More Propaganda: ISI behind 26/11, Indian embassy bombing

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The proofs and evidences of complicity have been shared with the Pakistani counterparts. They have been called too sensitive to be shared in the public domain, so of course it stands as nothing more than propaganda on PDF.

The BBC, even if it did get its hands on the proofs, will not share them in its documentary for the same reasons. That is why throughout the documentary only the circumstantial evidences and the consequences of those circumstances have been talked about.

That is utter nonsense, as I have already pointed out - if the the US/India can 'share proof and evidence' with the alleged 'guilty party', then the argument of 'too sensitive to be shared in the public domain' argument is completely useless. The entire point behind 'too sensitive to share in the public domain' is that one does not want to reveal their sources and methodology to the 'opponent/guilty party', but in this case apparently the 'guilty party' (Pakistan) has been informed already, so there is no justification left for 'not sharing in the public domain'.

Direct allegations come only from Bruce Reidel. So if we discount what he has talked or 'alleged', then we also have the statements of Asst. Sec of Defense saying that deliberate non-compliance from Pakistani side resulted in loss of lives to the NATO and US troops and tactical advantages to the Taliban. For example, if you look at the piece investigating the circumstances that led to the death of Pat Tillman discussed in the first part of the documentary, then you will see it was the unexpected no-go from Pakistani side that resulted in the US troops killing their own man.

Again, all we have are allegations, speculation and conspiracy theories, and the US has a strong motive for disseminating this propaganda because in an attempt to pressure Pakistan.

The documentary is more or less about sifting through the circumstances that one after another keep pointing at ISI's complicity with the Taliban in attacking the NATO troops and protecting the Taliban.

The documentary is based entirely on heresay and speculation and some nonsensical claims about 'ISI officers being identified at training camps through 'ISI uniforms''. Perhaps you can enlighten us about what an 'ISI uniform or ID tag' looks like, because AFAIK, there isn't one.

The conclusion is for the people to derive - It is common sense that so many of all the circumstances pointing toward the ISI's complicity are not coincidental: That's what people are going to think, and how right or wrong they are in that, we have our own perceptions.

Most people listening, reading and watching the American media and US officials in the runup to the Iraq war concluded pretty strongly that Saddam had WMD's and was supporting terrorists and AQ. Facts, opinion and conspiracy theories can spun multiple ways and presented to make them appear 'logical and reasonable' to an audience.

The fact of the matter remains that many of the claims made by alleged Taliban leaders are absurd and outright wrong (such as ISI uniforms and generals walking around training camps) and unsubstantiated.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The fact is Pakistan is a country that cannot be trusted. Not just by India but its own allies. Pakistan cannot get away from the "propaganda" if that is what you choose to call. On PDF you can call it your grand mother's story but you know that is not going to change anything. The PDF members who make rules themselves break it by changing the title of threads to what suits them but who cares ?

Actually the facts are, as made clear repeatedly on this thread, that there is no credible evidence to support the claims against the ISI/PA by the US and India. You can choose to ignore responding to this as much as you like through meaningless rhetoric, but the facts don't change.

And given the lack of credible evidence supporting the allegations against Pakistan, what exactly do you find wrong with the thread title?

 

[SMC]

^ Of course the typical argument that bharatis use is that 'the whole world is saying that' and stuff along those lines. Of course it's just a few countries in the west and bharat itself, not the whole world who's saying that. And apart from that, I find them saying things like that funny because these guys talk a lot about logic, rationality, sense, but with statements like that, all such things go out of the windows. Clearly they haven't heard of things like 'argumentum ad populum', which is a core fallacy. Clearly they don't remember how many countries accused Iraq of having WMDs, etc. Clear contradiction of their so-called 'logic'.

These guys will believe what they want to believe. The problem is that they attack others for making accusations without evidence but not much long after, they're accusing others without evidence.

