Nationalism as opposed to Religion?

[RuheTag]

Islam is a framework to live the life God wants us to live, and God ordains this framework so that humanity benefits.

I agree with first part. that Quran and Islam is all what God wants us to do.. and the second statement is questionable. Humanity includes all Muslims and non-Muslims.

And there is plenty of discrimination can be found in Islam against non-Muslim... starting from forbade to give them zakat.. and to force them to pay money for their safety in a Islamic state. Allowing non-Muslims into Islam happily,, orders to kill who goes out of Islam. Allowing Muslim men to marry Christian or Jewish Girls but forbade it for Muslim girls.

And the gender discrimination .. justification/permit for violence against women when they do not adhere to their men or go to the 'wrong way'. Urge to beat children if they do not pray. Half share of women in inheritance. Half importance to women as witnesses in court. Allowing underage girls be married to old men. forbidding women to lead prayer.

The only argument in favour of Islam usually given is, Islam made things better for humanity comparing to the situation in Arabs before Islam. But are those Islamic values justifiable in today's morality (as Islam is valid till end of the world, so those values should hold today as well)?

 

[CometMibro]

I agree with first part. that Quran and Islam is all what God wants us to do.. and the second statement is questionable. Humanity includes all Muslims and non-Muslims.

Agreed. Non Muslims have rights under a caliphate.

And there is plenty of discrimination can be found in Islam against non-Muslim... starting from forbade to give them zakat.. and to force them to pay money for their safety in a Islamic state.

Obviously. Conscription cannot be applied to non-muslims under a Muslim state. Zakat tax is generally higher than Jizya tax. So really, being a Muslim you give more to the state than being a non-Muslim.

Zakat must go to Muslims, but sadaqah can go to non-Muslims and the caliphate makes sure non-Muslism are also fed.

Allowing non-Muslims into Islam happily,, orders to kill who goes out of Islam.

because a caliphate is the law of God, so apostasy is literally treason. Nobody is forcing you to practice Islam, but once you go vocal in your opposition toward it, you hurt society as a whole. Look at the war of the apostates after the death of the Prophet.

Allowing Muslim men to marry Christian or Jewish Girls but forbade it for Muslim girls.

Because as a rule men are the earners of society and providers for their family. Say for example a muslim girl marries a christian/jewish man who doesn't earn halal income; what is the girl going to do to force her man to stop?

And the gender discrimination .. justification/permit for violence against women when they do not adhere to their men or go to the 'wrong way'.

You don't beat your wife. You can strike your wife once at last resort (after trying many things) to SAVE your marriage. Say your wife is flirting with other men. At first, you advice her. Then you admonish. Then you ignore her in bed. At last resort to can strike her GENTLY, and it cannot leave a mark, after that, divorce. This is there to protect a marriage not to break it/

Urge to beat children if they do not pray.

Just like you would hit a kid who isn't brushing his teeth or has a habit of pooping on the carpet after you've told him for several years.

Half share of women in inheritance.

Because in Islam men are LEGALLY bound to take care of their families. Shariah law permits the woman to take her husband to court. A man who takes the money of his wife to spend on the family is considered a thief. So when a man inherits money he inherits it for his own family. When a woman inherits she inherits it for herself ALONE.

Half importance to women as witnesses in court.

Because it's not their duty. Do you expect women to describe violent rape cases and murder cases accurately in front of many men? How many women will actually rather not report rape and stay quiet rather than let it be known to society? Secondly, can you trust the female members of your inlaws to give truthful testimony? (just kidding, that was a joke!)

Allowing underage girls be married to old men.

It's been happening for ages. This criticism only began when westerners stopped doing it. Puberty IS adulthood, and when people are mature enough to have sex they can have marital relations. There is nothing wrong with this.

forbidding women to lead prayer.

Ahem, what happens when a woman bends down for prayer? Or does prostration? Jeez...

The only argument in favour of Islam usually given is, Islam made things better for humanity comparing to the situation in Arabs before Islam. But are those Islamic values justifiable in today's morality (as Islam is valid till end of the world, so those values should hold today as well)?

