My problem with Rafale, lets start with Radar

[he-man]

Still at it with banal comparisons sans knowledge of IAF's operational doctrine and why there are different weight classes of fighters to begin with...sigh..

all that is rubbish and bullshit

what would u say to 40 million plus mirage 2000 upgrade??

please elaborate based on capabilities on mirage 2000??

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

We can't penetrate modern dense air defences effectively for air strikes with high RCS flankers.Thats why rafale is imp for low RCS and superb EW in SPECTRA which has data fusion[i think the only operational one flying save raptor with this tech],granted its radar isn't as big.Also you won'tr have meteor BVRs with flankers yet,Meteor will give us a qualitative jump in AAM tech over suspect r-77.
Al;so sortie rate of european aircraft has been way better than russian,proved by mirages

 

[he-man]

@he-man

I agree with the points you made on the first page. As so i would like to know your opinion about the argument made everytime that we should not keep all eggs in one basket.

From whatever little i know i find IAF to be very satisfied with the French platforms hence in a way justifying the exorbitant upgrade of the Mirage fighter. Hence IAF maybe biased towards French platform in that sense. And i do agree with you on the Upgrades. I can't even imagine what that amount could be.

Do you think instead of Su 35 we could order more MKI? And then subsequently upgrading them to Super Sukhoi? What do you think about that?

no mki is out of question as

1)al-31f engine is old and has service life of only 2000 hours and high failure rate
2)huge rcs of at least more than 10m2
3)old bars radar with older pesa technology and low peak power of only 7kw compared to 18kw of su-35 radar
4)the body is all metal
5)limited air to ground capability

so we will upgrade the already ordered mki to super sukhoi standard and there is 0 possibility of ordering more mki

su-35 though,if it gets fitted with pakfa electronics is way better option than rafale in any way

 

[Dillinger]

all that is rubbish and bullshit

what would u say to 40 million plus mirage 2000 upgrade??

please elaborate based on capabilities on mirage 2000??

Quite simple if you would pay attention to what the upgrade entails..I can't spoon feed you...lord knows it has to be done for so many folks here..think about it and I'm sure you'll get the answer.

Here is a hint- the main role of high speed interdiction and dedicated precision ground strike requires a robust ECM capability, requires additional refining of SAR functionality and most of all for the AC to operate as a dedicated ground mover it needs the proper data fusion provided by the MDPU. Last but not the least the IAF is doing all it can to ensure that its close to its sanctioned strength by the end of this decade and it is not going to depend upon platforms which are yet to reach the desired maturity. 

We can't penetrate modern dense air defences effectively for air strikes with high RCS flankers.Thats why rafale is imp for low RCS and superb EW in SPECTRA which has data fusion[i think the only operational one flying save raptor with this tech],granted its radar isn't as big.Also you won'tr have meteor BVRs with flankers yet,Meteor will give us a qualitative jump in AAM tech over suspect r-77.
Al;so sortie rate of european aircraft has been way better than russian,proved by mirages

Not particularly, a Flanker with the right outfitting can be a very effective SEAD/DEAD platform.

 

[he-man]

We can't penetrate modern dense air defences effectively for air strikes with high RCS flankers.Thats why rafale is imp for low RCS and superb EW in SPECTRA which has data fusion[i think the only operational one flying save raptor with this tech],granted its radar isn't as big.Also you won'tr have meteor BVRs with flankers yet,Meteor will give us a qualitative jump in AAM tech over suspect r-77.
Al;so sortie rate of european aircraft has been way better than russian,proved by mirages

the spectra bullshit has been going for far too long
its effctive only against pesa or pulse doppler radars and useless against a modern aesa as aesa frequencies change instantaneously

 

[Dillinger]

the spectra bullshit has been going for far too long
its effctive only against pesa or pulse doppler radars and useless against a modern aesa as aesa frequencies change instantaneously

Because obviously a dedicated seducer/emitter cannot cope with frequency hopping. Think hard before you answer/post.

 

[he-man]

Quite simple if you would pay attention to what the upgrade entails..I can't spoon feed you...lord knows it has to be done for so many folks here..think about it and I'm sure you'll get the answer.

Here is a hint- the main role of high speed interdiction and dedicated precision ground strike requires a robust ECM capability, requires additional refining of SAR functionality and most of all for the AC to operate as a dedicated ground mover it needs the proper data fusion provided by the MDPU. Last but not the least the IAF is doing all it can to ensure that its close to its sanctioned strength by the end of this decade and it is not going to depend upon platforms which are yet to reach the desired maturity. 


