No J-10B for PAF | A.C Khalid, calls for a focus on 5th generation platform instead.

[Stephen Cohen]

@MastanKhan

SIR A few points to counter your statement

1 )1980 - 82 That was the era of COLD war ; France was USA's ally as was Pakistan
IF USA wanted to DENY INDIA Mirage 2000 ; they could have done so
AS the USA has recently done in the case of MISTRAL ships to Russia

2 ) PAF did not just buy F 16 OFF the shelf ; they were a part of an AID package in 1980-82
because of the Afghan Conflict ; infact the aid package was around 4 BILLION USD

3) France did not offer any aid to India for Mirage 2000

4) It is very unlikely that USA would have given AID to Pakistan to buy French aircraft

5) India immediately went for Mirage 2000 purchase ie As soon as Pakistan signed the contract
for F 16 ; India signed the contract for Mirage 2000

AND EVEN before USA could supply all F 16s to Pakistan ; India had received its Mirages


6 ) Later on India ALSO bought Mig 23 / Mig 25 / Mig 27 / Jaguar / and above all Mig 29
to take on PAF

All these were in our IAF till 1990

India was aware that after Afghan conflict Pakistan would turn on Kashmir

SO we were well prepared for it

By 1990 when Benazir Bhutto was threatening a 1000 year war for Kashmir
IAF was much better than PAF

 

[Folkindia]

Well the JF-17's are meant to replace the existing ageing fleet and will represent as the minimum level fighter planes in Pakistan's Air Force. It is going from strength to strength, though the F-16 is in a heavier class of fighters, i suspect block 2/3 of these birds will be comparable. Particularly block-3.

--
thanks for tag..
if you put yourself in PAF position.. what ever aviable in budjet and can perform well is good for paf..
with all limitaton they still keeping boat a flot where its neigbours adding Sus and Rafael ( if they able to do)
F16 is most desired option for them as all know.. they know that baby in and out .. and can get good blocks if west starts inducting f35s.
JF -17 is good but no where near f16s .. so off the shelf f16 is good ...
5th genration figter only aviablt from china.. but china is way long distance from same ..
so what left is f16 ... jf17

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan

SIR A few points to counter your statement

1 )1980 - 82 That was the era of COLD war ; France was USA's ally as was Pakistan
IF USA wanted to DENY INDIA Mirage 2000 ; they could have done so
AS the USA has recently done in the case of MISTRAL ships to Russia

2 ) PAF did not just buy F 16 OFF the shelf ; they were a part of an AID package in 1980-82
because of the Afghan Conflict ; infact the aid package was around 4 BILLION USD

3) France did not offer any aid to India for Mirage 2000

4) It is very unlikely that USA would have given AID to Pakistan to buy French aircraft

5) India immediately went for Mirage 2000 purchase ie As soon as Pakistan signed the contract
for F 16 ; India signed the contract for Mirage 2000

AND EVEN before USA could supply all F 16s to Pakistan ; India had received its Mirages


6 ) Later on India ALSO bought Mig 23 / Mig 25 / Mig 27 / Jaguar / and above all Mig 29
to take on PAF

All these were in our IAF till 1990

India was aware that after Afghan conflict Pakistan would turn on Kashmir

SO we were well prepared for it

By 1990 when Benazir Bhutto was threatening a 1000 year war for Kashmir
IAF was much better than PAF

Kaho Khait ki---suno Khalian Ki---

 

[WishLivePak]

So what would your likely list look like in terms of numbers? just curious.. Im not sure more F-16's are a viable option, as they are sanction prone. Additionally, the US hasn't supplied Pakistan anything of note for quite some time.

Ideally: (whilst not being overly optimistic)

150 JF-17 Block 2/3
60/70 J-10B
76 (approx) current F-16 fleet, upgraded as much as possible.
36 J-31

I am not air force research guy nor I look into numbers.

