Major Changes Ahead on JF-17 Block-3

[Ray_of_Hope]

AESA Radar is most important radar
US will not easily give it to us
Moreover we need AESA Radar in our fleet of F-16
Without AESA F-16 is not good enough

We dont need AESA for F16 but for JF17.
We cant just put an AESA radar in F16 without manufacturers approval.Moreover there are many technicalities involved with putting an AESA on a jet.

 

[amardeep mishra]

This R&D is for those who have FREE TIME----or when you have secured your assets with the right aircraft and then you can develop these kind of aircraft.

So---400 million in development of this aircraft

Hi @MastanKhan !

While reading this thread i ran into your comments and i would like to cast some lights on this. Firstly I would like to point out that your view on R&D isnt entirely correct.For a country like pakistan that wish to maintain a 26 squadron strength airforce indigenous research is mandatory if they want to be free from external control. Your second sentence implies a perpetual dependence on foreign aircraft suppliers - because indigenous research wont kick off in a big way untill they have the luxury of sourcing aircrafts from outside. Aircraft design and development is a real pain in the a*se job- I mean look at LCA,even after having spent close to $2.4bn on LCA project,it still is no where close to rafale(the fighter IAF so passionately wants). One cant hope to design a world class fighter in a single go specially if the local industry isnt matured enough.It is inherently an iterative process something like designing a control system to a certain set of specifications for a process control application- obviously the technical complexity involved in aircaft design is many leagues higher than simple control system design!
Couple of folks who are into aerospace would understand the wealth of research data such project generates- one that is closely guarded by even closest of countries! For instance i will quote couple of examples from flight mechanics and control-
Countries who develop fighter jets dont really share various data for instance variation of angle of attack,yaw rate,roll rate,pitch angle with elevator deflection (De). They also dont share Cx(alpha),Cy(alpha),Cz(alpha) etc(where C(alpha) denotes C as a function of alpha) because once you have these data,you can linearize the system matrix and analyze stability of the aircraft around various equilibrium points(trimmed flight conditions).
One such very famous algorithm is popularly known as BIFURCATION ANALYSIS!
This is also the first step towards designing various control laws,stability augmentation systems etc for that respective aircraft! So a country that is blessed with the data can literally design the control law PROVIDED they have requisite hardware available(mission computer,flight actuators,sensors etc)- like how china did with su-27s and probably lavi!
Now i dont really know if pakistan has access to all the aerodynamic data for jf-17 that were produced in chinese wind tunnel tests. Even if lets say china was generous enough and provided the aerodynamic data, pakistan would still require critical flight actuators/sensors- that are not being manufactured in pakistan. I have just talked about he control aspect of the fighter- there are structural,propulsion issues that i havent even touched!
My point is,has the jf-17 venture enabled pakistani industry to undertake a research and development program of a new generation of fighters all by themselves?If the answer is yes then definitely those $400mn were well spent,but if it is no- then pakistan needs to do a LOT in terms of aerospace research!

 

[Pindi Boy]

Pakistan should integrate its JF 17 THUNDER fleet with CX-1 Super-Sonic cruise missiles.Defence analysts say Chinese CX-1 is better than Russian made BrahMos missile which is joint venture of Russia and India.India is ready to test BrahMos missile from modified Su-30MKI in next year.

Why CX-1 is better than Russian BrahMos??

-Wang Hongpo, the chief designer of the CX-1 missile said the CX-1 is a completely new design. Wang said it has different wings, aerodynamic guidance and jet vane.CX-1 shares many similar characteristics with the BrahMos. Sina Military Network noted that the CX-1 flies faster than the Indian missile. It is capable of reaching a speed of Mach 3 at 17,000 meters, whereas the BrahMos can only reach Mach 2.6 at an altitude of 14,000 meters.
-Launched against targets in low altitude, the speed of the CX-1 is Mach 2.3., while the Russian-built P-800 Oniks on which the BrahMos is designed can only reach Mach 2.

Why CX-1 should be the the main weapon of JF 17 Thunder Block-III.

-India has completed the work on BrahMos missile which will test from Upgraded Sukhoi Su-30MKI aircraft in next year.Pakistan can counter this Indian project with CX-1 which will be better option to make Thunder more deadliest for enemies.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi @MastanKhan !

