My problem with Rafale, lets start with Radar

[sancho]

india should have just gone chinese way..........................we would have been better served that way.at least they are doing everything on their own

Which shows why you are so way off with you views, please check how many indigenous helicopters they have developed, check how dependent they are on Russian for engines of most aircrafts and I won't start about the copies here. The chinese way is not doing everything on their own, but with the possibilities they have! They can only get limited things from foreign countries, unlike India, but they do make things simple and use the limited access to foreign stuff far better than we do. The simple fact that although they spend billions into defence, they were smart enough to use proven Russian engines in nearly all their prototypes and fighters, instead of depending on their indigenous engine developments shows the difference. That's why JF 17 and J10 are ready and inducted, while LCA is waited for Kaveri and still is in protoype stage only.

 

[Dillinger]

what if i had to interact with them??

i am sure i will shoot all of them 


the problem is we have nothing to offer in a jv

zero,zilch................aanda

we can only put money hats it,,,we can't produce a good mmr on our own and u want jv in rafale upgrade??
thats wishful thinking

Not particularly, there are areas where significant JVs can occur granted a special vehicle like the BrahMos Co. is incorporated for the same. The French govt.'s decision to release source codes and the fixed cost program for contractor logistics support is a deal winner. Everything form in situ maintenance to programming the SPECTRA suite as per our wishes. 

Which shows why you are so way off with you views, please check how many indigenous helicopters they have developed, check how dependent they are on Russian for engines of most aircrafts and I won't start about the copies here. The chinese way is not doing everything on their own, but with the possibilities they have! They can only get limited things from foreign countries, unlike India, but they do make things simple and use the limited access to foreign stuff far better than we do. The simple fact that although they spend billions into defence, they were smart enough to use proven Russian engines in nearly all their prototypes and fighters, instead of depending on their indigenous engine developments shows the difference. That's why JF 17 and J10 are ready and inducted, while LCA is waited for Kaveri and still is in protoype stage only.

Correction- was waiting for the Kaveri till the projects were de-linked (but it caused the irreparable delay anyway).

 

[sancho]

You vastly overestimate the MoD and its babus. A sad Sancho you shall be if you ever actually had to associate with them....trust me.

I know, that's why I said imo, but I know that it won't happen. Things in India are going way too complicated and not necessarily in straight routes. However, the M-MRCA gets us a lot wrt industrial benefits and improvement, especially of the privat industry and IAF gets operationally far more capable too.

 

[he-man]

Not particularly, there are areas where significant JVs can occur granted a special vehicle like the BrahMos Co. is incorporated for the same. The French govt.'s decision to release source codes and the fixed cost program for contractor logistics support is a deal winner. Everything form in situ maintenance to programming the SPECTRA suite as per our wishes.

ur example of brahmos is laughable as we don't make engine for brahmos which is the difficult area but provide only guidance and maybe propellant

thats hardly something to boast about

 

[Dillinger]

ur example of brahmos is laughable as we don't make engine for brahmos which is the difficult area but provide only guidance and maybe propellant

thats hardly something to boast about

We couldn't do it back then, but unless you think a LPI radar altimeter and CM avionics appeared in our laps out of no-where you'll have to re-think your statement. Its not what you contribute to the JV but what you get out of it that matters..when we sat down with Edgewood for mission avionics we didn't know squat diddle about that stuff but today you have successfully integrated products like OSMAC...the list is long and will require another page length post. So as always do your research.

 

[he-man]

Which shows why you are so way off with you views, please check how many indigenous helicopters they have developed, check how dependent they are on Russian for engines of most aircrafts and I won't start about the copies here. The chinese way is not doing everything on their own, but with the possibilities they have! They can only get limited things from foreign countries, unlike India, but they do make things simple and use the limited access to foreign stuff far better than we do. The simple fact that although they spend billions into defence, they were smart enough to use proven Russian engines in nearly all their prototypes and fighters, instead of depending on their indigenous engine developments shows the difference. That's why JF 17 and J10 are ready and inducted, while LCA is waited for Kaveri and still is in protoype stage only.

please don't make such sweeping statements.

china is miles ahead of indiain any sector except services like IT(english benefits us)
and stop laughing at j-10........they have put all their own systems including weapons ,radar,ew...................all except the engine which they will develop soon enough.

we have made nothing as far as aircrafts are concerned

most of the important sub-systems of tejas are imported and same is with dhruv with 90% imported maal

where are we in computer hardware???
answer---nowhere,,,we can't make a single relevant chip of any architecture whether its arm or x86
and then look at china with companies like mediatek,huawei,oppo,lenovo

we have nothing even remotely comparable

 

[sancho]

Not particularly, there are areas where significant JVs can occur granted a special vehicle like the BrahMos Co. is incorporated for the same. The French govt.'s decision to release source codes and the fixed cost program for contractor logistics support is a deal winner. Everything form in situ maintenance to programming the SPECTRA suite as per our wishes. 


