese government has tried everything they can to get N. Korea to open up to the west /world , tone down their empty rhetoric and reform their economy like China did in 1980s but Pyongyang has so far categorically refused or rejected such offer. I believe we overestimate the leverage China have on the N. Korean regime, and with each passing year that leverage decreases even more.
To be honest, at this point I don't think China can do much to influence/change the N. Korean dynasty, since even the few sanctions China agreed with western powers against N. Korea has already infuriated fat kim who sees the Chinese as opportunistic traitors, and China can't take a very hard stance against them either, since this can lead to even more instability or collaspe of the regime leading to millions of refugees pouring into China and with all the instability that entails.
In short, the Chinese have very little choices available to them to be honest.
 
Agree, however I don't think we can blame China to be honest. The Chinese government has tried everything they can to get N. Korea to open up to the west /world , tone down their empty rhetoric and reform their economy like China did in 1980s but Pyongyang has so far categorically refused or rejected such offer. I believe we overestimate the leverage China have on the N. Korean regime, and with each passing year that leverage decreases even more.

To be honest, at this point I don't think China can do much to influence/change the N. Korean dynasty, since even the few sanctions China agreed with western powers against N. Korea has already infuriated fat kim who sees the Chinese as opportunistic traitors, and China can't take a very hard stance against them either, since this can lead to even more instability or collaspe of the regime leading to millions of refugees pouring into China and with all the instability that entails.

In short, the Chinese have very little choices available to them to be honest.

Of course, at this point, China is basically a non-factor to North Korea, after Kim's purge, anyone remotely close to the Chinese (aka the old guard) was killed, there are basically nothing else China could do but to turn off the tap, however, at this point, this is meaningless. Because North Korea already process Nuclear Weapon that can potentially threaten China and South Korea, but not the US at this moment.

The vibe I am getting from the Chinese government, however, is that they want it to be the world's problem, aka after the NK can miniaturize nuclear warhead to put it inside ballistic missile. That may basically drag the world into this nuclear saga which in effect, US won't care much about it. As I said, what is a few more missile pointing at them means? It have no meaning at all. That is the reason why NK can get to this point with nuclear weapon, China don't want to be the bad guy and don't really care about it, US want benefits from East Asia nation and don't care about it, in the end, it ended up North Korean having nuke.

There are nothing Chinese could do beside launching an invasion themselves to overthrown Kim dynasty, or try again and plant people from the within, but that would mean Kim Jong have to die before anything changes, in some degree, Kim Jong don't not trust China, nor have a good rapport toward the Chinese, that is the reason he ordered the purge, and that is the reason he has to die before anything CAN change by the Chinese.
 
Behave yourselves.One more personal attack at one another & then I will ensure complete ban.
 
There are nothing Chinese could do beside launching an invasion themselves to overthrown Kim dynasty, or try again and plant people from the within, but that would mean Kim Jong have to die before anything changes, in some degree, Kim Jong don't not trust China, nor have a good rapport toward the Chinese, that is the reason he ordered the purge, and that is the reason he has to die before anything CAN change by the Chinese
True to some extent. However, I will say that's a long way off, since Fat Kim is still very young (funny enough he was and still is one of the youngest president in the world, he was actually the youngest president on earth when he took power a few years ago. Lol). So I don't think he will be dying anytime soon, he still has a long life ahead of him and he's definitely not hungry or unhealthy contrary to his people . If anything he might outlast every single one of us on this forum. :agree:
Well, I'm considering the average lifespan of brutal dictators throughout history who died in power (or who would have died in power if not for Western powers) the from Stalin, Saddam, to Gaddafi, to Omar Bongo(Gabon), castro (Cuba), to Assad father, Paul Biya (Cameroon), suharto (Indonesia) and many other past and present dictator ship in Africa, middle east, South America. All these dictators were/have been in power for 20-40years on average.
We all know it's very unlikely Kim dynasty will be toppled. So expect Kim to remain in power until he dies. So looking at an average life of dictators (they tend to live far longer than the average nice man. Lol) Kim should be in power no less than 40 years at least baring a miracle /unforseen contingencies. :partay:

Additionally, we all forgot to mention the impact of this news on south Korea's new president in all this. This Kim provocation couldn't come at a worse time for him. I'm afraid his sunshine policy of engagement with Kim will soon turn to sunset policy. He will soon change his delusional policy once Kim is done with him. Reality will soon set in for him, which is unfortunate since if he was dealing with a normal leader instead of a paranoid crazy one like Kim things would have turn out differently.
 