Yes they should, otherwise humanity will be voting on their morals til the end of time. What was morally wrong 100 years ago is fine today, and what is wrong today was fine 100 years ago. Let me give you an example of human morality:

Say for example hitler took over the world and Nazi ideology was normal. In this instance, everyone would think it is absolutely fine to kill jews. Does it make it okay though? According to society? Yes, according to God? NO.

We take our morals from God. If we can prove the Qur'an is the word of God then Islam is the best set of morals and always encompasses all all of time and situations.

 

[livingdead]

Guys, its about religion, not islam specifically. How many muslims will agree if the minorities put their religion before nation( say hindus, christians, ahmedis and shia of pakistan).
If they say their religion comes first, and country later, will you be happy with that?

 

[RuheTag]

because a caliphate is the law of God, so apostasy is literally treason. Nobody is forcing you to practice Islam, but once you go vocal in your opposition toward it, you hurt society as a whole. Look at the war of the apostates after the death of the Prophet.



Because as a rule men are the earners of society and providers for their family. Say for example a muslim girl marries a christian/jewish man who doesn't earn halal income; what is the girl going to do to force her man to stop?



You don't beat your wife. You can strike your wife once at last resort (after trying many things) to SAVE your marriage. Say your wife is flirting with other men. At first, you advice her. Then you admonish. Then you ignore her in bed. At last resort to can strike her GENTLY, and it cannot leave a mark, after that, divorce. This is there to protect a marriage not to break it/



Just like you would hit a kid who isn't brushing his teeth or has a habit of pooping on the carpet after you've told him for several years.



Because in Islam men are LEGALLY bound to take care of their families. Shariah law permits the woman to take her husband to court. A man who takes the money of his wife to spend on the family is considered a thief. So when a man inherits money he inherits it for his own family. When a woman inherits she inherits it for herself ALONE.


Because it's not their duty. Do you expect women to describe violent rape cases and murder cases accurately in front of many men? How many women will actually rather not report rape and stay quiet rather than let it be known to society? Secondly, can you trust the female members of your inlaws to give truthful testimony? (just kidding, that was a joke!)



It's been happening for ages. This criticism only began when westerners stopped doing it. Puberty IS adulthood, and when people are mature enough to have sex they can have marital relations. There is nothing wrong with this.



Ahem, what happens when a woman bends down for prayer? Or does prostration? Jeez...



Yes they should, otherwise humanity will be voting on their morals til the end of time. What was morally wrong 100 years ago is fine today, and what is wrong today was fine 100 years ago. Let me give you an example of human morality:

Say for example hitler took over the world and Nazi ideology was normal. In this instance, everyone would think it is absolutely fine to kill jews. Does it make it okay though? According to society? Yes, according to God? NO.

We take our morals from God. If we can prove the Qur'an is the word of God then Islam is the best set of morals and always encompasses all all of time and situations.

You are giving justifications of those discriminations which are questionable. But don't you agree that there is discrimination? (OK, for some or many it is a 'justifiable discrimination')

This is not to prove hitler or west is right or wrong (what West did to humanity 70 years ago, never happened before,, and hopefully will not happen again too). When examining Islam with today's morality all that sounds pretty clear discrimination.

 

[Biplab Bijay]

off-topic : What the hell ? Is this Islam and Shariah ? Its very much scary. Oh my god.

On topic : If some one want to choose me between religion and country, I will go for country. For me
country > my parents > religion(God)

Agreed. Non Muslims have rights under a caliphate.



Obviously. Conscription cannot be applied to non-muslims under a Muslim state. Zakat tax is generally higher than Jizya tax. So really, being a Muslim you give more to the state than being a non-Muslim.

Zakat must go to Muslims, but sadaqah can go to non-Muslims and the caliphate makes sure non-Muslism are also fed.



because a caliphate is the law of God, so apostasy is literally treason. Nobody is forcing you to practice Islam, but once you go vocal in your opposition toward it, you hurt society as a whole. Look at the war of the apostates after the death of the Prophet.



Because as a rule men are the earners of society and providers for their family. Say for example a muslim girl marries a christian/jewish man who doesn't earn halal income; what is the girl going to do to force her man to stop?