I am basing my assumption on that we won't be going on a war with India in the next 5 years (since we're fighting inside already). Thus, we should stick to budget aircrafts and learn from JF-17. After 5-10 years, start working on new 5h, 5.5 or 6 or whatever gen plane.

ok
lets see what in store
Confimred list
86 SU30 MKI,
likely confirmed
Book order for Joint production of 488 Brahmos A,Brahmos M in pipeline, (brahmos is key to india if not russia so it on )
Nuclear Sub Lease, (india can only get nulcear sub from russia so they are only one option )
18 new 1000MW Nuclear reactors, ( deal finalised when putin was in india just recetly )
likely wish list ( its work wither is on or still not satarted but long way to seal it or its competition Russia may or may not get )
250 PMF FGFA/Pakfa, ( on and working )
6 Submarines in P75I, ( no idea )
Over 1000 T90M Tanks ToT and mfg,( i think its ordred but i dont know but kept in this category )
3 Krivak IV Frigates, ( no idea )
39 Mig29K/KUB's, ( no idea )
48 HAL/IL IL 214 MRTA, and another (no idea )

----
india now in new age .. where it some how up to centain extent can say I WANT it or i dont want it to world..
Russia was and is indian best alley .. and reamin so and vice a versa.. but russian too have there problem of cost escalation and delivery issue..
it was unthinkable before 15 yr to say no to russia .. for deal..
thanks to economy , diplomacy now we have open gates..
we now say no to usa too .. and russia too like MMRCA as its based on indian requirment ..
if you see pie of indian market is so large that everyone cn get good share and india too get right product..
how on earth you think india say no f16 IN and best in class figter as there was no TOT..
we gave it to frech.. as they giving TOT .. if now they have issue with it fine .. EFT is ready and waiining..
its just national intrest which india can now stand and say load and clear


--
first thing for any nation is education system..
any developnet in any field need people who work i scicne lab..
USA is ahead becuase it attrack best of best people in there scince lab in basic reseach ..
russia is same as they excel basic science resecah..
china is going toward it..
so develope institution in pak for education and good visionary govt can make you wonders..
--
let me give exam.
despite china and india call to be emeeging market..
china as next super power they still cant work out engine tech.. they ahve money .. govt focus all but still not there.. as it need instituion - people -industry trio to build it .. china will make it today or tomorrow..
so hope india too

We've good education, but everyone goes abroad to work and educated (Since outside world doesn't value Pakistani degrees highly, but Pakistan itself does).

When we have massive projects and pay handsomely, people will stay in Pakistan. Plus, as children see planes being made or high tech developments in Pakistan, they'll try to work hard for it (sort of like cricket. They love cricket, see it, they play on streets). Otherwise, their future will mostly be growing mango trees etc.

 

[Viper0011.]

Yes with a book order or remaining 86 SU30 MKI, Book order for Joint production of 488 Brahmos A,Brahmos M in pipeline, 250 PMF FGFA/Pakfa, AMur competeing for 6 Submarines in P75I, Over 1000 T90M Tanks ToT and mfg, Nuclear Sub Lease, 3 Krivak IV Frigates, 39 Mig29K/KUB's, 48 HAL/IL IL 214 MRTA, and another 18 new 1000MW Nuclear reactors, I am Sure Russians will be selling SU's and Migs to Pakistan....

There were two recent thread opened on here today. One talks about a Times and Janes finding that Russia is providing a new jet engine for Pakistani JFT and the other mentions Sub deal. I guess the logic above doesn't work today, let alone a few years ago....

 

[pursuit of happiness]

There were two recent thread opened on here today. One talks about a Times and Janes finding that Russia is providing a new jet engine for Pakistani JFT and the other mentions Sub deal. I guess the logic above doesn't work today, let alone a few years ago....

--
Russia have right to provide any one anythng they want..
they will not stake india for few $ and that with current scenario where with money they want diplomatic clout at there side..

they are provind RD engine via pak.. to send signal to india as money may not that much for them for those sale ..
even pak gets sub from them fine.. its like IAF getting F16 as even we get those you guys know that in and out so same logic apply to subs in IN vs PN

 

[trident2010]

Hi,

So we are talking about the early 80's when paf got the F 16's---is that right--and you want to know why it was not good for paf---. OK

There were two upcoming aircraft at that time the F16 and the mirage 2K---the F 16 came out a little earlier---. As much drama the paf had created about needing an aircraft of tis caliber was not real---. The Pakistani mirages were good enough for what Russians were flying in afg.

