My problem with Rafale, lets start with Radar

[Dillinger]

do u have any knowledge of khibini ew suite of su-35??

Some, though the Knirti SAP system caught my eye over the 35er's config..

 

[he-man]

Some, though the Knirti SAP system caught my eye over the 35er's config..

thats an old news

 

[Dillinger]

thats an old news

The SAP-518s are robust and rather compact- perfect for embedding into a LO AC unlike bulkier under wing or carriage mounted pods...

 

[he-man]

The SAP-518s are robust and rather compact- perfect for embedding into a LO AC unlike bulkier under wing or carriage mounted pods...

where are the pakfa jammers??

 

[Dillinger]

where are the pakfa jammers??

Embedded into the fuselage itself and not wing tip mounted- what their performance and exact placement will be I cannot tell atm..

 

[he-man]

Embedded into the fuselage itself and not wing tip mounted- what their performance and exact placement will be I cannot tell atm..

seems plausible

 

[sancho]

@sancho will be best person to tell us why Rafale is equally important as fgfa.

You mean apart from the fact that it might be half as costly to operate? Maybe the fact that it's a fully developed and proven plattform, that offers currently the best performance of all available 4.5th gen fighters, especially wrt to air defence and strike, where IAF is lacking currently. Not to mention that one of the keys of MMRCA was, to create industrial returns in form of offsets and ToT. The latter is available through FGFA as well, but the earlier isn't. One only has to look at the ammount of JVs the MMRCA has created with all of the contenders and Indian companies over the years, far before any shortlisting or final selection happened and all the negotiations that currently are going on with the French are going to the same direction.
The whole idea of switching from MRCA to MMRCA was not more advanced fighters (IAF wanted a fast replacement with M2K-5s), but the chance to get more companies into the competition and create more industrial turnover for India! So ignoring this fact and simply sticking to some populistic points like he-man tries here hardly makes sense.
The fact remains, for IAFs requirements Rafale was the best choice with the best value of costs and capability, just like it offers the best technical level and future potential of all MMRCAs.
Not to mention that the industrial package of ToT and offsets of the French is always regarded to be among the best, since they have less problems to provide the techs we want, unlike other western countries (guess why we several licence productions, JVs with them on helicopters, fighters, engines, or subs, or why they now even will co-develop a SAM system based on ToT?).
How fast the deal is signed and how fast we get the first squad mainly remains on the final negotiations and what we want (higher number of Rafales produced in France = faster induction into IAF to counter falling squadron numbers).

 

[anant_s]

Not to mention that one of the keys of MMRCA was, to create industrial returns in form of offsets and ToT. The latter is available through FGFA as well, but the earlier isn't. One only has to look at the ammount of JVs the MMRCA has created with all of the contenders and Indian companies over the years, far before any shortlisting or final selection happened and all the negotiations that currently are going on with the French are going to the same direction.

That sums up it all doesn't it. very simply put with FGFA project moving on (albeit a little slowly), if all goes well and if Indian industry is able to absorb the benefits from offset clauses, we'll appreciate the decisions taken by IAF today in decade from now. I suppose it is a real smart move by not keeping all our eggs in one basket.

 

[Dillinger]

You mean apart from the fact that it might be half as costly to operate? Maybe the fact that it's a fully developed and proven plattform, that offers currently the best performance of all available 4.5th gen fighters, especially wrt to air defence and strike, where IAF is lacking currently. Not to mention that one of the keys of MMRCA was, to create industrial returns in form of offsets and ToT. The latter is available through FGFA as well, but the earlier isn't. One only has to look at the ammount of JVs the MMRCA has created with all of the contenders and Indian companies over the years, far before any shortlisting or final selection happened and all the negotiations that currently are going on with the French are going to the same direction.
The whole idea of switching from MRCA to MMRCA was not more advanced fighters (IAF wanted a fast replacement with M2K-5s), but the chance to get more companies into the competition and create more industrial turnover for India! So ignoring this fact and simply sticking to some populistic points like he-man tries here hardly makes sense.
The fact remains, for IAFs requirements Rafale was the best choice with the best value of costs and capability, just like it offers the best technical level and future potential of all MMRCAs.
Not to mention that the industrial package of ToT and offsets of the French is always regarded to be among the best, since they have less problems to provide the techs we want, unlike other western countries (guess why we several licence productions, JVs with them on helicopters, fighters, engines, or subs, or why they now even will co-develop a SAM system based on ToT?).

How fast the deal is signed and how fast we get the first squad mainly remains on the final negotiations and what we want (higher number of Rafales produced in France = faster induction into IAF to counter falling squadron numbers).

Ideally there should have been a higher quantum of fighters produced in France with the MRO facilities and rotables coming up in country. Let us be frank, license manufacturing will not lead to any ToT and the only "ToT" any country will part with is M-ToT which will allow seamless MRO in country. That is what we should have opted for. Screw driver giri is a good source of revenue for the MoD (with the DPSUs being owned by the MoD and all) but it will not provide the know how or the know why one requires.

Optimal usage of funds would dictate the above (to ensure fleet availability) while the substantial savings should have been retrenched into in-country R&D..but the lords deemed it fit to not give the babus any sense...

 

[he-man]

Ideally there should have been a higher quantum of fighters produced in France with the MRO facilities and rotables coming up in country. Let us be frank, license manufacturing will not lead to any ToT and the only "ToT" any country will part with is M-ToT which will allow seamless MRO in country. That is what we should have opted for. Screw driver giri is a good source of revenue for the MoD (with the DPSUs being owned by the MoD and all) but it will not provide the know how or the know why one requires.