You don't beat your wife. You can strike your wife once at last resort (after trying many things) to SAVE your marriage. Say your wife is flirting with other men. At first, you advice her. Then you admonish. Then you ignore her in bed. At last resort to can strike her GENTLY, and it cannot leave a mark, after that, divorce. This is there to protect a marriage not to break it/



Just like you would hit a kid who isn't brushing his teeth or has a habit of pooping on the carpet after you've told him for several years.



Because in Islam men are LEGALLY bound to take care of their families. Shariah law permits the woman to take her husband to court. A man who takes the money of his wife to spend on the family is considered a thief. So when a man inherits money he inherits it for his own family. When a woman inherits she inherits it for herself ALONE.


Because it's not their duty. Do you expect women to describe violent rape cases and murder cases accurately in front of many men? How many women will actually rather not report rape and stay quiet rather than let it be known to society? Secondly, can you trust the female members of your inlaws to give truthful testimony? (just kidding, that was a joke!)



It's been happening for ages. This criticism only began when westerners stopped doing it. Puberty IS adulthood, and when people are mature enough to have sex they can have marital relations. There is nothing wrong with this.



Ahem, what happens when a woman bends down for prayer? Or does prostration? Jeez...



Yes they should, otherwise humanity will be voting on their morals til the end of time. What was morally wrong 100 years ago is fine today, and what is wrong today was fine 100 years ago. Let me give you an example of human morality:

Say for example hitler took over the world and Nazi ideology was normal. In this instance, everyone would think it is absolutely fine to kill jews. Does it make it okay though? According to society? Yes, according to God? NO.

We take our morals from God. If we can prove the Qur'an is the word of God then Islam is the best set of morals and always encompasses all all of time and situations.

 

[Azazel]

It is narrated by Abu Da'wud that the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,

"He is not one us who calls for nationalism, or who fights for nationalism or who dies for nationalism."

Both are dangerous and ugly ideologies.Both these ideologies are responsible for countless wars and many millions of deaths.I consider my self a patriot but not a nationalist.

seriously? lol
do you really believe that?
for me my religion is first before my nation, becuase i believe it to be true so obviously i would put god before pakistan.

Nationalism originated in 18th century Europe.

 

[livingdead]

But are dangerous and ugly ideologies.Both these ideologies are responsible for countless wars and many millions of deaths.I consider my self a patriot but not a nationalist.



Nationalism originated in 18th century Europe.

same pinch?

 

[Azazel]

primary allegiance to the country does not mean that Muslims will follow Hindu dictation wrg to the faith.

also when hindus do keep faith above the country then why you guys are asking Muslims to prove their nationalism by doing away with their faith.

Another Pakistani confused with confused with Nationalism and religion.Unlike Pakistan our country is not based on any faith,We don't link our Nationalism to religion.In fact many of our well known Nationalists are well known Atheists.You can follow anything you like.If I were a Pakistani probably you too would've called me a Murtad.

 

[Juice]

Teaches wrong embryology but permits inter-marriage. Supposedly a big scientific blunder as Muslims make up for the largest victims of genetic disorders due to intermarriage.

Science in Islam was a work of propaganda funded with petrodollars and awarded to shoddy "good for nothing" scholars and scientists. Today this propaganda has completely ruined lives of thousands of people and has raised a generation of idiots as evident also on PDF!

You hear the same in Christianity.....as though some obvious observations already well-known by the likes of the Greeks etc. proves anything.

I have seen these debates about embryology, so no need to tell me about supposed 'errors'' [btw how do you explain the existence of historically accurate names mentioned in the Quran like ''Haman'' which were not even mentioned in the Old Testament.]

And about inter-marriage, yes it is permitted and nearly half my nanyaal in Pakistan is married to cousins. They are all perfectly fine alhamdulillah and many are doctors and engineers. However yes there is an extremely slightly increased chance of genetic problems and due to tis Hazrat Umar radi allahu anhu has gone on record to discourage inter-cousin marriage to breed healthier kids.

Simple....they guys in the old testament didn't go there or care about it. Mentioning known place proves squat....the bible mentions a lot of well-known places......so what? So do the legends of Hercules etc.

 

[CometMibro]

You hear the same in Christianity.....as though some obvious observations already well-known by the likes of the Greeks etc. proves anything.