Not particularly, a Flanker with the right outfitting can be a very effective SEAD/DEAD platform.

i am sorry but it has a shitty rdy-2 radar
the rest of ecm capability may be okay but 40 million per plane??are u serious

regarding sar..............even useless mig-29k radar has sar capability so pls don't bring that point
self protection suite of mig-29k is one of the best in iaf at the moment and still a new one costs 40 million so how do u think mirage 2000 upgrade is a fair price?? 
i have read everywher

Because obviously a dedicated seducer/emitter cannot cope with frequency hopping. Think hard before you answer/post.

till we get ddm-ng rafale will be useless against aesas
the point remains

and we will get ddm-ng in the next mlu so u must think before u post too

 

[Dillinger]

i am sorry but it has a shitty rdy-2 radar
the rest of ecm capability may be okay but 40 million per plane??are u serious

regarding sar..............even useless mig-29k radar has sar capability so pls don't bring that point
self protection suite of mig-29k is one of the best in iaf at the moment and still a new one costs 40 million so how do u think mirage 2000 upgrade is a fair price?? 
i have read everywher


till we get ddm-ng rafale will be useless against aesas
the point remains

and we will get ddm-ng in the next mlu so u must think before u post too

AGAIN what makes you so sure that the Spectra cannot cope with an AESA? Please detail what a dedicated EW suite requires, not components I want details- the likes of which I have to shell out sporadically..lets have it.

Oh the IAF is very serious about it...lets start with the basics..AGAIN..what is the fundamental difference between an AESA and a ESA radar?

 

[he-man]

AGAIN what makes you so sure that the Spectra cannot cope with an AESA? Please detail what a dedicated EW suite requires, not components I want details- the likes of which I have to shell out sporadically..lets have it.

Oh the IAF is very serious about it...lets start with the basics..AGAIN..what is the fundamental difference between an AESA and a ESA radar?

man i know this stuff
please

all the forums say the same thing that unless rafale gets ddm ng it won't be effective against aesa

 

[kbd-raaf]

man i know this stuff
please

all the forums say the same thing that unless rafale gets ddm ng it won't be effective against aesa

If you know 'this stuff' then please, prove it.

All I've seen from you is a lot of rhetoric and little substance.

 

[he-man]

and there is no way to prove ur point or disapprove mine except for the point that ddm came into being in 2000 or so and obviously was directed at pesas which were the dominant technology at that time

now they have been developing ddm ng for a while due to aesas 
e

If you know 'this stuff' then please, prove it.

All I've seen from you is a lot of rhetoric and little substance.

what do u want to know genious

both pesa and aesa fall under purview of esa

pesa------it has got t/r modules like aesa but each t/r module does not have indipendent power.............the total power is distributed among all modules as a result lpi mode is impossible(nearly) for a pesa

also all t/r modules operate at fixed frequency so detection of pesa is far too easy 
why dosen't anyone comment on rafale aesa size?? 
did u get

If you know 'this stuff' then please, prove it.

All I've seen from you is a lot of rhetoric and little substance.

got it

anything else

 

[Dillinger]

man i know this stuff
please

all the forums say the same thing that unless rafale gets ddm ng it won't be effective against aesa

YOU know this stuff. How convenient, lets have the "stuff". Start with the sub-components of a RWR and end it with the difference between a SPJ and a proper EW suite. I have see the depth of your knowledge in the past, it has been found wanting...so elucidate.

Let me put it this way, you are wrong..not surprising because you seem to think that somehow something akin to the "virgilius" matches the Spectra simply because it happens to be based on solid state technology (an area where you had significant confusion last I checked).

 

[he-man]

AGAIN what makes you so sure that the Spectra cannot cope with an AESA? Please detail what a dedicated EW suite requires, not components I want details- the likes of which I have to shell out sporadically..lets have it.

Oh the IAF is very serious about it...lets start with the basics..AGAIN..what is the fundamental difference between an AESA and a ESA radar?

why are u asking be so much stuff

why don't u elaborate ur point on mirage 2000 and its cost??
u have provided 0 info except long sentences with very good english i must say(compliment)

 

[Dillinger]

and there is no way to prove ur point or disapprove mine except for the point that ddm came into being in 2000 or so and obviously was directed at pesas which were the dominant technology at that time

now they have been developing ddm ng for a while due to aesas 
e

what do u want to know genious

both pesa and aesa fall under purview of esa

pesa------it has got t/r modules like aesa but each t/r module does not have indipendent power.............the total power is distributed among all modules as a result lpi mode is impossible(nearly) for a pesa

also all t/r modules operate at fixed frequency so detection of pesa is far too easy 
why dosen't anyone comment on rafale aesa size?? 
did u get

got it

anything else

Much more, this is what qualifies for the tag of sparse details and is info one can pick up by simply cruising through a forum. So again, what is the fundamental difference in the functionality of an AESA and an ESA then a MSA...

 

[he-man]

YOU know this stuff. How convenient, lets have the "stuff". Start with the sub-components of a RWR and end it with the difference between a SPJ and a proper EW suite. I have see the depth of your knowledge in the past, it has been found wanting...so elucidate.

Let me put it this way, you are wrong..not surprising because you seem to think that somehow something akin to the "virgilius" matches the Spectra simply because it happens to be based on solid state technology (an area where you had significant confusion last I checked).

see man there is no point in slinging mud on me

the very fact they are developing ddm ng solidifies my point....................ddm details are classified,u know it

but it is a very old technology,10 years old