While reading this thread i ran into your comments and i would like to cast some lights on this. Firstly I would like to point out that your view on R&D isnt entirely correct.For a country like pakistan that wish to maintain a 26 squadron strength airforce indigenous research is mandatory if they want to be free from external control. Your second sentence implies a perpetual dependence on foreign aircraft suppliers - because indigenous research wont kick off in a big way untill they have the luxury of sourcing aircrafts from outside. Aircraft design and development is a real pain in the a*se job- I mean look at LCA,even after having spent close to $2.4bn on LCA project,it still is no where close to rafale(the fighter IAF so passionately wants). One cant hope to design a world class fighter in a single go specially if the local industry isnt matured enough.It is inherently an iterative process something like designing a control system to a certain set of specifications for a process control application- obviously the technical complexity involved in aircaft design is many leagues higher than simple control system design!
Couple of folks who are into aerospace would understand the wealth of research data such project generates- one that is closely guarded by even closest of countries! For instance i will quote couple of examples from flight mechanics and control-
Countries who develop fighter jets dont really share various data for instance variation of angle of attack,yaw rate,roll rate,pitch angle with elevator deflection (De). They also dont share Cx(alpha),Cy(alpha),Cz(alpha) etc(where C(alpha) denotes C as a function of alpha) because once you have these data,you can linearize the system matrix and analyze stability of the aircraft around various equilibrium points(trimmed flight conditions).
One such very famous algorithm is popularly known as BIFURCATION ANALYSIS!
This is also the first step towards designing various control laws,stability augmentation systems etc for that respective aircraft! So a country that is blessed with the data can literally design the control law PROVIDED they have requisite hardware available(mission computer,flight actuators,sensors etc)- like how china did with su-27s and probably lavi!
Now i dont really know if pakistan has access to all the aerodynamic data for jf-17 that were produced in chinese wind tunnel tests. Even if lets say china was generous enough and provided the aerodynamic data, pakistan would still require critical flight actuators/sensors- that are not being manufactured in pakistan. I have just talked about he control aspect of the fighter- there are structural,propulsion issues that i havent even touched!
My point is,has the jf-17 venture enabled pakistani industry to undertake a research and development program of a new generation of fighters all by themselves?If the answer is yes then definitely those $400mn were well spent,but if it is no- then pakistan needs to do a LOT in terms of aerospace research!

Hi,

The thing over here is that Pakistan does not want to do it by themselves because of the resource and machinery amongst other things----they would have china as a partner. Even if Pakistan has all the information---it still does not make sense for them to do it alone----. They have found out that two brains work better than one---. The Chinese thinking and the Pakistan air force thinking----. Two extremely diverse personalities.

The 400 million dollars is extremely well spent---the icing on the cake would have been if they had procured an air superiority aircraft in 2003-04---and then kept working on the JF17----.

Technically---it is a big big success---strategically----it is a big big failure----. 72 F16's or 42 Rafale or 72 Grippen purchased in 2003 would have made both the sides sign the peace deal once for all----. India had major concerns about Pakistan's upcoming military strength at that time---.

If you had read the posts of many an intelligent people on this board----many a years ago---you would have found out that they had no CONCEPT OF HOW LONG IT TAKES TO INTEGRATE a brand new aircraft into the air force----.

These guys were thinking that within a year---the JF17 would be running circles around other aircraft---Pakistani pilots---the st-uds that they are---would jump in and make it happen---. And I think that the same thinking was with the Pakistan air force----because many of the posters here are well connected.

So---as there is no air superiority fighter---in that sense---the project is----I do not know where to put it---. So---there is a big hole in the inventory----there is an empty space gathering dust---.

I have stomach ache---but the doctor is giving me medicine to clear my eyes----.

 

[amardeep mishra]

They have found out that two brains work better than one---. The Chinese thinking and the Pakistan air force thinking----. Two extremely diverse personalities.

Hi @MastanKhan
Two brains might work better than one -i agree,but when it comes to sharing critical technologies no one really shares! I mean i am into aerospace research hence i know what exactly TOT means and how falsely it is interpreted by a lot of folks!
As for pakistan lacking a true air superiority fighter- i think it is primarily due to funding issues- i mean ,out of $41bn allocated for defence, IAF gets close to $12bn,I am sure the share of PAF in total pakistani defence budget would be significantly lesser than their indian counterpart. Now with such kind of budget how would you expect PAF or for that matter any other air force to have 4-5 squadrons of fuel guzzling twin engined air superiority fighter? In my opinion as and when the allocation to PAF increase ,they would inevitably go for twin engine planes- but i dont see that happening for at least next 1-1.5 decades!

 

[Bossman]

Hi @MastanKhan
Two brains might work better than one -i agree,but when it comes to sharing critical technologies no one really shares! I mean i am into aerospace research hence i know what exactly TOT means and how falsely it is interpreted by a lot of folks!
As for pakistan lacking a true air superiority fighter- i think it is primarily due to funding issues- i mean ,out of $41bn allocated for defence, IAF gets close to $12bn,I am sure the share of PAF in total pakistani defence budget would be significantly lesser than their indian counterpart. Now with such kind of budget how would you expect PAF or for that matter any other air force to have 4-5 squadrons of fuel guzzling twin engined air superiority fighter? In my opinion as and when the allocation to PAF increase ,they would inevitably go for twin engine planes- but i dont see that happening for at least next 1-1.5 decades!