Simple....they guys in the old testament didn't go there or care about it. Mentioning known place proves squat....the bible mentions a lot of well-known places......so what? So do the legends of Hercules etc.

The problem with christianity is that there is no way you can prove that you are following the teachings of the Prophets.

 

[Juice]

You are giving justifications of those discriminations which are questionable. But don't you agree that there is discrimination? (OK, for some or many it is a 'justifiable discrimination')

This is not to prove hitler or west is right or wrong (what West did to humanity 70 years ago, never happened before,, and hopefully will not happen again too). When examining Islam with today's morality all that sounds pretty clear discrimination.

Never happened before? Do you know ANY history? Wiping out a nation and selling the few survivors into slavery was the NORM for a good portion of history. What made the Nazi a little shocking is we thought we had got beyond that. Now we know better.

 

[CometMibro]

You are giving justifications of those discriminations which are questionable. But don't you agree that there is discrimination? (OK, for some or many it is a 'justifiable discrimination')

This is not to prove hitler or west is right or wrong (what West did to humanity 70 years ago, never happened before,, and hopefully will not happen again too). When examining Islam with today's morality all that sounds pretty clear discrimination.

Of course. Stuff that sounds strange to you or discriminatory to you right now will seem perfectly normal 500 years from now, because human morals are always unfortunately decided by humans. Adultery seems moral? Okay, no prob. Homosexuality seems okay? Yup, no prob. We just decide on what we want to do, unless we take our morals from an objective source.

I am not a fan of apologetics. This is how I think:

1. Can we prove the religion is from God? Yes, IF SO
2. Can we prove that the religion is the SAME as it was as revealed to the Prophet (e.g. Jesus, Moses, Elijah, Muhammad, etc, peace be upon them all) who it was given to? Yes, IF SO
3. Every single thing it says is out of the WISDOM of God. Any idea that seems strange to you will have a reason behind it that God knows and you don't.

Of course, non-Muslims generally ask questions like "why do your women wear that thing?" or "why can't you eat pig?", we can offer short explanations to these (they all have good reasons) but the most correct answer would be "because we know that God told us to do it"

 

[Juice]

The problem with christianity is that there is no way you can prove that you are following the teachings of the Prophets.

I agree....same for Islam. Or any religion. (unless you got proof that doesn't involve the religious double-speak you find in ALL of them). PS....Islam is a break-away Christian denomination that took on a life of its own....same as Christianity was a break-away Jewish sect. The fact that Jesus is in the Koran kinda proves it. (and there are PLENTY of Christian sects that don't think Jesus was divine etc.....and that like to mix old Judaism in...like no pork...ritual bathing etc)

 

[Juice]

Of course. Stuff that sounds strange to you or discriminatory to you right now will seem perfectly normal 500 years from now, because human morals are always unfortunately decided by humans. Adultery seems moral? Okay, no prob. Homosexuality seems okay? Yup, no prob. We just decide on what we want to do, unless we take our morals from an objective source.

I am not a fan of apologetics. This is how I think:

1. Can we prove the religion is from God? Yes, IF SO
2. Can we prove that the religion is the SAME as it was as revealed to the Prophet (e.g. Jesus, Moses, Elijah, Muhammad, etc, peace be upon them all) who it was given to? Yes, IF SO
3. Every single thing it says is out of the WISDOM of God. Any idea that seems strange to you will have a reason behind it that God knows and you don't.

Of course, non-Muslims generally ask questions like "why do your women wear that thing?" or "why can't you eat pig?", we can offer short explanations to these (they all have good reasons) but the most correct answer would be "because we know that God told us to do it"

I agree....but if your proof is "it gives me a fuzzy feeling" or "my book says the earth is round!" ....it doesn't pass as any sort of "proof".....the Greeks knew the earth was round...even had a good idea of the size...postulated atomic theory....so Apollo must be real?

 

[RuheTag]

Never happened before? Do you know ANY history? Wiping out a nation and selling the few survivors into slavery was the NORM for a good portion of history. What made the Nazi a little shocking is we thought we had got beyond that. Now we know better.

OK my bad. I thought the world population some centuries wasn't that bigger in comparison to the number of people killed in WWs.