 

[Spitfighter]

Actually the facts are, as made clear repeatedly on this thread, that there is no credible evidence to support the claims against the ISI/PA by the US and India. You can choose to ignore responding to this as much as you like through meaningless rhetoric, but the facts don't change.

And given the lack of credible evidence supporting the allegations against Pakistan, what exactly do you find wrong with the thread title?

I see no reason why a nuclear state with the 7th largest army on the planet can't move against a bunch of a cave dwelling bigots. I mean half of the threads on here are about Pakistan taking on India!

Pakistani inaction is indicative of complicity, its as simple as that. Perhaps this will put things into perspective for you:

Truce in Pakistan May Mean Leeway for Taliban - NYTimes.com

You can twist it anyway you like, but from Pakistan's standpoint harboring the Taliban makes sense. I simply can't see why covertly supporting the Taliban isn't in Pakistan's national interest but maybe you could enlighten me.

Ironically, not too long ago you were busy arguing that Pakistan's differences with India are to blame for any 'perceived inaction' but now everything is suddenly propaganda. It makes sense though, since the world no longer tolerates terrorism as an instrument of state policy.

The bottom line here is quite simple. Pakistan is isolating itself. There's a reason nobody cared enough to donate anything to your flood victims. I think we can all agree public opinion has shifted firmly against the Pakistani state. Plausible deniability can't last forever.

 

[SMC]

^ Whether or not it makes sense for Pakistan to do what you say is another thing, but you need proof to support such claims.

As far as Pakistan not going after Haqqanis and Taliban, what about US not going after TTP and BLA in Eastern Afghanistan?

 

[Spitfighter]

^ Whether or not it makes sense for Pakistan to do what you say is another thing, but you need proof to support such claims.

As far as Pakistan not going after Haqqanis and Taliban, what about US not going after TTP and BLA in Eastern Afghanistan?

So lets see here then...

A motive exists, there's plenty of circumstantial evidence (inaction on the ground), we have a previous record that spans decades and finally we have several eye-witness reports from the ISAF (30 nations), GoA, GoI, Russia and in one instance the PRC.

So why is that you guys have such a hard time digesting such news? Pakistan supported an insurgency in Afghanistan and Kashmir for decades. Madrassas have 'educated' an entire generation of your population. The PA/GoP won't dare question the mullahs. People are openly assassinated by extremists and then showered with rose petals. Is it so hard to believe that Pakistan has no choice but to side with these people? What else are you going to do? Fight a civil war or keep you options open in India and Afghanistan?

This is an internet board after all, what difference would it make if one admitted to what's basically an open secret? Such things aren't lost on government officials and people in positions of power. I find it disingenuous when you ask for 'proof', what are you expecting, official intelligence from the CIA or MI6? You remember Sharif asking for proof in 1999 and all the news reports at the time..lol. We're people with like-minded interests (as far as geo-politics goes) which is why we're here. We can only discern so much from the resources at our disposal, you've been here for 6 years so you know what I'm talking about. Pakistan has every reason in the world to do what it does. All we can do as ordinary people is realize that sh*t's going to get real if another 9/11 goes down.

If every argument was dismissed on technicalities, we'd have nothing to talk about. I haven't seen anyone land on the moon, I don't think there are poor people in India and I don't think they poop on the streets. Why should I? the pictures are photo shopped, I haven't seen it and the GoI hasn't told me anything. If they did, who's to say they aren't Bangladeshi stooges? Does Africa even exist?

Coming back to your post, American drones can't operate over Baluchistan at the moment. If they could, they'd start with the Taliban and work their way down to the BLA. America doesn't need to appease India, they'd wipe out Indian assets if it furthered their goals in Afghanistan. India needs the states FAR more than the states needs India, its simply a question of priorities.

At times I wonder if you guys agree but tend to deny such reports just to tick us off. Sounds like some of you do it because you think you're defending your nation.

