No J-10B for PAF | A.C Khalid, calls for a focus on 5th generation platform instead.

[Dr. Strangelove]

If J-10B has any some sort of input from PAF, then it should be procured. It has AESA radar, higher engine power, 11 hardpoints, DSI, wide angle HUD, Helmet mounted sight, some RAM coating, IRST, IFR, Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting pod, ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer, MAWs sensor etc.. It is especially designed for high altitude BVR engagements against Su-30mki.

2080 yaar 2040 to boat jadi a jayey ga

 

[princefaisal]

Lets suppose that we get 40 orders of JF-17 from Nigeria & 20 from any other country, then obviously PAC will halt the JF-17 delivery to the PAF and give preference to other buyers. Then the option would be to induct J-10 if we couldn't find any MLU F-16s from elsewhere.

 

[araz]

Lets suppose that we get 40 orders of JF-17 from Nigeria & 20 from any other country, then obviously PAC will halt the JF-17 delivery to the PAF and give preference to other buyers. Then the option would be to induct J-10 if we couldn't find any MLU F-16s from elsewhere.

I dont think it works like that. PAF will get their allocated aircrafts and then foreign orders will be met. Perhaps China may utilize its manufacturing facilities for this purpose or PAF may (less likely) open a second line for ordered ACs but PAF orders will have priority.
Araz

 

[fatman17]

Lets suppose that we get 40 orders of JF-17 from Nigeria & 20 from any other country, then obviously PAC will halt the JF-17 delivery to the PAF and give preference to other buyers. Then the option would be to induct J-10 if we couldn't find any MLU F-16s from elsewhere.

Most unlikely

I dont think it works like that. PAF will get their allocated aircrafts and then foreign orders will be met. Perhaps China may utilize its manufacturing facilities for this purpose or PAF may (less likely) open a second line for ordered ACs but PAF orders will have priority.
Araz

Most likely

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The blunders of PAF----. For many a years I have stated that PAF needed an extremely potent aircraft and that also on a fastrak----because----the lovey dovey posture of the neighbor could change into mean and nasty in a heart beat---and you guys over here---I don't know what frigging world that you lived in had no concept of what I was saying---.

The posture of the neighbor changed within hours of the elections next door---. And as usual---the PAF failed the nation one more time because it was not ready to do its job.

The should have taken the J10's if they were offered with an aesa.

 

[Storm Force]

The should have taken the J10's if they were offered with an aesa.

master khan

not only j10b but also another 18 block 52 from usa

plus paf evaluation of rafale way before india got involved

but its easier said then done too many bridges and hurdles to get these super fighters

 

[araz]

but its easier said then done too many bridges and hurdles to get these super fighters[/QUOTE]
This is the crunch point. MASTAN KHAN and I differ on his and my interpretation of events. He blames the PAF entirely for the fiasco. I assign blame on our flimsy and inept Economy and even more corrupt Government and beaurocrasy. In his hastiness to blame PAF he has forgotten the fact that we never had the money to even keep up payments for what we have bought much less buy new stuff. PAF made a pragmatic choice of developing JFT further and beg the US for more F16s which it is not giving without getting paid for it.
Araz

 

[Paksanity]

Hi,

The blunders of PAF----. For many a years I have stated that PAF needed an extremely potent aircraft and that also on a fastrak----because----the lovey dovey posture of the neighbor could change into mean and nasty in a heart beat---and you guys over here---I don't know what frigging world that you lived in had no concept of what I was saying---.

The posture of the neighbor changed within hours of the elections next door---. And as usual---the PAF failed the nation one more time because it was not ready to do its job.

The should have taken the J10's if they were offered with an aesa.

Apparently PAF was not very impressed with J 10 and wanted to customise it to its requirements. This was a major hurdle as this involves opening aircraft to other vendors outside China. China must be uncomfortable with that. Let's not forget that PAF has exercised with J10 atleast twice. Another 18 Blk 52s are better option in my opinion.