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You have to excuse people in PDF having this degree of naivety, they only cheer and jeered on someone because they don't like the country that's doing or receiving it, they fail to see the biggest loser of a nuclear North Korea is, indeed China. Why?

Let's look at the US, a nuclear North Korea serve the national interest of US by keeping South Korea close, strategically, the geostrategical situation remain unchanged, just because North Korea process a few nuke will not change the fact that Russia already have 4000 nuke pointing at US, China have 200 +, even if North Korea successfully develop ICBM, the fact remain unchanged, there are always nuke that pointing to the US in that region. A few hundred from yet another country from the SAME REGION as China and Russia does not change the chessboard one bit for the US.

On the other hand, by developing Nuclear Weapon and keeping fat Kim in place, IT WILL ALWAYS GOING TO BE A THREAT TO SOUTH KOREA AND JAPAN. Hence, ROK president and Japanese Prime Minister will go over hands and knees to the US for protection, they will buy whatever US throw at them, they will do whatever US ask them to do, just look at how THAAD deployed, even when the deployment was met with local protest? Do you think if NK does not have a nuke program, would THAAD be going ahead and deployed in South Korea without any hitch?

On the other hand, a nuclear powered North Korea will most certainly gone out of the dependent mentality from China, a nuke is very much a large bargaining power to China, Russia and to some extent India and Pakistan. At this moment, Chinese and tighten their reign on North Korea, because they still depend on China, think about it, if North Korea have nuke, will they be a "loyal servant" of China instead they won't just go take what they want? And if China refused to give way to North Korea, would any Chinese here or in Reality really think the North Korean will NOT POINT THEIR NUKE TOWARD CHINA? They may miss shooting nuke toward United States, but NK won't miss shooting nuke to China, they are neighbours....

When North Korea process nuke, Bargaining power the Chinese currently holding is ALL BUT GONE, then it would be the Chinese who have to give in to North Korea demand, monies, weapons and everything, NK wants it, China will have to give it to them.

If I am POTUS, I will actually trying to help North Korea secretly develop Nuke, that will tip the NK-Chinese relationship over from Chinese holding all the cards to North Korea holding all the cards. For the US, it won't change anything. There are 4200+ nuke pointing at the US at that general direction, what's a few hundred more meant to them? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

The theory is inconsistent with some points. In order this theory to be true, then some points would have to be false.

China has been a long supporter of North Korea. And North Korea's nuclear development program has been in existence for a very long time, since the 1990s and China has never raised a harsh voice against DPRK for all this time. After a lot of diplomatic playing around and development of plutonium processing, the first nuclear test was carried out in 2006. The second in 2009. ALl this time, the US has always been in opposition to DPRK doing the whole diplomatic work and such. I can't find any evidence of China giving DPRK a strong voice of criticism or any kind of meaningful degree of sanctions. Third test in 2013, and then, the fourth and fifth test in 2015. So finally, this year, China seems to have applied some real level of penalty. And I think it is because it is the first time that the US made the threat to use military force against North Korea. Before that, it was all that diplomatic, 6 party talk, and all it did was given DPRK time to develop its program. If China really did not want to see a nuclear capable DPRK, then why hasn't China done anything about it in the past 3 decades? It was not China that tried to denuclearize the peninsula in the past 3 decades.. it has always been the US.

Furthermore, there seems to be a Chinese firm, Dandong Hongxiang Industrial Development Co, that has helped with DPRK nuclear technology development.

On the point about DPRK will direct nukes against China is like saying the UK will point their nukes against the US to pressure the US to give whatever the UK wants. No.. just as the US and the UK are aligned, China and the DPRK are also aligned, made evident in the past 3 decades, well.. past 7 decades really. Although it seems to be that it might be the first time this year that DPRK is trying to show displeasure to China. But still certainly more aligned with China than the US.
 