Optimal usage of funds would dictate the above (to ensure fleet availability) while the substantial savings should have been retrenched into in-country R&D..but the lords deemed it fit to not give the babus any sense...

yes thats what i am talking about

we gain nothing from tot actually,,hal is already an expert in screwdriver job

 

[GURU DUTT]

yes thats what i am talking about

we gain nothing from tot actually,,hal is already an expert in screwdriver job

all you get after this so called complete TOT on this MMRCA contract is that 60 odd palnes will be made in francer entierli and rest will be assembelled in india with frencgh semi knocked down kits but will have a facility of complete and comprehensive ower hauling facility and spaers will be manufactures mostli in india after the intial diliveries but critical components will onli be french athurity

 

[he-man]

india should have just gone chinese way..........................we would have been better served that way.at least they are doing everything on their own and if the things went like they are,they will have enough ammunition in 15-20 years to even challenge usa.

 

[sancho]

Ideally there should have been a higher quantum of fighters produced in France with the MRO facilities and rotables coming up in country. Let us be frank, license manufacturing will not lead to any ToT and the only "ToT" any country will part with is M-ToT which will allow seamless MRO in country.

Depending on what kind and how much ToT you get. It should be clear that we benefit far more when BEL can build RBE AESA with full ToT and full source codes provided, than when HAL produces wings and airframe parts of the Super Hornet with ToT. Both counted as transfer of technology, which is why Boeing said they fulfilled the ToT requirements of the RFP by ammount, but of totally useless parts. And that is the difference we wanted through the M-MRCA, not only getting ToT of basic parts, but getting critical ToT, that we didn't get in the past. M-MRCA and the new co-developments are true boosts in case of ToT compared to anything we got in the past, because we are in much better positions to negotiate.

Personally, I would offer not only an increase of the order, but that Dassault produces the first 3 squads, roughly 50 fighters alone and in return we team up with them for the development of a more credible F3R upgrade which then could be produced in India for a big part. Teaming up for an upgraded IRST channel of FSO for example, or the PDL NG targeting pod, a possible Kaveri/Snecma engine, or even a Maitri / MICA upgrade, all things that would make the Rafale more capable and boost our industrial capabilities at the same time.
So the MMRCA deal in general and the selection of Rafale has a lot of potential for India, we now have to negotiate to get the best out of it and that's what we see currently.

 

[Dillinger]

Depending on what kind and how much ToT you get. It should be clear that we benefit far more when BEL can build RBE AESA with full ToT and full source codes provided, than when HAL produces wings and airframe parts of the Super Hornet with ToT. Both counted as transfer of technology, which is why Boeing said they fulfilled the ToT requirements of the RFP by ammount, but of totally useless parts. And that is the difference we wanted through the M-MRCA, not only getting ToT of basic parts, but getting critical ToT, that we didn't get in the past. M-MRCA and the new co-developments are true boosts in case of ToT compared to anything we got in the past, because we are in much better positions to negotiate.

Personally, I would offer not only an increase of the order, but that Dassault produces the first 3 squads, roughly 50 fighters alone and in return we team up with them for the development of a more credible F3R upgrade which then could be produced in India for a big part. Teaming up for an upgraded IRST channel of FSO for example, or the PDL NG targeting pod, a possible Kaveri/Snecma engine, or even a Maitri / MICA upgrade, all things that would make the Rafale more capable and boost our industrial capabilities at the same time.
So the MMRCA deal in general and the selection of Rafale has a lot of potential for India, we now have to negotiate to get the best out of it and that's what we see currently.

You vastly overestimate the MoD and its babus. A sad Sancho you shall be if you ever actually had to associate with them....trust me.

 

[he-man]

You vastly overestimate the MoD and its babus. A sad Sancho you shall be if you ever actually had to associate with them....trust me.

what if i had to interact with them??

i am sure i will shoot all of them 

Depending on what kind and how much ToT you get. It should be clear that we benefit far more when BEL can build RBE AESA with full ToT and full source codes provided, than when HAL produces wings and airframe parts of the Super Hornet with ToT. Both counted as transfer of technology, which is why Boeing said they fulfilled the ToT requirements of the RFP by ammount, but of totally useless parts. And that is the difference we wanted through the M-MRCA, not only getting ToT of basic parts, but getting critical ToT, that we didn't get in the past. M-MRCA and the new co-developments are true boosts in case of ToT compared to anything we got in the past, because we are in much better positions to negotiate.

Personally, I would offer not only an increase of the order, but that Dassault produces the first 3 squads, roughly 50 fighters alone and in return we team up with them for the development of a more credible F3R upgrade which then could be produced in India for a big part. Teaming up for an upgraded IRST channel of FSO for example, or the PDL NG targeting pod, a possible Kaveri/Snecma engine, or even a Maitri / MICA upgrade, all things that would make the Rafale more capable and boost our industrial capabilities at the same time.
So the MMRCA deal in general and the selection of Rafale has a lot of potential for India, we now have to negotiate to get the best out of it and that's what we see currently.

the problem is we have nothing to offer in a jv

zero,zilch................aanda

we can only put money hats it,,,we can't produce a good mmr on our own and u want jv in rafale upgrade??
thats wishful thinking