But consider other things, like state of economy, expenditure on terorrism fight, mismanagement by current Government. Now consider this; cash for the throw away price Jordinian F16s was a headache for PAF. How on earth are we talking of 60 million$+ aircraft like that?

PAF has not failed the nation in my opinion. For the resources and equipment they hold, they have done wonderfully well IMHO.

 

[MastanKhan]

master khan

not only j10b but also another 18 block 52 from usa

plus paf evaluation of rafale way before india got involved

but its easier said then done too many bridges and hurdles to get these super fighters

Hi,

There were no hurdles between 2002 till 2005-----paf had the money---French were willing---actually French were desperately willing---paf was just playing a game---a stupid game.

It is a typical game that most of the Pakistanis play over here and everywhere----the game of showing strength with weapons that they don't have and will get in the future.

Pragmatic approaches don't win wars and neither do they stop the enemy to think over twice before striking.

Bridges and hurdles were only created by the Pakistanis. Every thing was open and available for them---the only thing these morons had to do was to kill the terrorists----they are doing it now----after a 150 billion dollars loss and close to a 100 thousand dead---and no end to terrorism in sight----.

How stupid does does a nation has to be to do that---all the clever Punjabis---these stoic pathans----these Urdu speaking muhajjirs that can count the feathers on a sparrow flying overhead or the balochis----what a nation of losers---happily destroyed their motherland for some disgusting foreign terrorists---.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

There were no hurdles between 2002 till 2005-----paf had the money---French were willing---actually French were desperately willing---paf was just playing a game---a stupid game.

It is a typical game that most of the Pakistanis play over here and everywhere----the game of showing strength with weapons that they don't have and will get in the future.

Pragmatic approaches don't win wars and neither do they stop the enemy to think over twice before striking.

Bridges and hurdles were only created by the Pakistanis. Every thing was open and available for them---the only thing these morons had to do was to kill the terrorists----they are doing it now----after a 150 billion dollars loss and close to a 100 thousand dead---and no end to terrorism in sight----.

How stupid does does a nation has to be to do that---all the clever Punjabis---these stoic pathans----these Urdu speaking muhajjirs that can count the feathers on a sparrow flying overhead or the balochis----what a nation of losers---happily destroyed their motherland for some disgusting foreign terrorists---.

I agree with every word you wrote. Wish there were more people in Pakistan like you, it would be a much different place.
The PAF and the PA had ALL the opportunity, the US kept telling them to neutralize this terrorism threat before it becomes a bigger issue for Pakistan, before anyone else. What did Mushy and the generals do?
They kept running conspiracy theories as to the US had 'other' interests. When, in reality, this advise was being given based on the threat perception of Pakistan becoming a terrorist hub. And now, with less than good relationship with major western countries, 100 thousand people and soldiers dead, and billions of economic loss, they are now taking the action. Problem is, the Iron ain't hot no more. The US is pretty much out of Afghanistan, the politicians and the public in the US don't look at Pakistan in a very friendly manner and the work being done has less importance to the US.
Had these steps been taken in 2002 till 2007, you could probably see a lot more F-16's in the PAF, even the JFT would probably be flying with a French engine and Mirage 2000's avionics, with a high likelihood of actually having Mirage 2000's along with F-16's in decent numbers.

This is a much worst repeat of the Hawkeye drama from the 80's and the F-16 saga of the 90's. You'd think that someone would've learned a lesson..... but no!

Apparently PAF was not very impressed with J 10 and wanted to customise it to its requirements.

But consider other things, like state of economy, expenditure on terorrism fight, mismanagement by current Government. Now consider this; cash for the throw away price Jordinian F16s was a headache for PAF. How on earth are we talking of 60 million$+ aircraft like that?

PAF has not failed the nation in my opinion. For the resources and equipment they hold, they have done wonderfully well IMHO.

