Kashmir-The Valley Of Tears.

[Jackdaws]

dude democratic gov means a gov for the people n by the people. and a democratic way which Democratic govs follow is taken by what majority of people say. that yr saying is what it is done in dictatorship as we have seen that in Pak itself so we have better idea about it.

And yes Pakistan was a British creation by Brainwashing Muslims against Hindus.

And 2 Nation Theory is just a Lie there is no place for it in Islam as basic Islamic philosophy is about Peace n unity of Humanity without any level of BS be it in religion, country,class or creed.

And it took us 60 years to realize that n yr curse/anger over State of Pakistan and British is justified. But its the same fault that you r doing in kashmir which is also cant be justified just like Creation of Pakistan in the name of Islam by breaking the Unity of United India.



Only indians joining it Not kashmiris. we r separate Identity.

Yr not having it but actually yr just occupying it.
Lets c How long u can do that

I have underlined and made bold the part in which you define democracy. This definition of democracy is wrong.

a. A majority of people in the US believed that slavery was right. That does not mean the African Americans should continue to be slaves.

b. A majority - both men and women - once believed women had no place in sports, politics or the workplace. Women had to fight for those rights.

c. Even today in most parts of the world, equal rights are denied to gay people because a majority of people frown or are downright disgusted by it.

A democracy, if it indeed is a democracy can't be held ransom by a majority view point. What is sacrosanct in a democracy is the right of an individual citizen to lead his or her life as per her preferences.

If I take your view then Sikhs, Christians, Parsis etc. too should only follow what the majority Hindu think in India. The Shias and Ahmadiyas should be second class citizens in Pakistan. In fact, your view point pretty much validates the reason why the Nazis conducted the Holocaust. After all, a majority of Germans believed in their racial superiority and that Jews needed to be exterminated.

So once again - the rights of the minority are not dependent on the views of the majority in a democracy.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Again this is not rooted in history at all. Amongst the princely states left untouched were Nepal, Sikkim and Bhutan - all predominantly Hindu-Buddhist states. Kashmir too was left untouched - probably because Mountbatten wanted all small northern kingdoms to be buffer states between India and China.

India did not support the Maharaja - you just invaded Kashmir forcing him to sign up with India.

dude i already posted the actual history. the Govs always dont tell everything true to their people.
actually Buffer Zone was the Valley of Kashmir B/w Pakistan and India in south Asia and the Tribal Belt of Pakistan With Afghanistan for tomorrow fighting the Soviats If u read the Book Of Yr Molanna abdul kalam azad india wins freedom and the great game.........(i dont remember the full name). the China was in the British pocket then n it was a sudden revolution.

So actually it was Pak n india always.

This Anti China propaganda is done by america in yr country because the america hopes to save its capitalism from the mighty Chinese Communism n its economy so its basically using india which is also a big country in population n size to infiltrate the Chinese effect in its west.Thats why we see americans investing so much in indian economy to make it large enough to control
the Mighty n fastest growing Chinese economy so that tomorrow they dont effect or influence the american influence in the world.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

That's why I suggested an independent Kashmir state(if all else fails) the thing is you're the only buffer(piece of land) we have against Pak/CN so we can't allow Kashmir to be a part of any of those two! I suggest you vote for me in the next elections as to when I become PM I promise to resolve this longstanding issue between us

Yes i know but will u allow it in the first hand???? As shown in the video u put pressure on Nepal to not host the both sides of Kashmiri leaders.

Pakistan always say that Kashmir must be solved with the wishes of Kashmiris without any influence.
So u should accept it Even if the chose Pakistan.
The Choice Should be entirely ours.

I have underlined and made bold the part in which you define democracy. This definition of democracy is wrong.

a. A majority of people in the US believed that slavery was right. That does not mean the African Americans should continue to be slaves.

b. A majority - both men and women - once believed women had no place in sports, politics or the workplace. Women had to fight for those rights.

c. Even today in most parts of the world, equal rights are denied to gay people because a majority of people frown or are downright disgusted by it.

A democracy, if it indeed is a democracy can't be held ransom by a majority view point. What is sacrosanct in a democracy is the right of an individual citizen to lead his or her life as per her preferences.