True to some extent. However, I will say that's a long way off, since Fat Kim is still very young (funny enough he was and still is one of the youngest president in the world, he was actually the youngest president on earth when he took power a few years ago. Lol). So I don't think he will be dying anytime soon, he still has a long life ahead of him and he's definitely not hungry or unhealthy contrary to his people . If anything he might outlast every single one of us on this forum. :agree:
Well, I'm considering the average lifespan of brutal dictators throughout history who died in power (or who would have died in power if not for Western powers) the from Stalin, Saddam, to Gaddafi, to Omar Bongo(Gabon), castro (Cuba), to Assad father, Paul Biya (Cameroon), suharto (Indonesia) and many other past and present dictator ship in Africa, middle east, South America. All these dictators were/have been in power for 20-40years on average.
We all know it's very unlikely Kim dynasty will be toppled. So expect Kim to remain in power until he dies. So looking at an average life of dictators (they tend to live far longer than the average nice man. Lol) Kim should be in power no less than 04 years at least baring a miracle /unforseen contingencies. :partay:

Additionally, we all forgot to mention the impact of this news on south Korea's new president in all this. This Kim provocation couldn't come at a worse time for him. I'm afraid his sunshine policy of engagement with Kim will soon turn to sunset policy. He will soon change his delusional policy once Kim is done with him. Reality will soon set in for him, which is unfortunate since if he was dealing with a normal leader instead of a paranoid crazy one like Kim things would have turn out differently.

Moon is quite delusional to have think he could dangle a carrot in front of Fat Kim this time around to be man to man with him. The problem is that people who are this naïve enough to have believe Kim will not take the Carrot and Nuke does not deserve to be a politician. Can moon do that? That's another issue.

Most South Korean does not have a good vibe with the American, but the ground truth is, they despise Fat Kim regime more. And the Washington politician knows that and they will simply pit Kim Jong against the South Korean, that way, it will be a win-win for the American. On one hand, Fat Kim regime will tie down the Chinese, on the other hand, making South Korea closer to the US.

By the way, you missed Franco
 
Agree, not just that, but Kim's Dynasty has never been a serious military threat to the U.S per se, even if they fully master /developed nuclear weapons. Since they will be also need to develop the necessary delivery systems(ICBM in large numbers) to Launch these nukes towards the U. S mainland in case of conflict and we all know the U. S have the overwhelming military power to easily crush Kim if necessary in an all out war. SO Kim posses more of a threat to its neighbours S. Korea, Japan and even China (incase their relations turn even more hostile than they are already, yes young Kim isn't a fan of China and vice versa compared to his father .)
Plus, every body always forget to mentioned Japan. Japan also benefits from Kim's Dynasty paranoia, since it neutralizes S. Koreans focus on Japan's past and current actions (WWII war crimes, island disputes etc) by putting the spotlight on Kim while bringing S. Korea closer(even more than they will like) to the tripartite military alliance between S. Korea, Japan and the U. S thus assuring U. S dominance in the region by keeping the alliance strong and stable.
So as long as the status quo remains, the better for the U. S and Japan to a lesser extent. :)

Of course Japan wants the historical issues with ROK resolved. But Japan most certainly does not want to have a nuclear North Korea on its border. And actually, given that the South Koreans elected the most pro-North Korean candidate for presidency, combined with ROK's continued incapability to do their part in resolving the historical issues, some Japanese think it is hopeless to develop any meaningful level of trilateral defense relations between it, the US, and ROK. This whipped up, artificially created anti-Japanese sentiment in ROK seems to be in conjunction to pro-North Korea sentiment. Japan is not trying to escape historical responsibility in regards to ROK by thinking a threat from DPRK will make it go away, because views it that they have sufficiently compensated and apologized regarding the history, yet the historical issue is continually being agitated by ROK and it is ROK using the historical issue for other agenda. So it is inconceivable to think the imagined threat from DPRK can be used as a mechanism to develop trilateral defense relations. Furthermore, DPRK is no friend of Japan and a nuclear power DPRK would ibe able to increase its bargaining power against Japan. Consider the abduction issue that still continues to this day between Japan and the DPRK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese_citizens
 
The theory is inconsistent with some points. In order this theory to be true, then some points would have to be false.