It's not about 'customization', the J-10B doesn't offer the PAF anything besides some more range, better payload and almost twice the price tag of the JFT, with little less capability in the later, and future room to use miniaturized components of the J-10. So what's better? A J-10B with almost twice the price tag or two JFT's, combined the two, you get better payload, more coverage in the shape of two planes, and less loss / attrition risk as it's two to one physical planes.
J-10B doesn't offer anything above and beyond. The PAF is making a smart move by trying to get fifth gen tech. Then replicate that tech in the JFT block III platform in numbers and with majority tot. But, till this all happens, there are gaps. And those will need to be filled soon, specially with the new hawkish Indian regime on one side and the Afghanis on the other, hating Pakistan.
The first priority should've been to negotiate used F-16's from the US a while ago. The deliveries needed to be happening right now. 175-200 used F-16's can provide a massive punch for the next 10 years for existing Indian platform (I compare to India as that's really the only arch rival Pakistan has). This should give time to induct a fifth gen platform and upgrade all JFT's to block III and introduce a stealthy block III of the JFT platform

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

In the mid to late 90's Dale Brown a fiction writer and an ex Navigator on a B52 and B1 bombers writes about a B52 megafortress----an aircraft capable of carrying and launching smart weapons alongwith BVR missiles----. He as these aircraft rebuilt and upgraded at special facitilies---and these aircraft play roles in his works of fiction.

Guess what---this aircraft is a reality----all the remaining B52's are being upgraded and capable of launching smart and BVR weapons---the news has out in he papers lately---.

Can you imagine 70,000 lbs of smart weapons being launched by one aircraft.

The biggest fear the U S govt has is its intellectual property being stolen thru these works of fictions---and U S believes that the Chinese govt is the largest buyer of these works of fiction regaring hi tech weapons.

So---about 2004-205 I am a member of www.pakdef.org and there is this member Boota Masih----now BOOTA---I mentioned this thing on that board---and this guy makes fun of me amongst many others---he is amongst many a Pakistani intellectual and educated Pakistanis on that board.

The purpose of this post is that Pakistanis had absolutely no exposure to what U S was capable of----what it weapons technology was like----what they were trying to achieve.

I do not know what Pakistani military teaches in military academy and how it trains it officers---. Whenever I have heard an interview with a military cadet---the only thing these moron can say is " I am ready to die for my country " and that is all the MANTRA they know--we will take the eyes out of the enemy is another one---we will break their faces is another one---we will break their teeth is a favorite also.

Even majority of the administrators on this board and other managers talked about beating up the U S military as well---till the time of Salala check post.

What I am trying to tell my countrymen---people---you were neither clever, nor intelligent---God gave you the opportunity and you squandered it like never in the KNOWN HISTORY OF MANKIND---.

For the first 5 years of the WOT---Pakistan had US by the ballz---but the paks did so many stupid things one after the other and they never pulled themselves away from what they do.

There is a saying about the united states----you fear what you do not know about the capabilities of the americans.

I have read materal and works of fiction on Ghingiss Khan----that man also is known to have fear of his enemies. The fear made him know the enemy better---the fear made him prepare to fight the enemy better.

Every great general and leader of men showed fear of their enemy to make themselves prepare to fight them better.

And there is another example right in front of us---the united states military----in 2001 it did not fear the enemy and neither did it prepare well enough for a conquest---and for that reason----even though it killed over 2 and a 1/2 million plus people in afg and Iraq---it still had to leave both these countries with its tail between its legs---a complete and total failure in both of the campaigns---its only saving grace----it fought the wars soe 6 to 7 thousand miles away---it is a continent in itself and can control the news nd the people don't know any better.

Tere came a time for Pakistan---that a year ago---even china gave Pakistan a cold shoulder---china told Pakistan that it is done with it---all its aid is going into deep pockets----Pakistan was lucky that out of sheer stupidity india started confronting china---.

Same with the U S----it had washed its hands from Pakistan---good luck for Pakistan that U S policy in the middle east completely failed---where is that idiot @state-dept-retd ---it was because of his doings ---- and thus Pakistan got a new life.

It is sad to say about my motherland---Pakistanis had the opportunity to reach out and grab the stars out of the skies but they chose to fall into the mud on the ground face first and slipping and struggling to get back up.