If I take your view then Sikhs, Christians, Parsis etc. too should only follow what the majority Hindu think in India. The Shias and Ahmadiyas should be second class citizens in Pakistan. In fact, your view point pretty much validates the reason why the Nazis conducted the Holocaust. After all, a majority of Germans believed in their racial superiority and that Jews needed to be exterminated.

So once again - the rights of the minority are not dependent on the views of the majority in a democracy.

First let me tell u one thing. Should i answer u about it in trolling or with logic??

Answer me then i wil tell u things in a different angle.

 

[R0H1T]

Yes i know but will u allow it in the first hand???? As shown in the video u put pressure on Nepal to not host the both sides of Kashmiri leaders.

Pakistan always say that Kashmir must be solved with the wishes of Kashmiris without any influence.
So u should accept it Even if the chose Pakistan.
The Choice Should be entirely ours.

The thing is can you guarantee there will not be another hostile invasion like Kargil once Pak annexes you? If you can't the deal's off the table ! Besides if they(Pak) really wanted to solve this issue it would have been done long ago, Kashmir is the reason why Pak army is still at the helm of affairs in Pak & it is for this very reason they won't solve it

 

[Jackdaws]

Another thing Pakistanis don't take into account is psyche. Pakistanis continue to call Indian occupiers of Kashmir. Now, the German population knew they were occupying France, Netherlands, Denmark etc. The Soviet Union knew they were occupying Afghanistan. The Americans know they are occupying Iraq. So it is easy for the general population to become detached and be fine with withdrawal. In Kashmir, Pakistan has been calling Indians occupiers but Indians don't see it that way. Just like the Israelis don't see themselves as occupiers in Jerusalem or the Brits don't see themselves as occupiers in the Falklands.

 

[AHAM BRIHMASMI]

there r no terrorists in kashmir there r just freedom fighters there as its their brother in religion who committed one of the most brutal war crimes of all times so its obvious that there will be some kicks in their @$$ by the local population and for their support for indian operation n their support for indian army's crimes against Muslims.

Kashmir is a more then 80% Muslim population. So in a democratic way the majority ios the authority.So a minority of hindus n their so called sufferings dont contain any wait.

when Kashmir will be liberated in the Future then like in 1947 the non muslims will be send to india.
So they will be send to join their like minded people for Good.

as india claims to be a Democratic country that too worlds biggest one So she will understand that.

But well as we aw in the video that India herself dont want the Kashmir issue to be Solved so it is As responsible for non muslim so called killings as it is for Muslims.

@Umair Nawaz and icewolf,
by your logic kashmiri mushlims are only 2% of total indian population and over all muslims are around 18%. so majority must be authority in india also . And the minority who will take side of pakistan will be kicked in a@@ as you mentioned. and suffering of minority as per your bizarre and barbaric arabian logic should not contain any weight. so why you guys are crying a river. we are behaving ( as per your propaganda laced with white and shameful lie and religious hate) exactly in the same way as you would have behaved with us.
More ever we are a secular state and not a hindu state, so we have every right to keep population of any religion are ethnicity, but since pakistan is a muslim country, It has no right to rule even a single non muslim population and it should immediately make independent the areas and pockets which have non muslim majority population. ( of course by your own logic. )

And mind it for once and all, there is no issue named kashmir for us people,it was an indian state and will be for ever, over millions of religious bigots like you have born, cried and abused and died and koi hamari j@@nt tak nahi ukhad paya,

 

[Umair Nawaz]

The thing is can you guarantee there will not be another hostile invasion like Kargil once Pak annexes you? If you can't the deal's off the table ! Besides if they(Pak) really wanted to solve this issue it would have been done long ago, Kashmir is the reason why Pak army is still at the helm of affairs in Pak & it is for this very reason they won't solve it

Pakistan right now is not an issue. The point in my post is b/w u n us.

If i take yr say as true then why with Pres Musharaf who is a Army man u had reached into a solution in that aspect.Even today the Pak army is pushing into a solution with yr gov n tell me tell u that not many in india know it that right now yr gov trusts only Pak army in pakistan for solving the issues.