Two fakes don't make a genuine. Mastaan+ Amardeep= Fake Squared

One sells lemons other is a lab monkey.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi @MastanKhan

As for pakistan lacking a true air superiority fighter- i think it is primarily due to funding issues- i mean ,out of $41bn allocated for defence, IAF gets close to $12bn,I am sure the share of PAF in total pakistani defence budget would be significantly lesser than their indian counterpart. Now with such kind of budget how would you expect PAF or for that matter any other air force to have 4-5 squadrons of fuel guzzling twin engined air superiority fighter? In my opinion as and when the allocation to PAF increase ,they would inevitably go for twin engine planes- but i dont see that happening for at least next 1-1.5 decades!

1) Who asked you to put IAF's budget on here as a show off? You people have such inferiority complex (new money) that you can't change. For over 70 years, with always having all kinds of numerical advantage, you still stand on the same spot. Can't really do jack shiit to Pakistan even with the much higher budget and numbers. So why even boast or bring up ineptness when there is no use or capability???

2) Now back to the topic on the PAF, what exactly do you thin the PAF can buy in the next 3 years? And then from 2020 on-wards? Let's see how much you REALLY know and therefore, your knowledge and comprehension of the strategy compels us to even consider your posts as worth noting?

Financials are not an issue, the government is putting focus on eliminating the electricity so the businesses can run at full speed and the internal economy can start to pick back up. By the beginning of 2018, the focus will change from just electricity to defense expansion, and other areas.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Two fakes don't make a genuine. Mastaan+ Amardeep= Fake Squared

One sells lemons other is a lab monkey.

My dear friend, your language is typical of your country and shows the absolutely awesome levels of education.I wont bother,what you call me. But kindly try to prove your point based on scientific reasoning

 

[Bossman]

My dear friend, your language is typical of your country and shows the absolutely awesome levels of education.I wont bother,what you call me. But kindly try to prove your point based on scientific reasoning

If you did not get my point, you are a brainless moron. There is no science in my statement. I have proven it many times before in my exchanges with you that you are a fake pretending to be some sort research scientist. You and Mastan are two of a kind, suffering from delusion of grandeur mental issues. One thinks he is some sort of military aviation strategist and the other has illusions of being aeronautical research engineer. Both do nothing but Google the Internet and post.

 

[Hyperion]

Even reliable jet engine technology is more complicated than searching for jinns (if they exist). Having said that, Lal Topi might have clues to finding them, and if we can, then jet engine and stealth technology is no problem at all. Unless Zahid sahib escapes on a flying white horse before we can interrogate him!

Is stealth technology more complicated than nuclear?

 

[vizier]

For long range multiple engagement you need aesa and for defense you need a drfm capable ecm package. For shorter ranges and jam missile seeker radars towed decoys would be necessary. If enclosed weapons pod is added that would further enhance survivability.

 

[MastanKhan]

My dear friend, your language is typical of your country and shows the absolutely awesome levels of education.I wont bother,what you call me. But kindly try to prove your point based on scientific reasoning

Hi,

Howard Stern the shock jock says that he has many a listeners who hate him with a passion----and they are the one who come back and listen to him more to what he is going to say next----. So---don't worry about bossman----he is just yapping around.

The years that we had sanctions---the funds were going to a piggy bank---so---2001 after 9/11---paf had enough to buy a 125 F16's on cash payment up front---.

 

[Bossman]

Hi,

Howard Stern the shock jock says that he has many a listeners who hate him with a passion----and they are the one who come back and listen to him more to what he is going to say next----. So---don't worry about bossman----he is just yapping around.

The years that we had sanctions---the funds were going to a piggy bank---so---2001 after 9/11---paf had enough to buy a 125 F16's on cash payment up front---.

Mastan,

If you use a statement from Howard Stern to prove your point, it is a very good reflection of your intellectual capacity. I think you have finally found a matured person who will take you seriously I.e Amardeep. You are mirror image of each other and will feed off each other. You both should see the same Doctor.

 

[Mutakalim]

but i dont see that happening for at least next 1-1.5 decades!

And that is based on scientific reasoning. Get a life man.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Even reliable jet engine technology is more complicated than searching for jinns (if they exist)

Absolutely correct, I've got a professor here who holds a patent on prediction of Combustion instability(mainly acoustic instability) in gas turbine engine. You know, the reason why kaveri engine couldn't deliver the requiste thrust is ssomething to do with acoustic instability when the frequency of swirling flame inside combustion chamber matches with natural vibrating frequency of Combustion chamber- this induces cyclic stresses in longitudinal direction- i.e. tensile and compression. Any turbomachinery rotating at 50000RPM and undergoing cyclic stresses won't really last long.