China has been a long supporter of North Korea. And North Korea's nuclear development program has been in existence for a very long time, since the 1990s and China has never raised a harsh voice against DPRK for all this time. After a lot of diplomatic playing around and development of plutonium processing, the first nuclear test was carried out in 2006. The second in 2009. ALl this time, the US has always been in opposition to DPRK doing the whole diplomatic work and such. I can't find any evidence of China giving DPRK a strong voice of criticism or any kind of meaningful degree of sanctions. Third test in 2013, and then, the fourth and fifth test in 2015. So finally, this year, China seems to have applied some real level of penalty. And I think it is because it is the first time that the US made the threat to use military force against North Korea. Before that, it was all that diplomatic, 6 party talk, and all it did was given DPRK time to develop its program. If China really did not want to see a nuclear capable DPRK, then why hasn't China done anything about it in the past 3 decades? It was not China that tried to denuclearize the peninsula in the past 3 decades.. it has always been the US.

Furthermore, there seems to be a Chinese firm, Dandong Hongxiang Industrial Development Co, that has helped with DPRK nuclear technology development.

On the point about DPRK will direct nukes against China is like saying the UK will point their nukes against the US to pressure the US to give whatever the UK wants. No.. just as the US and the UK are aligned, China and the DPRK are also aligned, made evident in the past 3 decades, well.. past 7 decades really. Although it seems to be that it might be the first time this year that DPRK is trying to show displeasure to China. But still certainly more aligned with China than the US.

To sum up, you raise two point.

1.) If China really did not want to see a nuclear capable DPRK, then why hasn't China done anything about it in the past 3 decades?

2.) Would NK point the nuke on China?

For question 1.

Do bear in mind China only has been in the international political arena for the past decade, which started to make decision that impact the regional security, prior to that, it's nominally about security within Chinese own border.

The problem for China is that, North Korea is a double edged sword, on one hand, had the state of NK gone nuclear, the Chinese have to risk going to thermonuclear war on behalf of North Korea, in case they have used it on South Korea, Japan or the USA. On the other hand, they hold a trump card with North Korea, that is in the form of Kim Jong-nam, which is the key to NK political circle, because politics 101 will tell you, you cannot have a coup without a proper and groomed leadership, Jong-nam is that man. That is why he was protected by the Chinese and stayed in Macau

But now, he's dead, it basically forced Chinese hand to have another approach, up to that point, China can easily (well, not exactly easy, but doable) to have force a regime change and alter the course of North Korea, but now this is not going to be the case, if Kim's gone, there will be an "Iraq" for China to deal with, only this time, they are armed with nuclear weapon.

Kim Jong-UN knows that, that is why he ordered the purge and the assassination of his brother. And that is the ultimatum Kim Jong have with China, this is something You won't be able to imagine the North would do in the past 3 decades, and certainly will not happen had Kim Il-sung is in charge, that tell us something.

A.) Kim Jong does not trust the Chinese, am not going to say he hated them, but he have some sort of mistrust with the Chinese
B.) Kim Jong sees his land no longer being a vassal state to China.

Both of which is Alarming for China.

China does not want to see a nuclear capable North Korea, but one way or another, they could not do anything about it, nor would they have any card to play to begin with. China in early 2000 is still weak and needed North Korea as buffer. But now, things are different, the need for a nuclear power as a buffer does not outweigh the cost Chinese is playing, which is to support the North no matter what and losing the South to the American.

2.) Politics is a strange game, today's friends may be tomorrow enemies, and yesterday's enemies may be today's friends, especially so if you are in a dictator regime. If you want me to name example how easy relationship can change and do a 180, I can name a lot. From Egypt switching side from Soviet after Yom Kippur War, to Iran switching to Russia after Islamic revolution, Vietnam from China to Russia after WW2, Uganda from Israel to Libya and Soviet Union and so on.

Will we see Kim pointing nuke at China? Maybe, or maybe not, but is it possible? Yes, couple with the fact that Kim is not rational or at least does not appear rational. We cannot say for sure, but I will know just this, it would be naïve to think North Korea will still be under Chinese leash if and when they have a full Nuclear Weapon arsenal. Once they have achieve that, North Korea will be more assertive, and China will be more submissive. Unless you honestly think Chinese leadership will still put 100% faith on North Korean leader, because if the Chinese do, there are no way they would provide safe haven to Kim's Brother.
 

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