Regardless of all the trolling me in PDF done by me for just a sake of fun but actually im a biggest supporter of Indian rule in Kashmir Valley do u know why??? Because the West want Kashmir because its the most highest point in the Entire South asia.
Do u know that out of top 30 peaks in the World 13 lie in Pakistan ie Gilgit Balistan including K2 the second highest peak in the world. Who ever controls it controls entire Asia. If u set yr Radars there then u can watch entire Asia.
Do u know in around 2005 America has asked Pakistan to give them land in Deosai Plateau for making a Larger air base which will host their latest Stealth aircrafts so that they can have a eye on India,CA and China in the region.And mind u that this plateau is the second highest plateau in the world n it is so big that a survey was done in 90s by a foreign agency and it said that Pakistan can host winter Olympics here alone. Offcourse we had rejected it because we had feared that they will bomb our nukes from here or will use it to put an eye over our nukes.
So basically our nukes save u there.And this is a reason why America has started these fassads in that Area n just recently an american parliament group had offered them the Gov of Gilgit-Baltistan that if they want to get separated from Pakistan then the Americans will support them

so its very obvious that if Kashmir gets Liberated as a Separate Country then the Land will be used By America against us(U n us) because it will be newly independent state and it will need support n its obvious that it will not be friend with Pak and India as it will gain its independence from us.

This is what we think in Pakistan n Your Government in India thinks.

Dont judge me by reading just trolling posts/threads in PDF (that i do for fun because ap logo ko Tang krny main boht maza ata ha im actually enjoy u guys company)as im a Kashmiti so i dont like u anyway and I have my Father who is Lt Gen Retrd from Pak Army. So im a Pakistani-Kashmiri.


But u Rohit had advised me before in this Forum too if u remember n since then i consider u my friend so i couldnt troll with u and im forced to burst my cover

The development n Future of the Valley of Kashmir in Indian hands is safe n their modernization and development is guaranteed there n the Area which is under our Control has its future in same way is with us only.

So Chill

@Umair Nawaz and icewolf,
by your logic kashmiri mushlims are only 2% of total indian population and over all muslims are around 18%. so majority must be authority in india also . And the minority who will take side of pakistan will be kicked in a@@ as you mentioned. and suffering of minority as per your bizarre and barbaric arabian logic should not contain any weight. so why you guys are crying a river. we are behaving ( as per your propaganda laced with white and shameful lie and religious hate) exactly in the same way as you would have behaved with us.
More ever we are a secular state and not a hindu state, so we have every right to keep population of any religion are ethnicity, but since pakistan is a muslim country, It has no right to rule even a single non muslim population and it should immediately make independent the areas and pockets which have non muslim majority population. ( of course by your own logic. )

And mind it for once and all, there is no issue named kashmir for us people,it was an indian state and will be for ever, over millions of religious bigots like you have born, cried and abused and died and koi hamari j@@nt tak nahi ukhad paya,

Meri jan wo atleast 31 cror hain ap k mulk main that makes it b/w 17-18% of the population of 1.2 billion.

Another thing Pakistanis don't take into account is psyche. Pakistanis continue to call Indian occupiers of Kashmir. Now, the German population knew they were occupying France, Netherlands, Denmark etc. The Soviet Union knew they were occupying Afghanistan. The Americans know they are occupying Iraq. So it is easy for the general population to become detached and be fine with withdrawal. In Kashmir, Pakistan has been calling Indians occupiers but Indians don't see it that way. Just like the Israelis don't see themselves as occupiers in Jerusalem or the Brits don't see themselves as occupiers in the Falklands.

meri jan refer to post#67

 

[AHAM BRIHMASMI]

Pakistan right now is not an issue. The point in my post is b/w u n us.

If i take yr say as true then why with Pres Musharaf who is a Army man u had reached into a solution in that aspect.Even today the Pak army is pushing into a solution with yr gov n tell me tell u that not many in india know it that right now yr gov trusts only Pak army in pakistan for solving the issues.