Correction- was waiting for the Kaveri till the projects were de-linked (but it caused the irreparable delay anyway).

Of course till the project was de-linked, but when was it de-linked? At least a decade too late! If we didn't have waited so long for it and sticked to a ready and proven engine, we would have inducted LCA in IAF years ago. Simple example, HAL produces RD 33 since years, if we had simply taken RD93 engines for LCA MK1 at the begining and had developed Kaveri engine de-linked from LCA as an own development, we would have 50 LCAs inducted now, just like PAF has 50 JF 17s and China is developing their own engine as a side development. But we wanted to claim to be able to fit an indigenous engine into an indigenous fighter, which is why we made the one development, dependent on the other. The same mistake is now being done with N-LCA which whole point is, to use an indigenous carrier fighter, on an indigenous carrier. The result is, that LCA development gets more delayed, because now we have to take care of the requirements of IAF AND IN, all this on a light fighter, that never was intended to be more than a low end addition. Thankfully IN ordered more Mig 29Ks, so they won't be dependent on N-LCA deliveries to use IAC1.

 

[Dillinger]

please don't make such sweeping statements.

china is miles ahead of indiain any sector except services like IT(english benefits us)
and stop laughing at j-10........they have put all their own systems including weapons ,radar,ew...................all except the engine which they will develop soon enough.

we have made nothing as far as aircrafts are concerned

most of the important sub-systems of tejas are imported and same is with dhruv with 90% imported maal

where are we in computer hardware???
answer---nowhere,,,we can't make a single relevant chip of any architecture whether its arm or x86
and then look at china with companies like mediatek,huawei,oppo,lenovo

we have nothing even remotely comparable

Now you have hit something right. This is where a dedicated focus on the industrial base of a nation pays-off. With a woefully small electronics sector in-country we end up lagging behind in many core areas with a few islands of excellence populating a sea of mediocrity and successful ventures having to build their own supplier chain and captive labs/infra from the ground up.

 

[he-man]

We couldn't do it back then, but unless you think a LPI radar altimeter and CM avionics appeared in our laps out of no-where you'll have to re-think your statement. Its not what you contribute to the JV but what you get out of it that matters..when we sat down with Edgewood for mission avionics we didn't know squat diddle about that stuff but today you have successfully integrated products like OSMAC...the list is long and will require another page length post. So as always do your research.

i am sorry,,,the way i see it we are nowhere near all these foreign counterparts.
if we were we would have made something......................did we??

we made

1)akash- pardon me but what do u expect to do with a surface to air missile of 25 km??
2)tejas--- woefully short on all parameters and majority of stuff in foreign
3)dhruv---everything important from engine to ew is foreign
4)arjun----foreign...........even tracks are german
5)s band awacs----------tats pretty good
6)drdo mmr radar---------non starter
7)drdo aesa(aircrafts-----non starter
8)tarang rwr------------------not good enough for even tejas

the list goes on

we haven't developed a single uav and look at iran!! 

Now you have hit something right. This is where a dedicated focus on the industrial base of a nation pays-off. With a woefully small electronics sector in-country we end up lagging behind in many core areas with a few islands of excellence populating a sea of mediocrity and successful ventures having to build their own supplier chain and captive labs/infra from the ground up.

1)just give land to intel or AMD to set up plants
2)salary structure should be improved(right now u cannot pay any govt imployee more than secretary rank!!)
3)privatise these behemoths
4)end reservations in technical institutes
5)set up more r and d centres

just do this and in 5 years we can kick israel's ***

 

[Dillinger]

i am sorry,,,the way i see it we are nowhere near all these foreign counterparts.
if we were we would have made something......................did we??

we made

1)akash- pardon me but what do u expect to do with a surface to air missile of 25 km??
2)tejas--- woefully short on all parameters and majority of stuff in foreign
3)dhruv---everything important from engine to ew is foreign
4)arjun----foreign...........even tracks are german
5)s band awacs----------tats pretty good
6)drdo mmr radar---------non starter
7)drdo aesa(aircrafts-----non starter
8)tarang rwr------------------not good enough for even tejas

the list goes on

we haven't developed a single uav and look at iran!!

What good is the Akash- hmm...sustained all the way to the target propulsion and the sensor complex built around the missile or do you think that the back-end of radars like the S-band LSTAR appeared out of nowhere.

Tejas is a contentious issue and will require far too long a post.

Who told you that the tarang is not good enough, PSK perhaps, he's been singing that song for a very long time.