So--F16 was consider the best on a scale of 1---10 the F 16 was a 10. The next aircraft was mirage2K---on the same scale of 1---10 on a given day---it was considered a 9---9 1/2.

At the time the paf was looking foran aircraft---so was india looking for a potent multirole fighter as well. If paf had goen for the mirage 2K-----it would have delivered a coupe de grace on the IAF---. IAF would not have gotten the F 16's at that time for the USA and Pakistan would have gotten a extremely superior aircraft in the form of mirage 2K and denying iaf parity in the air.

By letting the gate open---the paf allowed the IAF to get an aircraft similar to the capabilities of the F 16 in the form of mirage 2K. That was one of the ultimate stupid decision of the paf---. They would go ahead and make anther big blunder by cancelling the procurement of the mirage 2K's in the 90's.

Simply put---after paf bought the F 16's----it allowed the second best aircraft mirage 2K to be bought by IAF----a totally brainless---thoughtless move---no common sense at all.

Thanks for reply. But one can argue that in 80's US-Pak relations were much better than today and hence they did not anticipate the current scenario. No one can predict 30 years in future. And we all know the ultimate goal for pak forces was to get the best against the India and thats why they went for F-16s. In case, If PAF would have bought Mirage 2K then also India might have gone for Mirage 2K too since it was their only choice. With F-16s atleast for some time PAF had a qualitative edge over IAF but yes in US they chose as unreliable defence supplier as possible.

 

[Gufi]

In the mid to late 90's Dale Brown a fiction writer and an ex Navigator on a B52 and B1 bombers writes about a B52 megafortress----an aircraft capable of carrying and launching smart weapons alongwith BVR missiles----. He as these aircraft rebuilt and upgraded at special facitilies---and these aircraft play roles in his works of fiction.

impressive insight.... respect...

I do not know what Pakistani military teaches in military academy and how it trains it officers---. Whenever I have heard an interview with a military cadet---the only thing these moron can say is " I am ready to die for my country " and that is all the MANTRA they know--we will take the eyes out of the enemy is another one---we will break their faces is another one---we will break their teeth is a favorite also.

that is for mass consumption no one here cares about how and with what. But our officers are trained well and most teachers have received education/training from abroad also.

 

[MastanKhan]

Thanks for reply. But one can argue that in 80's US-Pak relations were much better than today and hence they did not anticipate the current scenario. No one can predict 30 years in future. And we all know the ultimate goal for pak forces was to get the best against the India and thats why they went for F-16s. In case, If PAF would have bought Mirage 2K then also India might have gone for Mirage 2K too since it was their only choice. With F-16s atleast for some time PAF had a qualitative edge over IAF but yes in US they chose as unreliable defence supplier as possible.

Hi,

Pakistan was already a mirage user----the French really wanted Pakistan to get the M2K---it was a natural state of progression---. The F16's were not aid---they were paid for. Same thing with the ones that were sanctions---Pakistan paid the money upfront before delivery.

I doubt if france would have sold to india at that time if Pakistan was the first buyer---. But the ultimate tragedy was the cancelation f the deal in the 90's for a mere 2 or 3 million dollars supposed bribe.

 

[AFlover]

Hi,

Pakistan was already a mirage user----the French really wanted Pakistan to get the M2K---it was a natural state of progression---. The F16's were not aid---they were paid for. Same thing with the ones that were sanctions---Pakistan paid the money upfront before delivery.

I doubt if france would have sold to india at that time if Pakistan was the first buyer---. But the ultimate tragedy was the cancelation f the deal in the 90's for a mere 2 or 3 million dollars supposed bribe.