Regardless of all the trolling me in PDF done by me for just a sake of fun but actually im a biggest supporter of Indian rule in Kashmir Valley do u know why??? Because the West want Kashmir because its the most highest point in the Entire South asia.
Do u know that out of top 30 peaks in the World 13 lie in Pakistan ie Gilgit Balistan including K2 the second highest peak in the world. Who ever controls it controls entire Asia. If u set yr Radars there then u can watch entire Asia.
Do u know in around 2005 America has asked Pakistan to give them land in Deosai Plateau for making a Larger air base which will host their latest Stealth aircrafts so that they can have a eye on India,CA and China in the region.And mind u that this plateau is the second highest plateau in the world n it is so big that a survey was done in 90s by a foreign agency and it said that Pakistan can host winter Olympics here alone. Offcourse we had rejected it because we had feared that they will bomb our nukes from here or will use it to put an eye over our nukes.
So basically our nukes save u there.And this is a reason why America has started these fassads in that Area n just recently an american parliament group had offered them the Gov of Gilgit-Baltistan that if they want to get separated from Pakistan then the Americans will support them

so its very obvious that if Kashmir gets Liberated as a Separate Country then the Land will be used By America against us(U n us) because it will be newly independent state and it will need support n its obvious that it will not be friend with Pak and India as it will gain its independence from us.

This is what we think in Pakistan n Your Government in India thinks.

Dont judge me by reading just trolling posts/threads in PDF (that i do for fun because ap logo ko Tang krny main boht maza ata ha im actually enjoy u guys company)as im a Kashmiti so i dont like u anyway and I have my Father who is Lt Gen Retrd from Pak Army. So im a Pakistani-Kashmiri.


But u Rohit had advised me before in this Forum too if u remember n since then i consider u my friend so i couldnt troll with u and im forced to burst my cover

The development n Future of the Valley of Kashmir in Indian hands is safe n their modernization and development is guaranteed there n the Area which is under our Control has its future in same way is with us only.

So Chill



Meri jan wo atleast 31 cror hain ap k mulk main that makes it b/w 17-18% of the population of 1.2 billion.


meri jan refer to post#67

only for the bold part......
meri jan, pahle padh to liya kijiye puri chiz ko, lekin aapka bhi kya kasur, hamesha maulvi ke batai line ratne ki aadat rahi hai aapki, kabhi kitab kholkar khud se dekha nahi ki kya likha hai.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

only for the bold part......
meri jan, pahle padh to liya kijiye puri chiz ko, lekin aapka bhi kya kasur, hamesha maulvi ke batai line ratne ki aadat rahi hai aapki, kabhi kitab kholkar khud se dekha nahi ki kya likha hai.

Khuda k waste ap to kam az kam ye na kaho.

Ap too khud itna darty ho zakir naik sy k us k forum main ja kr sawal b nai puch sakte

 

[R0H1T]

@Umair Nawaz

To be absolutely brutally honest, if it were in my hands I would ask for a plebiscite in Kashmir so as to determine what the majority of people there really want ! This thing about J&K being an integral part of Ind is total B$ cause as long as the people from J&K are suffering you really cannot ask them to stay with the Ind Union against their will, this is just wrong !

Now to the real problem, how do we solve this ? As citizens we cannot however if the whole of Kashmir(not just Iok) gets united & asks for freedom I'm sure there can be a resolution to all of this perhaps with the backing of the UN ! The only precondition being that the majority of native Kashmiris must accept the solution !

The crux of the matter is that no matter how big of a golden cage you build, the bird in it will always want to venture outside of that ! I hope you remember this & look for a peaceful way outta this $hitty mess that our forefathers left us to deal with

 

[AHAM BRIHMASMI]

Khuda k waste ap to ka az kam ye na kaho.

Apto khud itna darty ho zakir naik sy k us k forum main ja kr sawal b nai puch sakte

Wo isliye ki ham hamesha se khud ki padhi aur padhne ke baad reasoning aur logic par kasi hui baato par bharosa karne ke aadi rahe hai, kisi bigot maulvi ki farebi baato par nahi aaye.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

@Umair Nawaz

To be absolutely brutally honest, if it were in my hands I would ask for a plebiscite in Kashmir so as to determine what the majority of people there really want ! This thing about J&K being an integral part of Ind is total B$ cause as long as the people from J&K are suffering you really cannot ask them to stay with the Ind Union against their will, this is just wrong !

Now to the real problem, how do we solve this ? As citizens we cannot however if the whole of Kashmir(not just Iok) gets united & asks for freedom I'm sure there can be a resolution to all of this perhaps with the backing of the UN ! The only precondition being that the majority of native Kashmiris must accept the solution !