 

[jayron]

At times I wonder if you guys agree but tend to deny such reports just to tick us off. Sounds like some of you do it because you think you're defending your nation.

Don't we all do it? The only difference is they are defending the indefensible. So they end up looking like liars or idiots. changing the title of the thread in PDF my satisfy the small ego's of Pakistanis here. But it does not change the world's perception of Pakistan.

 

[Hulk]

GOP has already accepted that 26/11 was planned in Pakistan and there are pakistani's behind the bars in Pakistan. There are some inane people who just do not want to accept, their is no point wasting time to explain to them.

The bottomline is they already know the truth, you cannot wakeup someone who is pretending to sleep.

 

[SMC]

A motive exists

So it does for US and Bharat as well.

there's plenty of circumstantial evidence (inaction on the ground)

Same could be said about US.

we have a previous record that spans decades and finally we have several eye-witness reports from the ISAF (30 nations), GoA, GoI, Russia and in one instance the PRC.

Do explain. What eye-witness reports are you talking about?

So why is that you guys have such a hard time digesting such news?

Why do have such a hard time digesting that US and Bharat support TTP and BLA? No evidence? Well guess what? The same's true for this case.

Pakistan supported an insurgency in Afghanistan and Kashmir for decades.

US did similar. How does the above suggest Pakistan is supporting Taliban or Haqqani NOW?

Madrassas have 'educated' an entire generation of your population. The PA/GoP won't dare question the mullahs. People are openly assassinated by extremists and then showered with rose petals. Is it so hard to believe that Pakistan has no choice but to side with these people? What else are you going to do? Fight a civil war or keep you options open in India and Afghanistan?

More rhetoric and nothing relevant. Please post something relevant.

This is an internet board after all, what difference would it make if one admitted to what's basically an open secret?

Rather a conspiracy theory, a source of paranoia, delusion, etc.

I find it disingenuous when you ask for 'proof', what are you expecting, official intelligence from the CIA or MI6?

What do you expect when you ask for proof from Pakistan regarding allegations against RAW?

This is too funny really. I hope you see how ridiculous your 'point' is.

You remember Sharif asking for proof in 1999 and all the news reports at the time..lol. We're people with like-minded interests (as far as geo-politics goes) which is why we're here. We can only discern so much from the resources at our disposal, you've been here for 6 years so you know what I'm talking about. Pakistan has every reason in the world to do what it does. All we can do as ordinary people is realize that sh*t's going to get real if another 9/11 goes down.

So nothing relevant again.

If every argument was dismissed on technicalities, we'd have nothing to talk about. I haven't seen anyone land on the moon, I don't think there are poor people in India and I don't think they poop on the streets. Why should I? the pictures are photo shopped, I haven't seen it and the GoI hasn't told me anything. If they did, who's to say they aren't Bangladeshi stooges? Does Africa even exist?

Are you serious? So there's absolutely no evidence against Pakistan, but this is your argument. I am just wondering, why didn't you think of this when Bharat or US is accused?

Coming back to your post, American drones can't operate over Baluchistan at the moment. If they could, they'd start with the Taliban and work their way down to the BLA. America doesn't need to appease India, they'd wipe out Indian assets if it furthered their goals in Afghanistan. India needs the states FAR more than the states needs India, its simply a question of priorities.

Dude, I am talking about US not attacking BLA or TTP that are IN AFGHANISTAN.

At times I wonder if you guys agree but tend to deny such reports just to tick us off. Sounds like some of you do it because you think you're defending your nation.

Why would I agree with such conspiracy theories that are backed by no evidence? Isn't it funny that you guys are here accusing others without evidence yet get ticked off when someone accuses you or others without evidence?

---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------

GOP has already accepted that 26/11 was planned in Pakistan and there are pakistani's behind the bars in Pakistan. There are some inane people who just do not want to accept, their is no point wasting time to explain to them.

The bottomline is they already know the truth, you cannot wakeup someone who is pretending to sleep.