Folks, with every day that passes west will enlarge its distance from islamic countries u all know where the time will take to all towards.
U will see many indians in US lebortaries, space stattions, and learning/working in us & west but u will never see any muslims at these places let alone pakistan
I m off the view that even paf had bought mirages instead of 16s, paf would still have been under sanctions by france due to us influence
Whatever we alreday had bought was the last west will never give u any advance technology but to india
Pak should openly come out of us alliance should play its cards carefully, need more inclinations towards iran, russia china, should support brics transection system, stop accepting any sort of aid from us/west
over relaiance on us is sucidial especially defence, need to push for local products, look for business opportunities with gulf,ME and african countries
The currupt leaders and generals should come out of fears of us west.
Defence deals must be made transperants without kickbacks
Pak should not let go the russians offer void, she must buy some strategic birds, also should by J10C from china in 5yrs time u will know all in/out of this bird this will help to modify further as per requirements will be an alternate to f16s wen they will finish thei life, no embargo as well
PAF should buy J10C even india does not buy rafale and in 60-100 numbers

 

[MilSpec]

Thanks for the wish list. When ALL these contracts are "actually" given to the Russians, let me know. Majority of this stuff may be coming towards the US / West also.
Second, I can clearly tell you have no background in strategic planning. So let's leave it at that. Time will tell a different story, just watch next 5-7 years.

Dude most of your posts are rants of a teenager, tell me how many confirm pakistani deals does pakistan have with russia?

I may not have any background in strategic planning for defence acquisition, but you have a tough time grasping common sense.

 

[Viper0011.]

Dude most of your posts are rants of a teenager, tell me how many confirm pakistani deals does pakistan have with russia?

I may not have any background in strategic planning for defence acquisition, but you have a tough time grasping common sense.

No, you and your friends have a tough time accepting the fact that someone can do business outside of India. Apparently, what India does, a billion people glorify it so much as if its something unique, if someone does it (Specially Pakistan) or does it outside of after cutting through the Indian influence, its not going to happen.
The real rant if from a billion of you about how you and every other Indian is a superior being, when twenty years ago, life was entirely different on the planet India. Let's not over glorify India's influence on Russia and you won't see my post. Normal discussion doesn't mean jack to you guys. Stuff has to be demonized and marginalized if its about Pakistan. If its India, oh my God its the best thing since Cows produced milk!

 

[araz]

Hi,


I doubt if france would have sold to india at that time if Pakistan was the first buyer---. But the ultimate tragedy was the cancelation f the deal in the 90's for a mere 2 or 3 million dollars supposed bribe.

The bribe my friend was a hefty 10 million dollars per plane. For 2 squadrons or 40 plane he wanted 400 million dollars so get your figures right.
Secondly a few months after Benazir's going PAF enquired again but the offer was withdrawn . As to embargoes yòur Augusta 90 B and Rose upgraded M3/5s were embargoed by the french in 2002 and delivered after a fair delay. So what happened with the US could have happened with---- sorry did happen with the french as well. Ah!! please also recall the reprocessing plant that was not delivered after the contract was signed. The point I am trying to make is that the french were equally guilty in the M2K affair and probably in cahoots with Zardari.
araz

 

[MilSpec]

No, you and your friends have a tough time accepting the fact that someone can do business outside of India. Apparently, what India does, a billion people glorify it so much as if its something unique, if someone does it (Specially Pakistan) or does it outside of after cutting through the Indian influence, its not going to happen.
The real rant if from a billion of you about how you and every other Indian is a superior being, when twenty years ago, life was entirely different on the planet India. Let's not over glorify India's influence on Russia and you won't see my post. Normal discussion doesn't mean jack to you guys. Stuff has to be demonized and marginalized if its about Pakistan. If its India, oh my God its the best thing since Cows produced milk!

You do realize the you are only projecting your frustrations....Quite Sad.

 

[Viper0011.]

You do realize the you are only projecting your frustrations....Quite Sad.

Of course I am. When you can't have a logical, sensible debate with the other party because someone is blind sided with Indian patriotism ....others will get frustrated as the purpose behind coming on here is not to hear superior Indian crap.

Its to engage each other in a sensible debate and learn from each other (result of such a debate may be that in a specific topic, the Indian item may be better than others). But you come to that conclusion with debate and facts, not because its an Indian thing so it must be superior.