I am going to have to start furnishing technical details again...but I will do that once you have pin-pointed the technical errors you have made in your previous posts in this thread and rectified them. 

i am sorry,,,the way i see it we are nowhere near all these foreign counterparts.
if we were we would have made something......................did we??

we made

1)akash- pardon me but what do u expect to do with a surface to air missile of 25 km??
2)tejas--- woefully short on all parameters and majority of stuff in foreign
3)dhruv---everything important from engine to ew is foreign
4)arjun----foreign...........even tracks are german
5)s band awacs----------tats pretty good
6)drdo mmr radar---------non starter
7)drdo aesa(aircrafts-----non starter
8)tarang rwr------------------not good enough for even tejas

the list goes on

we haven't developed a single uav and look at iran!! 


1)just give land to intel or AMD to set up plants
2)salary structure should be improved(right now u cannot pay any govt imployee more than secretary rank!!)
3)privatise these behemoths
4)end reservations in technical institutes
5)set up more r and d centres

just do this and in 5 years we can kick israel's ***

Sounds very simple, care to furnish it with details and pin-point where the meat of the problems causing inefficiency and a whole host of issues lies along with possible mitigation.

 

[sancho]

we can only put money hats it,,,we can't produce a good mmr on our own and u want jv in rafale upgrade??
thats wishful thinking
the problem is we have nothing to offer in a jv

Which is wrong as well, eventhough we failed on core developments like engine or radar, we did pretty good in materials, coatings, EW sensors and other avionics. We already fit Indian parts in many Russian fighters and I wouldn't be surprised if we add Indian parts to M2K and Rafale too, UV MAWS or indigenous displays for example, which we btw get through JVs with foreign companies!

 

[he-man]

i stand

What good is the Akash- hmm...sustained all the way to the target propulsion and the sensor complex built around the missile or do you think that the back-end of radars like the S-band LSTAR appeared out of nowhere.

Tejas is a contentious issue and will require far too long a post.

Who told you that the tarang is not good enough, PSK perhaps, he's been singing that song for a very long time.

I am going to have to start furnishing technical details again...but I will do that once you have pin-pointed the technical errors you have made in your previous posts in this thread and rectified them.

i don't follow ps gupta

if these systems were good we would have put them in mig or sukhoi.do we??no

secondly i stand by my akash sam............its simply not good enough for a land version and too heavy for a naval version!!

now armed forces have pooled in the orders under govt pressure to fill psu coffers,,,,what can i do??

 

[Dillinger]

i stand


i don't follow ps gupta

if these systems were good we would have put them in mig or sukhoi.do we??no

secondly i stand by my akash sam............its simply not good enough for a land version and too heavy for a naval version!!

now armed forces have pooled in the orders under govt pressure to fill psu coffers,,,,what can i do??

What makes you think that the tarang is not on the Sukhoi? This is exactly why I had asked you to educate yourself regarding the sub-systems of an EW suite, had you done so then you would be able to ascertain what went on the MKI and what didn't.

You stand by your statement, good, furnish the details. I am sure you can return the favor after I had to detail the difference between a SPJ and an EW suite yesterday with the relevant techniques and functions listed out and explained.

 

[he-man]

Which is wrong as well, eventhough we failed on core developments like engine or radar, we did pretty good in materials, coatings, EW sensors and other avionics. We already fit Indian parts in many Russian fighters and I wouldn't be surprised if we add Indian parts to M2K and Rafale too, UV MAWS or indigenous displays for example, which we btw get through JVs with foreign companies!

see i made a whole thread on mig-29k and kub fittings

there is zero indian equipment in those........of any importance

jammers etc are mixture of israel,italy and ukraine

our maws are not even put in dhruv helicopter where we have signed up for saab systems??

yes materials and coatings is fine but thats hardly pathbreaking

even mfd's etc are not 100 percent indian,,they have jv with elbit................lol 

What makes you think that the tarang is not on the Sukhoi? This is exactly why I had asked you to educate yourself regarding the sub-systems of an EW suite, had you done so then you would be able to ascertain what went on the MKI and what didn't.

all right i may be one off..............still majority of points stand

 

[Dillinger]

see i made a whole thread on mig-29k and kub fittings

there is zero indian equipment in those........of any importance

jammers etc are mixture of israel,italy and ukraine

our maws are not even put in dhruv helicopter where we have signed up for saab systems??

yes materials and coatings is fine but thats hardly pathbreaking

even mfd's etc are not 100 percent indian,,they have jv with elbit................lol 

all right i may be one off..............still majority of points stand

Nope, I am just too tired to bite in and provide the details and the spin-offs from these projects. It is tedious- suffice to say that without the radar complex which commands the Akash you would not have a LSTAR today..without the Tejas you would not have accrued detailed knowledge and validation of digital FBW- by no means small things...the details are just far too vast and that is why I urge you often to look them up.