The crux of the matter is that no matter how big of a golden case you build, the bird in it will always want to venture outside of that ! I hope you remember this & look for a peaceful way outta this $hitty mess that our forefathers left us to deal with

I feel total liberation from pakistan n india is not a solution.
Now if the question is if we get liberated from everyone then what will we do??
We have just 3 neighbors and we r land locked too!!!!!
Also we dont have much domestic resources in Kashmir so that we would afford Some good Armed Forces against our enemy India if we exclude Pak and China. Further more how will be trade with the world??
And without it the country cant grow.for that we will have to go to America or NATO and we all know they only look for a chance for exploitation.Like i told u about deosai plateau n american eye for it then they will have entire Valley in their door step begging them for aide n economic help then they will install all their spy equipment, Drones, ABs Stealth planes, Radars n only God knows what else in this region to blackmail us(the countries in this region).
Look we dont want another Country like what past Pakistan used to be in this region.

So at-least right now what India should do is win the people of kashmir on its side n end the hostilities against China,pakistan and focus on the West which is our real enemy and same goes for Pak And China.


Just by saying we want Freedom doesnt work.
So personally im against total liberation.

So Chill

Wo isliye ki ham hamesha se khud ki padhi aur padhne ke baad reasoning aur logic par kasi hui baato par bharosa karne ke aadi rahe hai, kisi bigot maulvi ki farebi baato par nahi aaye.

ok g ...........

 

[R0H1T]

I feel total liberation from pakistan n india is not a solution.
Now if the question is if we get liberated from everyone then what will we do??
We have just 3 neighbors and we r land locked too!!!!!
Also we dont have much domestic resources in Kashmir so that we would afford Some good Armed Forces against our enemy India if we exclude Pak and China. Further more how will be trade with the world??
And without it the country cant grow.for that we will have to go to America or NATO and we all know they only look for a chance for exploitation.Like i told u about deosai plateau n american eye for it then they will have entire Valley in their door step begging them for aide n economic help then they will install all their spy equipment, Drones, ABs Stealth planes, Radars n only God knows what else in this region to blackmail us(the countries in this region).
Look we dont want another Country like what past Pakistan used to be in this region.

So at-least right now what India should do is win the people of kashmir on its side n end the hostilities against China,pakistan and focus on the West which is our real enemy and same goes for Pak And China.


Just by saying we want Freedom doesnt work.
So personally im against total liberation.

So Chill



ok g ...........

As they say where there's a Will there's a way, now assuming we're talking about an independent entity(Kashmir) here I'll give you a solution that may work ~

1) Nepal is also landlocked & even worse when it comes to transportation, comparatively you have better roads/railways on all three sides so this is pretty much a non issue as far as I'm concerned !

2) You don't need an army if everyone(big 3) at the negotiating table signs a peace treaty ratified by the UN, anyone violating that must face sanctions !

3) You have tourism & some of the world's finest orchards not to mention plentiful water resources, that should help you build a strong economy in the long run just like SL/Maldives/Seychelles/Mauritius which also depend on tourism alot !

4) When you have the big 3 on your side do you really think the US will dare put anything for global surveillance over there

If all the 4 parties in question want a solution then really sky is the only limit to what will undoubtedly be the Asian century

 

[Dushmann]

As they say where there's a Will there's a way, now assuming we're talking about an independent entity(Kashmir) here I'll give you a solution that may work ~

1) Nepal is also landlocked & even worse when it comes to transportation, comparatively you have better roads/railways on all three sides so this is pretty much a non issue as far as I'm concerned !

2) You don't need an army if everyone(big 3) at the negotiating table signs a peace treaty ratified by the UN, anyone violating that must face sanctions !

3) You have tourism & some of the world's finest orchards not to mention plentiful water resources, that should help you build a strong economy in the long run just like SL/Maldives/Seychelles/Mauritius which also depend on tourism alot !

4) When you have the big 3 on your side do you really think the US will dare put anything for global surveillance over there

If all the 4 parties in question want a solution then really sky is the only limit to what will undoubtedly be the Asian century

and then the prince and princess rode on unicorn flying to their crystal palace on top of chocolate mountain with toffi trees and lived there forever making babies all days and nights.

 

[R0H1T]

and then the prince and princess rode on unicorn and went to their crystal palace on top of chocolate mountain with toffi trees and lived there forever making babies all days and nights.

Now you're just making me sad
What's the harm in wishful thinking especially if it brings peace to all of us ?