And how is that relevant to all of this? Did they accept they're supporting Taliban and/or Haqqani?

Btw, when you say there are some people who do not want to accept, you should be referring to yourself, because no matter how much we explain that all these stories are backed by no evidence, you still do not accept that these stories are lies. So your point aptly applies to yourself.

 

[jayron]

And how is that relevant to all of this? Did they accept they're supporting Taliban and/or Haqqani?

Btw, when you say there are some people who do not want to accept, you should be referring to yourself, because no matter how much we explain that all these stories are backed by no evidence, you still do not accept that these stories are lies. So your point aptly applies to yourself.

This thread is about ISI's role in 26/11 not Taliban or Haqqani.

 

[SMC]

Spitfighter is talking about Taliban though. Nevertheless, what I said can be applied to accusations regarding ISI's role in 26/11 as well.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

GOP has already accepted that 26/11 was planned in Pakistan and there are pakistani's behind the bars in Pakistan. There are some inane people who just do not want to accept, their is no point wasting time to explain to them.

The bottomline is they already know the truth, you cannot wakeup someone who is pretending to sleep.

Arguing that 'Pakistanis were behind the Mumbai attacks and it was planned in Pakistan' is different from arguing that 'the PA/ISI were complicit in planning and perpetrating the Mumbai attacks'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I see no reason why a nuclear state with the 7th largest army on the planet can't move against a bunch of a cave dwelling bigots. I mean half of the threads on here are about Pakistan taking on India!

Pakistani inaction is indicative of complicity, its as simple as that. Perhaps this will put things into perspective for you:

Truce in Pakistan May Mean Leeway for Taliban - NYTimes.com

You can twist it anyway you like, but from Pakistan's standpoint harboring the Taliban makes sense. I simply can't see why covertly supporting the Taliban isn't in Pakistan's national interest but maybe you could enlighten me.

Ironically, not too long ago you were busy arguing that Pakistan's differences with India are to blame for any 'perceived inaction' but now everything is suddenly propaganda. It makes sense though, since the world no longer tolerates terrorism as an instrument of state policy.

The bottom line here is quite simple. Pakistan is isolating itself. There's a reason nobody cared enough to donate anything to your flood victims. I think we can all agree public opinion has shifted firmly against the Pakistani state. Plausible deniability can't last forever.

Again, the reasons behind the lack of a military operation in NW have been discussed several times in several threads - please read through them and respond to the arguments made there.

And also explain to us why the worlds richest, largest and most advanced economies and militaries are 'not moving against a bunch of cave dwellers in Eastern Afghanistan', from where they repeatedly launch attacks into Pakistan?

Back to the topic, where in any of the above is there 'credible evidence of the ISI/PA supporting the attacks in Kabul and Mumbai'? You lot appear to want to talk about everything under the sun save for answering the questions regarding any actual credible evidence substantiating the allegations against Pakistan.

---------- Post added at 08:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 AM ----------

This thread is about ISI's role in 26/11 not Taliban or Haqqani.

The thread also talks about the Indian Embassy bombing as well as the accusations made in the Atlantic article, the Haqqanis and Taliban angle is therefore a valid one to argue as well.

 

[Solomon2]

Arguing that 'Pakistanis were behind the Mumbai attacks and it was planned in Pakistan' is different from arguing that 'the PA/ISI were complicit in planning and perpetrating the Mumbai attacks'.

Do you actually believe this? I don't think so. Convince me.

 

[ramu]

Back to the topic, where in any of the above is there 'credible evidence of the ISI/PA supporting the attacks in Kabul and Mumbai'?

Yes. We have discussed Mumbai enough. If we talk Kasab or David Headley that becomes non credible. so I dont want to repeat it.
Take this for evidence : Intercepts where individuals (identified) of the rank of Major (working in ISI) in conversation with Haqqani group just before launching an attack in Kabul. Giving last minute tips and guidance on how to execute the attack.