My countrymen are so brainless that they loaned the u s govt a billion dollars a year for services which the u s now calls aid---and pays back what it wants to and when it wants to.


King Abdullah just died.

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

Apparently PAF was not very impressed with J 10 and wanted to customise it to its requirements. This was a major hurdle as this involves opening aircraft to other vendors outside China. China must be uncomfortable with that. Let's not forget that PAF has exercised with J10 atleast twice. Another 18 Blk 52s are better option in my opinion.

PAF does not seem to have many options. F-16 Block 52 is good to have. PAF we will buy 36 J-10B that we agreed few years ago if India buys Rafale.

 

[That Guy]

Lets suppose that we get 40 orders of JF-17 from Nigeria & 20 from any other country, then obviously PAC will halt the JF-17 delivery to the PAF and give preference to other buyers. Then the option would be to induct J-10 if we couldn't find any MLU F-16s from elsewhere.

No, that's not how it works. Either a new plant will open in Pakistan, or local assembly plants will open in the purchasing nation.

 

[MastanKhan]

PAF does not seem to have many options. F-16 Block 52 is good to have. PAF we will buy 36 J-10B that we agreed few years ago if India buys Rafale.

Hi,

Currently---only Chinese----if rafale is cancelled by india then French as well.

 

[Paksanity]

I do not know what Pakistani military teaches in military academy and how it trains it officers---. Whenever I have heard an interview with a military cadet---the only thing these moron can say is " I am ready to die for my country " and that is all the MANTRA they know--we will take the eyes out of the enemy is another one---we will break their faces is another one---we will break their teeth is a favorite also.

That is how a cadet is suppose to respond. As he is being groomed for junior officer tasks, he is suppose to carry out orders, just that! He is not the strategy maker. Not yet. Later, military officers will be trained in foreign countries like US, France, Germany, Australia, UK, China, Malaysia etc. Pakistan military officers have been among top graduates of these institutions for a very long time. They are trained very well.

Same with the U S----it had washed its hands from Pakistan---good luck for Pakistan that U S policy in the middle east completely failed---where is that idiot @state-dept-retd ---it was because of his doings ---- and thus Pakistan got a new life.

Pakistan will not be isolated. US will continue to engage Pakistan as its ally. There is growing sense in US establishments that sanctions don't work well with Pakistan. Pakistan has ways to work around them and in doing so gets further pushed into Chinese influence. And recently into Russian influence may be. Saudi influence is also something US wants to curtail. Arms industry also sees Pakistan as a market. While they will not like to transfer technology they will happily sell. Yes even today, Eurofighter is on offer to Pakistan, with strings attached. They are all too aware that Pakistan will procure weapons at whatever cost. More blockage of military hardware pushes Pakistan to develop its own arms industry with Chinese, Russian and Turkish help and Saudi money. This pushes Pakistan in their influence further. That not only kills their market, it also produces competition when Pakistan starts to export these weapons. Not a good scenario for them. So they will continue to engage Pakistan in a way to meet it's minimum defence requirements and keep some sort of military balance in region.

US and West is also way too aware that sanctions have created way too much hatred in common people of Pakistan. In fact Hillary Clinton in her testimony to congressional committee said F 16 has become a symbol of US betrayal to Pakistanis. We should not have withheld those birds. It is printed on Pakistani memory as they have loved their F16 so much.

As of today, Eurofighter, F16, J10 and Grippen are on offer. If India drops Rafael, France will offer it without much hesitation. But they are not the full package that we are looking for. Just for one have faith. PAF commits mistakes, sure it does. But out of all three arms of military, it has been the best so far. It has outperformed others in wars. This happened while having to live under the shadow of much powerful Army.

The years you talk about like 2002-2005. Well Gen Mushshraf had resented PAF since Kargil. He has tried put blame on PAF for his planning failures. PAF was not even part of this plan to start with. Qaiser Tufail has testified to that.

Given what they have and the limited space they can wiggle in, PAF does a fine job.